20 Shoes of Pre-Shuffled Touch Cards

[Pando]

Hi everyone

Here are 20 Touch Shoes using pre-shuffled cards from a casino in New Zealand

The cards were Bee brand from USA

Please read the shoes downwards

The maximum IAR was 9

Hope these are useful

regards and Happy New Year

Pando

3 6 2 1 4 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 6 2 2 2 3 1 3 2

2 4 1 2 1 3 1 3 1 1 3 5 1 2 1 2 4 4 1 1

1 1 2 1 1 1 1 3 2 9 3 1 4 2 2 1 2 3 2 4

1 2 7 1 1 3 1 1 8 3 7 2 3 1 2 1 2 1 1 2

2 2 1 3 3 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 5 1

4 3 1 1 1 1 3 4 8 4 2 1 1 1 1 5 1 1 2 5

2 2 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 5 3 1 3 1 1 1 1 2 1

1 1 1 3 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 3 1 1 1

1 1 3 1 2 3 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 7 1 2 1

1 1 3 1 3 1 1 1 3 4 2 3 8 7 1 3 1 1 3 1

2 1 4 1 3 4 2 2 2 1 3 1 2 1 4 2 3 4 1 1

3 1 3 2 1 2 3 5 2 1 2 1 2 2 3 1 1 1 1 2

3 2 2 1 1 2 3 1 2 2 2 1 2 1 3 1 1 2 1 5

2 1 1 3 2 3 2 1 2 1 1 3 2 2 4 1 5 1 1 1

1 1 1 1 2 1 1 5 3 3 3 1 2 2 1 2 3 1 1 1

1 1 1 1 5 1 2 1 1 4 3 2 2 1 1 2 1 1 2 1

1 1 1 4 1 1 1 3 4 2 1 1 6 1 3 1 7 1 1 2

1 1 1 1 1 1 5 2 1 1 4 2 1 3 3 1 1 1 1 1

1 4 1 3 1 2 1 1 3 5 2 1 1 2 7 1 1 6 1 1

2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 3 1 4 5 4 2 2 2 1 2 1

4 3 1 3 3 1 2 1 2 1 9 1 3 2 1 1 2 2 3 1

1 3 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 2 2 5 1 1 2 2 2 1 1

3 2 1 1 1 2 4 2 2 1 6 3 1 1 1 2 2 4 3 1

2 9 1 1 1 1 5 2 4 1 1 1 1 1 9 1 1 5 1 2

1 1 1 1 1 4 2 1 2 2 2 1 1 2 2 2 1 1 1 1

1 1 1 2 5 2 2 4 2 1 2 3 2 3 6 3 1 3 1

1 3 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 2 2 1

3 1 1 4 1 2 1 2 1 3 1 1 3 2 4 2

1 1 1 2 1 2 5 7 1 1 2 6 2

1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1

1 2 1 2 2 1 1 1 3 2 2

6 4 2 1 3 1 1 2 2 1 1

1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 1

3 1 3 1 2 1 5 1 5 1 3

1 2 1 4 2 1 1 2 2 1

1 1 2 1 2 5 1

1 2 2 1 1 1 2

1 2 1 1 4 2

1 1 2 2 1 3

1 1 4 1 2 2

2 4 3

1 1

1

[ECD]

Thanks for your trouble mate.

Just curious...How does MDB+ go when playing these shoes?

[Pando]

I started MDB+ on non touch shoes that have either continuous shuffler

or automatic shuffler. I won the required units at the first 2 levels as per

Ellis guidelines.

I then moved up to $50 units (being conservative) with the touch cards

which are pre-shuffled.

As Ellis told us the shoes are quite different. The deviation away from the

statistical expectation is lower in the pre-shuffled shoes I have played, in

other words they generally stay closer to what the expectation is (% of 1's 2's etc)

So you still have to make sure the shoe is an MDB+ shoe (rather than a NOR shoe)

so that you are in the right system. If there is a strong bias (say high 1's then its a NOR shoe)

and MDB+ does not apply and NOR is the best bet.

However the MDB+ shoes that I have played average +4 units per shoe, almost 5 units

now actually.

Its all about selecting the right shoe/table and using the right technique

It works for me

regards

Pando

[dcurllll]

Thank you pando for sharing your bac shoes...when reading your shoes vertically for each column, do the decisions start with player or banker?

Thank you.....

[brad01]

hi Pando thanks for posting those shoes it gave me easy opportunity to practise mdb+ on these. I played the first 10 so far and results are below.

