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Some questions on SAP plays


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Hi everyone,

Some questions,

Eg: B4432141

For my next bet, 1s is the least common, I would bet that it will go up to 2s,

Do I place my bets all the way up till it turn to a 4s, o r do I skip a bet and wait for 2s to become 3s then I start to bet for it to become MC?

Assuming it turns to 4s which is the most common, do I bet otr as it is already the most common?

b113211211221

I find that this shoe is a S40 biased Shoe, but I chose to play SAP on this

I bet that 1s will go up to 2s, however in S40 we always bet on opposites, which should I follow.

Ok I chose SAP, my bet lost as it turn to opposites, and i lost 2 bets in a row as 2 opposites .

Now 1s and 2s are almost equal, I became confused. Should I used RSAP to bet ?

If it is a Nor biased Shoe, and SAP counts near equal, what should my I do?

I am from Singapore, and I play in RWS. They are using pre shuffled cards, but not factory presuffled, they do have a card prep room,

I find that finding a biase shoe, using NOR, or SAP is good enough for me.

I did saw a few ladies recording SAP in the score card, and I think that are MDB players there. Saw the progressions they used. And sipping tea, most of the time they don't bet ...

I think there is a mixture of the NOR and MDB shoes in Singapore RWS...

Got a hint from a two dealers which are quite chatty, they told me best is to leave the shoe before 50 plays, and enter the shoe around play 10,

She says most of the time, the shoes will change patterns after play 50.....

Still building my Bankroll slowly, but thank God I am still in the positive region,

thank you guys in advance for your valuable advise..

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Hi everyone,

Some questions,

Eg: B4432141

For my next bet, 1s is the least common, I would bet that it will go up to 2s,

Do I place my bets all the way up till it turn to a 4s, o r do I skip a bet and wait for 2s to become 3s then I start to bet for it to become MC?

Assuming it turns to 4s which is the most common, do I bet otr as it is already the most common?

b113211211221

I find that this shoe is a S40 biased Shoe, but I chose to play SAP on this

I bet that 1s will go up to 2s, however in S40 we always bet on opposites, which should I follow.

Ok I chose SAP, my bet lost as it turn to opposites, and i lost 2 bets in a row as 2 opposites .

Now 1s and 2s are almost equal, I became confused. Should I used RSAP to bet ?

If it is a Nor biased Shoe, and SAP counts near equal, what should my I do?

I am from Singapore, and I play in RWS. They are using pre shuffled cards, but not factory presuffled, they do have a card prep room,

I find that finding a biase shoe, using NOR, or SAP is good enough for me.

I did saw a few ladies recording SAP in the score card, and I think that are MDB players there. Saw the progressions they used. And sipping tea, most of the time they don't bet ...

I think there is a mixture of the NOR and MDB shoes in Singapore RWS...

Got a hint from a two dealers which are quite chatty, they told me best is to leave the shoe before 50 plays, and enter the shoe around play 10,

She says most of the time, the shoes will change patterns after play 50.....

Still building my Bankroll slowly, but thank God I am still in the positive region,

thank you guys in advance for your valuable advise..

Well good Drummand and first welcome to the forum. Thanks, you've already told me more about Singapore than anyone else has told me - That Singapore is using Regular cards that they prep in secret away from the table out of view of the players.

This, of course, SHOULD be illegal (fixing the cards) but unfortunately we have no control over that.

First, where a shoe might change is purely a function of the cut (somebody cut the cards right?) so pay no attention to what dealers are telling you.

They may mean well but....

Now, since the casino is using Regular cards it is likely to favor SAP far more often than RSAP -

meaning that you will most often be betting that your low count stays your low count while your high count goes even higher.

In other words you will see wide Sap dispersement (SAP) more often than close SAP counts (RSAP)

So OK, now lets fill in your counts including your O/R count;

In your first example B4432141 your O/R count at play 19 is -6 meaning that so far the shoe is favoring Repeats 3 to 1.

Your SAP counts at play 18 are 1 2 4 12 (extremely wide dispersement). So far your Sap counts were never equal at any play.

So Ok, what information are we trying to glean from our 5 counts?

