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Hi everyone

I just joined the family last week and been reading through the manuals, forums, I got some questions which confuses me made me can't continue.

1. For the NOR+, you are always talking U1D2 or U1D1, what does that really mean? Unit 1, Mode 2?

2. TB4L, this didn't appear in the manual, but talked a lot by people, what is that?

3. When I practice the 3 basic models with real game, I always found the system needs to be changed. Even at beginning with a high O/R count of 9+ and I jumped in, it drops to 6 or something and stay there with the ZZ mode appears or 3 banker 4 players, and then drop again stay again. sometimes, just when i realise and switch system, it changes again, of course made me lose.

4. Lots of time, I jump into a shoe at the beginning after 4 or 5 hands with S40, ones i jumped in, it changes, happened during the middle of the shoe as well.

I am in Sydney, Australia, the casino is using pre shuffled cards, is there something you can recommend for me to concentrate in and practice more? I am sick of losing to this dame place. Everytime come with fully confident and leave with sad ending.

Thanks all

Simon

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Hello Simontsui8, welcome to NOR forum. I have been a full member (MDB also) for about 2 months and still I'm not playing for real money yet.

There is much information to learn and everything is on here somewhere - you just need to read thru everything again and again.

To answer your questions as best I can:

1. U1D1 and U1D2 are betting progressions - negative progressions meaning you increase your bets as you lose

U1D1 - you go up 1 unit as you lose and down 1 unit as you win - most agressive

U1D2 - you go up 1 unit as you lose and down 2 units as you win - less aggressive

NOTHING TO DO WITH MODES

The key is right table and system selection so that your hit rate is high - no progression will work unless you have a high hit rate.

2. TB4L - Time Before Last - you bet the same as the result before the last event - also called S40M1 - you go on the run after 1 loss. Used for shoes low in 2's.

3. Post some shoes you played so we can see how you bet and how you lost. Not all shoes are great for NOR anymore - MDB works really good for a lot that NOR doesn't work well for. Also Netbetting.

Also join the NOR bootcamp - Steve has practise methods and techniques to deal with those shoes that change. I did it and it covers TB4L and other tips.

One of the posts I read recently Ellis said unless you can play all NOR systems, and modes fluently, understand netbetting, SAP, and maybe MDB+, and when to use all of the previous mentioned you don't have the full range of techniques to win at every shoe.

4. In the NOR manual Ellis says he would never lose a bet a 1,2,3 progression unless he had won a 2nd bet first and he knew which mode to be in. Otherwise flat bet or play imaginary - don't play your money when you don't know.

I am from Perth, Australia and it is also tough to beat this casino - Australia has tough conditions and their casinos make big profits - I am researching the shoes and the shuffle techniques and recording them to see what they are doing - you must know what they are doing and what they produce to give you an advantage before you play. Post some of the shoes you record and we can look at them. Stop playing for real money until you are confident with everything on here and you can win all the time for practise.

Sorry but there are no shortcuts.

If it was that easy the casinos would be broke already - you have to put in the time.

Edited by Ellis
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Good reply Brad - I corrected your typo on U1D2.

Simon, better to stop playing for a while until you know what you are doing.

Trying to learn Bac in a week is about like trying to learn golf in a week.

Australia is a big Country and I'm not sure where you are relative to Oz.

But Oz is a very successful Australian player and you might want to contact him and maybe get together if possible.

Correct, we added TB4L to NOR for streaky shoes.

Now we only play F for Strong Sided shoes.

The biggest mistake beginners make is changing systems far too often. You are going to lose some bets no matter what system you play.

Your goal isn't to win every bet. Your goal is to win more than half - more than the game odds of 50/50.

If you stick with the system selection rules you can win more than half your bets.

S40 is for high 1's and for high 1's and 2s

OTB4L is for high 2s and for high 2s and 3s

TB4L is for high 3+s and for high 1s and 3+s

F is for a 2 to 1 or better Strong Side

A + OR count is Mode 3

A 0 or - OR count is Mode 2 (so that you get on runs sooner)

Learn to do an SAP count so you know for sure what a shoe is high in and low in.

Are you sure that the cards at your casino are "factory" preshuffled?

Do they come to the table in a sealed and numbered 8 deck bundle already shuffled?