1. +2

2. +6

3. +4

4. +7

5. +3

6. +4

7. +3

8. +10

9. +9

10. +3

That's an average of 5 units per shoe, no losing shoes, no lost progression, only went to a 4 bet 5 times.

I have made a few personal changes - wait for 3 2's as trigger not 2 2's as don't like that trigger much - and a few more. Careful placing bets after event 25 especially when looking for 3+'s as too risky shoe will end before progression.

I feel nearly confident to play for real?

What does anyone think on the results and is a few weeks too soon?

[Pando]

Hey Thanks brad01

Yep that's pretty close to what I had with slightly different triggers to yours

I practiced for months before I played any baccarat, but MDB+ is easy to play

thanks to Ellis and his clear guidelines

I just watch out for shoes that are deficient in some way, either too many or

too little of 1'2, or 2's or 3's etc. These shoes often tend to hold their trend.

If these happen then I quit the shoe.

cheers

Pando

[brad01]

Yeah it is easy being mechanical but the last 10 shoes were little harder and got stopped out on 2 or 3 of them when they produce 6 2's in a row etc.

Think Im gonna go back thru and play them with nor to compare.

The casinos are mixing it up well and throwing everything at us.

[Pando]

Hi brad01

Ellis always tells us that although MDB+ is a mechanical system, its not advised

to act like a headless chicken all the time, we must also think our way through the

shoes. You are correct to say casino's throw everything at us and we must be on

our guard for changes in the shoe as well as the shoes being different to each other.

Here is a touch shoe from yesterday which I believe has 3 character changes in it

P13223211334/122112121/5715141115

I have put the / in the figures as that is where I believed the shoe changed

its character. I used the SAP count to help me track the changes and decide

which method to use.

MDB+ worked well in the first section and then it changed to a NOR shoe.

The best bet then was a 1,2 progression on opposites.

Then after that it was still a NOR shoe but the betting was flat betting on the run,

following the 4's, 5's and 7's on the run.

It worked well for me, maybe I could have done better??

regards

Pando

[brad01]

Thanks for that Pando it is very valuable advice for me.

You seem to have picked up things pretty fast - hopefully I can learn as fast as you.

I think to be a good NOR player it takes a while compared to MDB as Ellis says it can be learnt in half an hr.

I would say Australian and possibly NZ casinos are tough to beat as they produce tough games.

No competition like other parts of the world.

[ECD]

Hi brad01

Ellis always tells us that although MDB+ is a mechanical system, its not advised

to act like a headless chicken all the time, we must also think our way through the

shoes. You are correct to say casino's throw everything at us and we must be on

our guard for changes in the shoe as well as the shoes being different to each other.

Here is a touch shoe from yesterday which I believe has 3 character changes in it

P13223211334/122112121/5715141115

I have put the / in the figures as that is where I believed the shoe changed

its character. I used the SAP count to help me track the changes and decide

which method to use.

MDB+ worked well in the first section and then it changed to a NOR shoe.

The best bet then was a 1,2 progression on opposites.

Then after that it was still a NOR shoe but the betting was flat betting on the run,

following the 4's, 5's and 7's on the run.

It worked well for me, maybe I could have done better??

regards

Pando

A shoe which changes like this is usually great for MDB+. This shoe wins 6 of 6 MDB+ signals.

[Pando]

Thanks way2fast

I got a bit cautious with MDB+ in the middle section with so many 2's

and 1's and nothing else

But you are right, it won 6 from 6 signals

regards

Pando

[Pando]

I think the shoes are the same anywhere where the casino uses pre-shuffled cards.

The cards are produced in USA and exported worldwide, so there is a common element there

for any casino who uses them.

regards

Pando

Thanks for that Pando it is very valuable advice for me.

You seem to have picked up things pretty fast - hopefully I can learn as fast as you.

I think to be a good NOR player it takes a while compared to MDB as Ellis says it can be learnt in half an hr.

I would say Australian and possibly NZ casinos are tough to beat as they produce tough games.

No competition like other parts of the world.

[brad01]

They must be computer generated right?

You can see what looks like sections in the shoe where it changes the pattern like its got a bunch of pre programmed patterns and it switches several times throughout the shoe.

If you think about the companies who are doing this as a business it must all be automated and run by computers - they feed the cards into the shuffle machines, set the programs and then its spits out decks of preshuffled cards.

maybe if we think about how the programs work we can start to see the changes in the shoe - there seems to always be a section with just 1's and 2's and then a section with a few long runs and 1's.

What do you think?