What play method will give us the highest hit rate in the shoe at hand thus far?

OK, in this shoe thus far, your most significant count is your O/R count.

It is telling you that betting straight Repeats will have won 2/3rd of the bets.

Your SAP counts are telling you the same thing. They strongly favor 3s and 4+s - the two counts that favor Repeats the most.

So all of your counts are telling you the same thing: BET REPEATS!

Well, had you started at play 2 betting Repeats with a 123 progression, you would already be at +10.

Well what do we know about a 123 progression - It's only safely good for about +10 so +10 is a good stop win for a 123 or even a 1234 progression.

Now, you might have started at play 2 IF the prior shoes at that same table also strongly favord Repeats.

But more likely you started at play 3 or 4. Fine! Quit as soon as you get to +10.

But Ellis, this is the best shoe I've seen all day. I don't want to quit so soon.

Fine, capture +8 and shoot for +15 and if you get there in the 2nd col, fine - capture +13 and shoot for +20.

But NEVER try to beat +20 with a 1234 progression. There's no future in that.

However if the shoe remains that good upgrade your prog to U1D2 or to a 345. THEN shoot for +30.

OK, lets look at your 2nd example: B113211211221 = 18 plays

OK your O/R count at play 18 is +5 and your counts are 6 8 4 0.

So OK you have a very high plus O/R count going.

What does that already tell you? S40 !

But what have I also said a zillion times?

High 1's and 2s are ALWAYS S40!

OK S40 is aleady at +10 with only a 123 prog if you started at play 2.

But you only would have done that if the prior shoes at that same table were also S40.

Chances are you would have started about play 5. Fine, you are at +9 with a 1 bet due on B at play 19.

Your highest bet was 2.

But Ellis, what if I wanted to play 2Hi?

Well personally I don't like to hanicap myself that way but fine simply change your prog from 123 to 122.

Your score is still going to already be at +8 or 9 depending on where you started.

What about going to a 345 since we are doing so well?

Well no, not in this case. Look at your hit rate on your 1st bets - your 1 bets. It is only about 50%.

So in this case you do not want to put the emphasis on your first bets.

BUT now look at your 2nd bet hit rate. Very good!

So we might consider a 134 or even a 146. A 146 would already be at +19.

So Drummand, are you starting to catch on? I hope this helped.

Sure, you could simply bet the highest count goes higher and the lowest count stays lowest.

That would have done OK. But what you really want is the strongest way to play the shoe.

And that is exactly what O/R and SAP are trying to tell you.

What you need to learn is how to listen.

It is a thinking man's game.

Edited by Ellis
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Ellis and brad, that comment is not neccessary. You are adding oil to the fire. What are you trying to prove?

We have said before how the cards are prepared.

RWS low minimum tables - continously shuffle machine(how would one know if the have a room for card prep?)

MBS - Preshuffled cards (no idea whether it is factory or casino shuffled)

I'm not trying to start a fight. But until you stop all these comments, there will be no peace. What we need now is how to play sap/rsap.

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MBS have factory prepared Angel cards from Japan

Ellis and brad, that comment is not neccessary. You are adding oil to the fire. What are you trying to prove?

We have said before how the cards are prepared.

RWS low minimum tables - continously shuffle machine(how would one know if the have a room for card prep?)

MBS - Preshuffled cards (no idea whether it is factory or casino shuffled)

I'm not trying to start a fight. But until you stop all these comments, there will be no peace. What we need now is how to play sap/rsap.

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Ellis and brad, that comment is not neccessary. You are adding oil to the fire. What are you trying to prove?

We have said before how the cards are prepared.

RWS low minimum tables - continously shuffle machine(how would one know if the have a room for card prep?)

MBS - Preshuffled cards (no idea whether it is factory or casino shuffled)

I'm not trying to start a fight. But until you stop all these comments, there will be no peace. What we need now is how to play sap/rsap.

Big horn, if you are not trying to start a fight, why are you starting a fight?

You could have politely asked "How do you know the cards are casino preshuffled?

Factory comes to the table in a sealed and numbered bundle.