Or do they come in 8 decks unsealed.

The fact that your OR count got so high so quickly makes me wonder.

BTW waiting for the OR count to get to +9 is waiting far too long.

Simon, you can record shoes W/O playing.

If you could post a few of your shoes using our short cut method I could tell you what you should be studying.

Our short cut method works like this:

We always work in cols of 20 plays;

So lets say a shoe starts PPP B PP BBB P BB PPPP BBBB

We would transform that to simply P31231244

Get it? Just be sure all your cols except the last add up to 20.

Post some shoes so we can see what you are up against. All casinos are different.

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Thank you so much for your reply sir, that was very helpful.

I stay in Sydney

The cards are pre shuffled in Japan, I heard that from one of the casino's gaming manager, they come in sealed pack with 8 deck, two different colors, blue and red! All cards used have to be back to somewhere! Also about 6 packs are brought ones to the table and stay there to be used one colour after the other.

But you can ask them to open and hand shuffle again in front of you on the private table with limit starts from $1000.

Does these information help with anything? Let me know if you want to find out anymore.

Thank you

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  • 2 months later...

Hi there,

I am a NOR player, just joined last week and practised playing it for about a week or so in my local casino.

Before my purchase, I am playing my version of tbl, and otb4l.. Not really performing, I would say plus minus didn't win or lose much, over a few months .

Sometime back I was playing my version of modified martingle, and it was quite well for a good few months before a big losing streak.

for NOR

It have been quite a good week, first day+ 20 units, 2nd day+ 22 units, 3rd day +6 units, 4th day -6

My 3rd and 4th day, I wasnt in a good shape, as it is quite stressful especially a good few hours in the casino..

Basically , in my opinion, it

NOR is a very good system, previously I got 2 other systems, but it's not my style.

As what Ellis said, serious bac players will eventually end up in BTC anyway.

currently I have some problems and might need some of your expertise help,

While searching for table, I usually try to begin on maybe around 12- 20 games.

I will do 1 imaginative bet, then follow by flat bet 1 unit to test it out first. However I end up losing 2 units or 3 units after 3 games or so,

Thereafter I walked away. Now I am down by 3 units and will go and search for another table again..

Sometimes after a few games in the shoe, I feel that the system is changing, and I am losing slowly, I will walk away maybe -2/-3 units and start table searching again

So all in all, I am already down by -5/-6 units.

Any advise for this? Am I doing it right? Is there a better way to do the above?

Thanks for the help

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Drumman

Yeah that happens a lot. You wait to see a good table and then pick a good NOR system and when you start to bet it changes, then you change and it changes again. Be thankful you weren't playing a 345. i would continue to bet conservatively until you get into positive units. Do you really want to risk 12 units when the shoe is changing on you.

Shoes change very frequently so you need to have a game plan for when it starts changing on you.

I yell "winner winner chicken dinner on all naturals"

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I would say you are doing pretty well from your results you posted but is it good luck or are you a fast learner?

I think its too early to tell

I agree with everything trbfla says.

I'm always anticipating a change and then if it doesn't happen its a bonus.

When you think you see a bias I'm always thinking now what hasn't happened that may happen but also don't miss the obvious - murphy's law when you anticipate the change it wont happen and when you anticipate the bias it will change - that's gambling but a good gameplan will get you thru

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Im not pro first of all and not what I consider an experienced player compared to many here but I would say if its not your day its not your day

Ellis says try real hard to win the first shoe of the day as it sets the tone for the day

I wouldn't lose more than 3 without calling it quits

1 to hopefully win

2nd if lost to try and turn it around

3rd as a last chance to turn things around

If lost then go

I think you need a complete plan

Total win goal

shoe win goals

Shoe stop loss

Total stop loss for session

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Hi There,

May i ask you pros, how many losing shoes before you call it a day?

Say following the strict stop loss at -8units.

I just lost 50 units yesterday lost 5 shoes at -8

And 10 units was lost when doing a table search.

Thanks for the advise

NO!...NO...NO

Don't you ever do that again.

If you lose 2 shoes first up...get the hell out of there.

Something went seriously wrong for you to lose 50 units...I see that you only joined up this month...Seriously...there is not a snowballs chance in hell of you understanding the vagaries of NOR in that short a time frame.