[Guest]

Hi everyone

Here are 20 Touch Shoes using pre-shuffled cards from a casino in New Zealand

The cards were Bee brand from USA

Please read the shoes downwards

The maximum IAR was 9

Hope these are useful

regards and Happy New Year

Pando

3 6 2 1 4 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 6 2 2 2 3 1 3 2

2 4 1 2 1 3 1 3 1 1 3 5 1 2 1 2 4 4 1 1

1 1 2 1 1 1 1 3 2 9 3 1 4 2 2 1 2 3 2 4

1 2 7 1 1 3 1 1 8 3 7 2 3 1 2 1 2 1 1 2

2 2 1 3 3 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 5 1

4 3 1 1 1 1 3 4 8 4 2 1 1 1 1 5 1 1 2 5

2 2 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 5 3 1 3 1 1 1 1 2 1

1 1 1 3 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 3 1 2 1 1 3 1 1 1

1 1 3 1 2 3 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 3 1 1 7 1 2 1

1 1 3 1 3 1 1 1 3 4 2 3 8 7 1 3 1 1 3 1

2 1 4 1 3 4 2 2 2 1 3 1 2 1 4 2 3 4 1 1

3 1 3 2 1 2 3 5 2 1 2 1 2 2 3 1 1 1 1 2

3 2 2 1 1 2 3 1 2 2 2 1 2 1 3 1 1 2 1 5

2 1 1 3 2 3 2 1 2 1 1 3 2 2 4 1 5 1 1 1

1 1 1 1 2 1 1 5 3 3 3 1 2 2 1 2 3 1 1 1

1 1 1 1 5 1 2 1 1 4 3 2 2 1 1 2 1 1 2 1

1 1 1 4 1 1 1 3 4 2 1 1 6 1 3 1 7 1 1 2

1 1 1 1 1 1 5 2 1 1 4 2 1 3 3 1 1 1 1 1

1 4 1 3 1 2 1 1 3 5 2 1 1 2 7 1 1 6 1 1

2 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 3 1 4 5 4 2 2 2 1 2 1

4 3 1 3 3 1 2 1 2 1 9 1 3 2 1 1 2 2 3 1

1 3 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 2 2 5 1 1 2 2 2 1 1

3 2 1 1 1 2 4 2 2 1 6 3 1 1 1 2 2 4 3 1

2 9 1 1 1 1 5 2 4 1 1 1 1 1 9 1 1 5 1 2

1 1 1 1 1 4 2 1 2 2 2 1 1 2 2 2 1 1 1 1

1 1 1 2 5 2 2 4 2 1 2 3 2 3 6 3 1 3 1

1 3 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 2 2 2 1

3 1 1 4 1 2 1 2 1 3 1 1 3 2 4 2

1 1 1 2 1 2 5 7 1 1 2 6 2

1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1

1 2 1 2 2 1 1 1 3 2 2

6 4 2 1 3 1 1 2 2 1 1

1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 1

3 1 3 1 2 1 5 1 5 1 3

1 2 1 4 2 1 1 2 2 1

1 1 2 1 2 5 1

1 2 2 1 1 1 2

1 2 1 1 4 2

1 1 2 2 1 3

1 1 4 1 2 2

2 4 3

1 1

1

An interesting table produced here with 20 shoes: Very revealing:

With MDB+ I don't think it matters whether the shoe happens to start with P or B.

It is the events we are interested in whether they happen to be P or B events.

Here is what I find intersting:

When you read the columns vertically, as intended, you tend to see "super random" exactly what MDB+ is designed to defeat.

And it does, 10 out of 10.

But, for the fun of it, try reading the columns across instead of down.

Ha, now you see super biased. See that?

See, if the cards were truly random, they would look just as random across as they look down, wouldn't they.

But they don't, do they.

Because, reading down, the cards are not "random" they are "super random" - more random than the normal random envelope.

That is exactly what gives MDB+ its edge: When cards are super random, betting "on" random gives you better than a 50/50 hit rate, just as we have demonstrated countless times now.

But if you read across instead of down, now the shoes suddenly become rather perfect NOR shoes - highly biased.

This gives you a rather graphic picture of what we are doing with Baccarat in general:

We are consistently (both NOR AND MDB+) using the casino's own cheating against them - just as we do in BJ.

Interestingly, if casinos simply stopped cheating - started actually shuffling all cards to a random condition - Baccarat would not be beatable!

Ha, but then BJ would suddenly become even more beatable because Basic Strategy alone beats random cards.

We've sorta got them between a rock and a hard place - hmm, "Hardrock".

[Guest]

hi Pando thanks for posting those shoes it gave me easy opportunity to practise mdb+ on these. I played the first 10 so far and results are below.