Casino preshuffled comes to the table unsealed.

Everybody here knows that.

Also, you can simply ask.

We have always been told that Singapore was factory

Yet while MDB+ beats factory in both Vegas and Macau

It has yet to do well in Singapore.

That made us wonder about Singapore cards. We were suspicious of them.

Now we know why. THAT is big news.

Singapore members have been asking and asking: What system should we play?

And we've been at a loss to tell them - until now.

My strong advice to Singapore Players is play SAP/RSAP

Because SAP tells you precisely the best system to play in the shoe at hand AND what mode to play it in AND

When to switch systems when necessary - and that comes up a lot in Singpore.

When you play SAP you bet on wider dispersion -

that the highest counts will continue upwards and the lowest counts will stay lowest.

You can do that if you want and I hope you don't need a map. It's a very good 6 unit system.

The point I'm trying to make is the best use of SAP against Regular cards

is to play the systrem SAP tells you to play in the mode SAP tells you to play it in.

Now and then you might get a Neutral shoe and SAP tells you that

All your SAP counts run close together.

Fine! That is when you play RSAP:

That the highest counts will go down and the lowest counts well go up

That all counts will go toward the mean. Again, I hope you don't need a map.

That is why I explained what the mean count is.

Every now and then in neutral shoes all 4 counts will arrive at the same number

maybe even several times.

When all counts are equal - you have no bet.

But that means you have bet the shoe perfectly thus far -

You've won every progression.

In fact, it's a good quitting point!

But the very next event will make the counts uneven again - giving you a bet. So....

Some of the guys are already playing SAP/RSAP

From the instructions posted on two different forums.

It would be nice if they posted a shoe we could discuss - Just like drumman did.

But your post did do a positive thing:

It reminded me that in the Drumman comments:

I failed to explain how SAP told me to play Mode 3 in the S40 shoe.

You know - the +10 shoe at play 18.

So I'll go back and do that - hopefully W/O further harrassment

BTW, I've never seen a continuous shuffle machine CSM used in Baccarat.

And BTW, I've always said that the first trait of a successful gambler is a POSITIVE attitude.

Edited by Ellis
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OK, if I may: Back to the Drumman S40 shoe for a minute.

b113211211221

So I started at play 2 S40 but I don't yet know for sure which mode to play.

But I would only start at play 2 if the prior shoes at that table were also very choppy.

CHOP is mode 3. Streak is Mode 2. so +O/R is Mode 3. - O/R is Mode 2 (to get on the runs quicker)

But I had to decide at a ZERO O/R.

So how did I chose mode 3 so early?

Because so far there are more +signs in the O/R count than minus signs.

In fact, there are no MINUS signs at all when the decision came up.

So the shoe, so far, is favoring + which is Mode 3.

Then SAP confirms Mode 3. From play 5 on 3's are at 4 and 4+s are at 0.

That is Mode 3.

Why? Because S40 Mode 3 LIKES 3s and HATES 4s.

S40 M2 HATES 3s

BTW OTB4L M2 loves 5+ and hates 4s while M3 loves 4s

SAP puts all that information at your disposal.

Is SAP always right?

NOTHING in Baccarat is always right.

We beat shoes by being USUALLY right.

SAP is real world. No matter what shoe type.

SAP tells you exactly what the shoe has done thus far AND

if the shoe changes SAP tells you exactly when it changed and what it changed to.

Back to basics:

SAP tells you what is Hi and what is Lo:

Hi 1's with Hi 2s is ALWAYS S40

Hi 2s esp. with Hi 3s is always OTB4L

Hi 1's with Hi 3s is TB4L

Hi 1's with Hi 4+ is always TB4L

Lo 1's is Repeats

Lo 2s is TB4L

Hi 4+s is TB4L

When nothing stands out as Hi or Lo - that's RSAP

And, of course, we get Strong Side by 2 to 1 or more. F kills.

SAP with O/R gives you ALL that information.

Look, to play Baccarat, you MUST know that table.

It is only 9 short lines plus it is plain common sense.

It covers the whole waterfront.

THAT is how you beat Baccarat.