As well...When we talk about a strict SL...we don't mean that you have to take it to the limit every time. If the shoe isn't working for you...Cut your losses and get the hell out of there ASAP.

I don't know how many shoes you played before hitting the Casino...but I wouldn't recommend anyone using real money until they had played a minimum of 200 shoes and then posted some of the difficult ones and get some G/damn advice.

LOOK...You can recover from this...but recognise that Rome wasn't built in a day... it will take some time before you are ready...and most likely a while longer for you to regain your confidence.

Ellis is the man here, but others will chip in and assist.

The first thing you should do is post the 5 losing shoes and be a little patient...You will get your answers.

OK...You F####ed up (we all do)...but treat it as a learning experience and you will get there in the end.

BTW: I took so long to absorb NOR that Ellis was thinking of relegating me to the slow learner's class...LOL

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Thanks for the reply,

After some soul searching and looking up the manual and forum ,I knew that I wasn't doing a table search patiently n correctly, I tried to rush things through...

I know that it will take some time for me to regain confidence and bankroll again.

Hope to post some great updates on my progress again.

Nor is a great approach, and discipline should be my biggest hurdle..

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200 shoes minimum = 2 per day x 100 days = 3 and a half months.

Starting out as a part timer it may be difficult to play more than 2 per day I feel if you work fulltime or similar.

I try to play 2 per day at least and I been a member for a few months so I probably played close to 200 shoes but I still don't feel I'm ready.

I'm playing low stakes online but my casino has a $15 min so not ready for that yet.

Its $$ I cant afford to lose

I do try and go there just to observe and record shoes to try and work out their trends and weaknesses when I eventually do go there to play.

Yeah Drumman full points for being keen but unfortunately that's not the name of the game here - 3 months of hard practise at least

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200 shoes minimum = 2 per day x 100 days = 3 and a half months.

Starting out as a part timer it may be difficult to play more than 2 per day I feel if you work fulltime or similar.

I try to play 2 per day at least and I been a member for a few months so I probably played close to 200 shoes but I still don't feel I'm ready.

I'm playing low stakes online but my casino has a $15 min so not ready for that yet.

Its $$ I cant afford to lose

I do try and go there just to observe and record shoes to try and work out their trends and weaknesses when I eventually do go there to play.

Yeah Drumman full points for being keen but unfortunately that's not the name of the game here - 3 months of hard practise at least

First rule of gambling, You do not gamble any kind of money you can't afford to lose. Why? Because no matter how good is the system you are playing, you can always get a shoe from hell.

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  • 2 months later...

Hello im new to this forum. I have read the NOR pdf. I think i got most of it but i still have some remaining questions :-)

1.When should we start betting in a shoe. I know OR count and SAP count help us make the decision, but what indicators give us the green light ?

2.On a streaky shoe, at what OR count should we get in ? -3 ? -5 ? more ? and why ? Or maybe the SAP count is more important ?

3.Concerning the OTB4L system I have a question concerning the progression. I know that we have to face ZZ and straight runs. But lets say for instance that we begin betting, we face a ZZ run and it tells us that we are in mode 2 for ZZ runs. Should we upgrade to prog 234 ? But what if we use that progression and we are now facing a straight run telling us to go mode 3 ? Should we bet 234 5 when we go on the run ?

4.I had a big question concerning TB4L system. It’s winning agains a lot of different sequences except 2’s. But 2’s averagely happen once every 8 plays. Let’s say our shoe is low in 2’s, and we start winning a few plays to go up to +2 for example. And we face a 2’s we may lose up to 2+3+4 units=9 units !!! That means that if we lose the next play we got outplayed so quickly even though the shoe may still be low on 2’s. Is that normal ? Am I playing that shoe correctly ?

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1.When should we start betting in a shoe. I know OR count and SAP count help us make the decision, but what indicators give us the green light ?

When you feel comfortable that you have correctly determined the bias and which NOR system to play and which mode to play and win 1 imaginary bet if you want - there's is no set rules on this and it changes shoe by shoe, person by person. Experience and lots of practice helps.

2.On a streaky shoe, at what OR count should we get in ? -3 ? -5 ? more ? and why ? Or maybe the SAP count is more important ?