1. +2

2. +6

3. +4

4. +7

5. +3

6. +4

7. +3

8. +10

9. +9

10. +3

That's an average of 5 units per shoe, no losing shoes, no lost progression, only went to a 4 bet 5 times.

I have made a few personal changes - wait for 3 2's as trigger not 2 2's as don't like that trigger much - and a few more. Careful placing bets after event 25 especially when looking for 3+'s as too risky shoe will end before progression.

I feel nearly confident to play for real?

What does anyone think on the results and is a few weeks too soon?

We are spoiled now! We sorta take winning 10 out of 10 for granted now because we see it so often.

Actually, in the overall scheme of things, it is VERY rare.

Winning 10 out of 10 with a 15 bet progression is ONE thing.

But winning 10 out of 10 with a 3 bet progression is quite another.

See, winning 10 out of 10 with a 15 bet progression merely takes heroics.

But winning 10 out of 10 with a 3 bet progression takes SKILL.

Most Bac instructors would say it is impossible. But that is because they only know "heroics". They have no concept of "skill". In fact, they don't even realize that skill exists in Baccarat.

This reminds me of that "Bank Only" player who was posting his Chicago shoe results on ImSpirit.

Both Virtuoid and I told him that it was just a question of time before disaster struck.

But it is impossible to argue with someone who is $26,000 ahead! - and mistakes a 20 bet progression as skill.

But then, as if on que, disaster did, in fact, strike! He lost the whole $26,000, and considerably more, in ONE Player favorable shoe.

Worse, he did it with one of our members watching!

But, it is just as I told him: If you lack the skill to win with a 3 bet progression, you lack the skill to win period.

The game is not about how much you bet - it is about how often you bet the right side.

Bank may, in deed, have the better odds. But that doesn't always make it the best bet.

Sure, in the long run Player only wins 49% of the hands.

But we don't play the game in the long run. We play in individual shoes - a lot of which, Player wins.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Ellis

[ECD]

The 13 1's in column #3 would have clipped me. How often is it to see 13 1's in pre-shuffled cards?

[brad01]

Would you have used anything from the 13 1's to trigger a bet?

From my limited knowledge of MDB+ it would not be a trigger?

Therefore this type of stuff wouldnt affect MDB+ as we wait for specific triggers until we place a bet and ignore anything in between?

There are some weird things that seem to happen in these preshuffled shoes like what I said below when the computer program hits a different pattern sequence and they throw in something weird. I'm not sure what the reasoning is - maybe to confuse people or bait people into betting repeats.

It sort of works because we are asking the question?

[ECD]

ONE of my weaknesses which I fall prey to is "OMG my bet is due". In my limited year and a half experience of playing baccarat, I don't think I saw that many 1's iar. If I saw seven or eight 1's coming out iar, I would start betting the 1 would go to 2. I know it isn't a trigger, but in this world of random pre-shuffled cards we live in it would be a logical bet. My "logical bet" that I fall prey to is undisciplined and what separates me from the disciplined winner.

Would you have used anything from the 13 1's to trigger a bet?

From my limited knowledge of MDB+ it would not be a trigger?

Therefore this type of stuff wouldnt affect MDB+ as we wait for specific triggers until we place a bet and ignore anything in between?

There are some weird things that seem to happen in these preshuffled shoes like what I said below when the computer program hits a different pattern sequence and they throw in something weird. I'm not sure what the reasoning is - maybe to confuse people or bait people into betting repeats.

It sort of works because we are asking the question?

[Pando]

I am only answering because I started the thread. Others who are better

qualified and more experienced may offer their views too.

I have to say that 13 1's IAR is NOT uncommon, in fact its expected to

happen sometimes, its randomness.

Refer back to a previous thread I posted where I saw 22 bankers in a row.

That is more unexpected.

Imagine if you chase the 1 going to a 2 for say 10 consecutive bets. You loose

big time, very quickly.

Now imagine you flat bet 10 consecutive bets for 1 to stay 1. You win 10 units

and only loose 1 unit when the sequence ends.

I know what I would rather do

cheers

Pando

[ECD]

I understand what you are saying. You are playing with the advantage of KNOWING that there are 13 1's out there. Put a cover over the shoe and play it when you don't know what the next outcome is. If you look at the previous sequences, it is totally random. I would have tried to keep in line with the random shoe and would have got clipped.

[Pando]

Actually no, I use 3 as the trigger point.

So if I am playing NOR, as soon as I get 3 IAR, then I flat bet until it loses.

It can only loose once.