Edited by Ellis
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Big horn, if you are not trying to start a fight, why are you starting a fight?

You could have politely asked "How do you know the cards are casino preshuffled?

Factory comes to the table in a sealed and numbered bundle.

Casino preshuffled comes to the table unsealed.

Everybody here knows that. Well, except you.

Also, you can simply ask.

We have always been told that Singapore was factory

Yet while MDB+ beats factory in both Vegas and Macau

It has yet to do well in Singapore.

That made us wonder about Singapore cards. We were suspicious of them.

Now we know why. THAT is big news.

Singapore members have been asking and asking: What system should we play?

And we've been at a loss to tell them - until now.

My strong advice to Singapore Players is play SAP/RSAP

Because SAP tells you precisely the best system to play in the shoe at hand AND what mode to play it in AND

When to switch systems when necessary - and that comes up a lot in Singpore.

When you play SAP you bet on wider dispersion -

that the highest counts will continue upwards and the lowest counts will stay lowest.

You can do that if you want and I hope you don't need a map. It's a very good 6 unit system.

The point I'm trying to make is the best use of SAP against Regular cards

is to play the systrem SAP tells you to play in the mode SAP tells you to play it in.

Now and then you might get a Neutral shoe and SAP tells you that

All your SAP counts run close together.

Fine! That is when you play RSAP:

That the highest counts will go down and the lowest counts well go up

That all counts will go toward the mean. Again, I hope you don't need a map.

That is why I explained what the mean count is.

Every now and then in neutral shoes all 4 counts will arrive at the same number

maybe even several times.

When all counts are equal - you have no bet.

But that means you have bet the shoe perfectly thus far -

You've won every progression.

In fact, it's a good quitting point!

But the very next event will make the counts uneven again - giving you a bet. So....

Some of the guys are already playing SAP/RSAP

From the instructions posted on two different forums.

It would be nice if they posted a shoe we could discuss.

But your post did do a positive thing:

It reminded me that in the Drumman comments:

I failed to explain how SAP told me to play Mode 3 in the S40 shoe.

You know - the +10 shoe at play 18.

So I'll go back and do that - hopefully W/O further harrassment

BTW, I've never seen a continuous shuffle machine CSM used in Baccarat.

And BTW, I've always said that the first trait of a successful gambler is a POSITIVE attitude.

My mistake, i was supposed to write automatic shuffle machines. Well, everyone makes mistakes, including you. You said U2HI can beat any shoe from anywhere, didn't you? I believe in you that's why I am still here.

Why do you like to assume that people don't know things??? I was confused by you because RWS cards come in the boxes similar to MBS. If MBS is using factory shuffled cards, then RWS should be using factory shuffled cards right? BUt you said RWS is using regular cards?

For RWS, the cards will be shuffled by the machine before use.

I am not harassing you, you were harassing me with your comment. I've already stopped after that thread.

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Bighorn have you played many shoes at home after recording them at casino?

How many shoes?

Did you find a way to beat them at home or did you find similar patterns?

As Singapore only has 2 casinos then you should research the characteristics of the shoes.

After a while you will see patterns.

I know my casino always shuffles out OTBL type shoes but they sometimes throw in long chops and streaks to try and confuse people.

If you can pick when the long streak may happen you can go OTR and stay OTR till it ends.

If you study enough shoes you will pick the patterns ands take advantage of them.

Oz posted results for 500 + shoes in Australian casinos.

He had every statistic you could imagine

That's why he is where he is.

He doesn't say NOR doesn't work he knows the NOR bias changes several times per shoe so he waits for the change and starts again.

He's my motivation that it can be done and every time I think its too hard I think of the work he put in to get where he is.

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My mistake, i was supposed to write automatic shuffle machines. Well, everyone makes mistakes, including you. You said U2HI can beat any shoe from anywhere, didn't you? I believe in you that's why I am still here.

Why do you like to assume that people don't know things??? I was confused by you because RWS cards come in the boxes similar to MBS. If MBS is using factory shuffled cards, then RWS should be using factory shuffled cards right? BUt you said RWS is using regular cards?

For RWS, the cards will be shuffled by the machine before use.