-3 or higher is good. Get in with what? Are you referring to F system or TB4L? or drop everything and play repeats only those are the common NOR systems to deal with streaks. SAP count can help as a tool to determine which system and also to determine which mode to be in

3.Concerning the OTB4L system I have a question concerning the progression. I know that we have to face ZZ and straight runs. But lets say for instance that we begin betting, we face a ZZ run and it tells us that we are in mode 2 for ZZ runs. Should we upgrade to prog 234 ? But what if we use that progression and we are now facing a straight run telling us to go mode 3 ? Should we bet 234 5 when we go on the run ?

Progressions have nothing to do with modes. Modes are to tell us when to go OTR - after 1 losing bet (M1), 2 losing bets (M2) or 3 losing bets (M3)

OTBL you have to determine which mode for ZZ runs and which mode for straights because it must deal with both unlike the other systems.

Progressions like 234 and 345 are based on hit % and first bet hit rate - if your hit rate and first bet hot rate are high then you could upgrade to those 2 progressions to take advantage of a high hit rate

4.I had a big question concerning TB4L system. It’s winning agains a lot of different sequences except 2’s. But 2’s averagely happen once every 8 plays. Let’s say our shoe is low in 2’s, and we start winning a few plays to go up to +2 for example. And we face a 2’s we may lose up to 2+3+4 units=9 units !!! That means that if we lose the next play we got outplayed so quickly even though the shoe may still be low on 2’s. Is that normal ? Am I playing that shoe correctly ?

TB4L is like that - it does so well against everything but it loses so bad against 2's. That's the same with all baccarat systems - they all win to something and they all lose to something and you should know what both of those are.

I never use TB4L for long and if I get in with it I only aim for a small win and get out with it - as you say 2's are mathematically the second most common event.

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thank you Brad for your detailed answers. they really help me. Concerning the boot camp, it's going to be complicated (for now) bc I live in France.

I still have some unanswered questions. Maybe you or sb else could answer them ?

1. I also read that we base our modes on the OR count. If the OR count is negative we are mode 2 and when the OR count is positive we are mode 3. Why is that ? Does that strategy completely deletes the one saying : on your 1st bet OTR, only bet 1 (or 0) unit to see which mode you are in?

2. I also read that in the 4th column we start securing our winnings. But we almost never go up to 65 (because of the ties). So from what play should we consider to stop to play if we go under 5, 15 or 25 ?

3. I was wondering what winrate we could expect. If you can give me a range. And also how many percent of the shoes are we supposed to lose. Only to have an indicator if I’m selecting the tables the right way.

4. I have a question regarding the live dealers on the Internet. Are they reliable ? Do they have characteristics ? Are they usually more neutral ? streaky ? choppy ?

5. I was wondering what amount we have to bet on the FIRST 4bet of the shoe. Do we always have to bet 1 unit ?

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Hi Veko1 ,and welcome .

First off I would read and re-read and re-read the Manila for NOR. I must have read the manual a dozen times or so before the information was understandable . Then looked at some of the other threads and examples and put that information to use.

As for casino play . I went to a B/M ,brick and motor, casino . And stood off to the side with paper and pen and acted as if I was playing for real . Got a good feeling for the casino and what modes to use at that casino . Must be flexible , nothing is written in stone . It's just a reference to use .

After practicing like that for a while . I purchased some chips to get use to betting with them . But I would have just the results of the game , banker or Player circled on my paper . 20 to 30 shoes that way . I would cover the results and bet accordingly the uncover that one result to see how I was doing . As time went on . I Increased my player speed and made less errors while playing a Live game . Then I sat down at the table and played for real .

I learned my casino weakness for modes and what system to start using for new cards that were hand shuffled.

The time put in was well worth it . I look for 30 points a day profit . Which I have been achieving .

I have to be careful that I don't get banned . They are a lower limit casino for betting and the only one close to me .

You can do this . Just put in the time to do more reading and things start to fall into place .

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thank you Brad for your detailed answers. they really help me. Concerning the boot camp, it's going to be complicated (for now) bc I live in France.

I still have some unanswered questions. Maybe you or sb else could answer them ?