I am not harassing you, you were harassing me with your comment. I've already stopped after that thread.

Right, I put too much confidence in one tester - always a mistake.

I don't "like" to assume people don't know things but I DO assume people don't know things because that is why they are here. Remember, I'm not just talking to experienced players, I'm talking to the whole group including brand new members. When I assume they don't know something, I'm usually right.

If you say you've stopped - then stop. We don't do that here. What are new guys like Drumman going to think.

He askes a simple question and.....

He's going to think: Hell, this is just like the forum I just left.

Edited by Ellis
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Bighorn have you played many shoes at home after recording them at casino?

How many shoes?

Did you find a way to beat them at home or did you find similar patterns?

As Singapore only has 2 casinos then you should research the characteristics of the shoes.

After a while you will see patterns.

I know my casino always shuffles out OTBL type shoes but they sometimes throw in long chops and streaks to try and confuse people.

If you can pick when the long streak may happen you can go OTR and stay OTR till it ends.

If you study enough shoes you will pick the patterns ands take advantage of them.

Oz posted results for 500 + shoes in Australian casinos.

He had every statistic you could imagine

That's why he is where he is.

He doesn't say NOR doesn't work he knows the NOR bias changes several times per shoe so he waits for the change and starts again.

He's my motivation that it can be done and every time I think its too hard I think of the work he put in to get where he is.

Yep, I remember when Oz couldn't spell Baccarat. Having a target casino and studying that casino thoroughly WORKS!

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[quote=E. Clifton Davis;484g horn, if you are not trying to start a fight, why are you starting a fight?

You could have politely asked "How do you know the cards are casino preshuffled?

Factory comes to the table in a sealed and numbered bundle.

Casino preshuffled comes to the table unsealed.

Everybody here knows that.

Also, you can simply ask.

We have always been told that Singapore was factory

Yet while MDB+ beats factory in both Vegas and Macau

It has yet to do well in Singapore.

That made us wonder about Singapore cards. We were suspicious of them.

Now we know why. THAT is big news.

Singapore members have been asking and asking: What system should we play?

And we've been at a loss to tell them - until now.

My strong advice to Singapore Players is play SAP/RSAP

Because SAP tells you precisely the best system to play in the shoe at hand AND what mode to play it in AND

When to switch systems when necessary - and that comes up a lot in Singpore.

When you play SAP you bet on wider dispersion -

that the highest counts will continue upwards and the lowest counts will stay lowest.

You can do that if you want and I hope you don't need a map. It's a very good 6 unit system.

The point I'm trying to make is the best use of SAP against Regular cards

is to play the systrem SAP tells you to play in the mode SAP tells you to play it in.

Now and then you might get a Neutral shoe and SAP tells you that

All your SAP counts run close together.

Fine! That is when you play RSAP:

Some of the guys are already playing SAP/RSAP

From the instructions posted on two different forums

How to play SAP/RSAP in which forums, Where are there?

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OK, if I may: Back to the Drumman S40 shoe for a minute.

b113211211221

So I started at play 2 S40 but I don't yet know for sure which mode to play.

But I would only start at play 2 if the prior shoes at that table were also very choppy.

CHOP is mode 3. Streak is Mode 2. so +O/R is Mode 3. - O/R is Mode 2 (to get on the runs quicker)

But I had to decide at a ZERO O/R.

So how did I chose mode 3 so early?

Because so far there are more +signs in the O/R count than minus signs.

In fact, there are no MINUS signs at all when the decision came up.

So the shoe, so far, is favoring + which is Mode 3.

Then SAP confirms Mode 3. From play 5 on 3's are at 4 and 4+s are at 0.

That is Mode 3.

Why? Because S40 Mode 3 LIKES 3s and HATES 4s.

S40 M2 HATES 3s

BTW OTB4L M2 loves 5+ and hates 4s while M3 loves 4s

SAP puts all that information at your disposal.

Is SAP always right?

NOTHING in Baccarat is always right.

We beat shoes by being USUALLY right.

SAP is real world. No matter what shoe type.

SAP tells you exactly what the shoe has done thus far AND

if the shoe changes SAP tells you exactly when it changed and what it changed to.