1. I also read that we base our modes on the OR count. If the OR count is negative we are mode 2 (vérifie l’info) and when the OR count is positive we are mode 3. Why is that ? Does that strategy completely deletes the one saying : on your 1st bet OTR, only bet 1 (or 0) unit to see which mode you are in?

There are a few ways to determine the correct or best mode to be in.

The OR count can be used to determine it - the reason M2 is selected for a - OR count is because a - OR means the shoe is more choppy than streaky and therefore more likely to produce a 3 than a 4 and vice versa a + OR count means the reverse and the shoe is more likely to produce a 4 than a 3iar.

Also the 3rd bet rule - place an imaginary bet or a real one on the 3rd losing bet and if you win then select whichever mode that would put you in - if you lose then select the other mode.

Also SAP count can tell you which events are most common or least common or more common than the other event. A common thought is to change modes when you lose - not a good idea IMO - you will change back and forth and not know where you are. Select a mode from the start and go with it in most cases - you cant be right all the time but you only need to be right half or more then time

Table selection and correct system and mode is critical with NOR in order to play it as it was designed for.

2. I also read that in the 4th column we start securing our winnings. But we almost never go up to 65 (because of the ties). So from what play should we consider to stop to play if we go under 5, 15 or 25 ?

You are always securing your winnings. Every unit you win you have the option to quit right then and there and walk away. Its your choice based on experience and win target / stop loss. That's the greatest advantage we have over the casinos - we choose when to bet or not to bet, we choose when to walk or keep playing - use it.

NOR in its purest form is designed to win +10 to +40 or so in the right shoe. Stop loss is -8 This can happen with right table selection, system selection, mode selection. Without the above your win goals will probably need to be lowered. NOR manual says when you get past +6 don't walk away with less than +1

Half decade rule applies if you get to +23 consider quitting before a bet takes you under +20.

By the time you are in last column - 60 plays for 6 deck (online usually) or 72 plays (8 deck) you really need to be careful with your bets as time is running out and if you lose a progression then you wont be able to recover it. The last column can turn a good win into and average win or a loss if you are reckless. I'm always looking at how much I'm ahead in the last column and telling myself I will ride out this winning streak but after a loss I will seriously consider walking with whatever win I've got. Im saying to myself walk away with a win and be happy. Don't be greedy and turn a win into a loss. I know that feeling and its not good or smart.

Read Oz's posts - his average win per shoe is +2 or +3 but guess what - they are 5k units and he got there by playing the same way from $2 units

3. I was wondering what winrate we could expect. If you can give me a range. And also how many percent of the shoes are we supposed to lose. Only to have an indicator if I’m selecting the tables the right way.

Well NOR in its purest form is designed to bet every hand and use a 123, or U1D2M2 progression. With a 345 exploit you can hit +40, +50

From my experience this can happen ONLY if table selection, system, and mode selection is correct. And only for biased cards.

Table selection takes skill and time. If you are going to play a shoe with limited knowledge on the card prep, type of cards, and last few shoes, then you have to lower your win goals, and not bet every hand.

+5 to +10 is a good win rate in this situation I believe. +2 or +3 is still more than fine to walk with. -4 or -5 as stop loss.

A loss in 1 in 5 shoes is good. Obviously 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 still puts you ahead.

4. I have a question regarding the live dealers on the Internet. Are they reliable ? Do they have characteristics ? Are they usually more neutral ? streaky ? choppy ?

I believe so but get opinions and read reviews. I play online live dealer and have found them to be legit. They don't want a bad rep. Online casinos can operate at less profit than B&M. Far less. They can offer fairer games and still make a profit. Most online are hand shuffle to show you fairness. they are good for NOR. they vary in characteristic but I have found them more more choppy, and neutral than streaky

5. I was wondering what amount we have to bet on the FIRST 4bet of the shoe. Do we always have to bet 1 unit ?

If you are going to raise your bets to 4 units you better be confident in correct system and mode and know you have a better than 50/50 chance of winning. Don't bet 2 units until you have won 1, don't bet 3 until you have won 2 etc

If you don't know nothing about the shoe tread carefully. If you feel confident then follow the progression.

Re read the NOR manual. Every time I read it I learn something new. Most of the questions you have are already in it.

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