Back to basics:

SAP tells you what is Hi and what is Lo:

Hi 1's with Hi 2s is ALWAYS S40

Hi 2s esp. with Hi 3s is always OTB4L

Hi 1's with Hi 3s is TB4L

Hi 1's with Hi 4+ is always TB4L

Lo 1's is Repeats

Lo 2s is TB4L

Hi 4+s is TB4L

When nothing stands out as Hi or Lo - that's RSAP

And, of course, we get Strong Side by 2 to 1 or more. F kills.

SAP with O/R gives you ALL that information.

Look, to play Baccarat, you MUST know that table.

It is only 9 short lines plus it is plain common sense.

It covers the whole waterfront.

THAT is how you beat Baccarat.

Hi Ellis,

I am still a bit confused with this shoe If I were to play pure SAP / RSAP.

If I were to enter the shoe at Play 19 betting the 1s will go up to 2s and I loses this bet as it turns out to be another 1s,

This time at play 20 , I will still bet for a repeat as 1s will go up to 2s which is MC, then I loses this bet again as it turns out to be another 1s.

By this time 1s and 2s will be close and almost the same.

Do I change to BET RSAP???

Should I change or should I wait it out?

Am I right that a biased shoe should be played SAP, ?

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[quote name=E. Clifton Davis;484g From the instructions posted on two different forums

How to play SAP/RSAP in which forums' date=' Where are there?

Loveseek, you are an MDB player. Go to the thread MDB+SAP in the MDB forum.

I can't tell if you are also a U2Hi member. If so, there is a thread called SAP/RSAP in that forum.

I see you virtually never post.

Look, your English is better than our Mandarin. We can usually figure out what you are trying to ask.

But if you don't post we can't help you. So please don't be afraid to post.

And welcome to the forum! even though I'm about 7 years late.

We want to hear more from you.

Edited by Ellis
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In RWS, Singapore,

I find most NOR biase shoe tends to change biase quite often,

If I were to enter play around play 12 as I am still a newbie

Chances of them them changing biase will take place around play 20-30 plus.

Out of 10 NOR biase shoe I play, maybe around 7 shoes change biase , if I am lucky, I would have exited the shoe before the change.

Hence I try to play SAP / RSAP, FLAt bet. Which gives me good a good feel and it's giving me positive results.

There are plenty of tables to choose , even in the morning, I just have to walk some distance to high and low limit areas and there will still be around 20plus tables to choose.,

If I go in the late noon, I think I should have around 70 tables or more to choose from.

I can't really confirm that they are casino pre shuffled cards, but they do have a room with glass windows which we can see through, they keep the preshuffle cards there. My apologies if I have caused some confusion her.

There was also a case of cheating by the dealer in 2013 ( it was in the news)where the dealer memorized the play outcome and signal the players the outcome, if it's factory preshuffled, how would that be possible?

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Hi Ellis,

I am still a bit confused with this shoe If I were to play pure SAP / RSAP.

If I were to enter the shoe at Play 19 betting the 1s will go up to 2s and I loses this bet as it turns out to be another 1s,

This time at play 20 , I will still bet for a repeat as 1s will go up to 2s which is MC, then I loses this bet again as it turns out to be another 1s.

By this time 1s and 2s will be close and almost the same.

Do I change to BET RSAP???

Should I change or should I wait it out?

Am I right that a biased shoe should be played SAP, ?

Good question. correct, bias = SAP; Neutral = RSAP

I don't think you'll see many RSAP shoes in Singapore but you'll likely see them now and then.

But lets take RSAP first anyway.

RSAP plays much like MDB+. You don't bet very often but your bets have a high hit rate.

OK, in an RSAP shoe your counts are running pretty close together.

The safest way to play RSAP is to bet flat bet only on the highest and the lowest counts.

You bet that the high count will go down and the low count will go up.

A more robust way to play RSAP is to bet the 2 highest counts will go down and the 2 lowest up.

You won't be right as often but still above 50% so you'll need a progression.

Try a 1,2 or a 112 or a 123.

But it isn't always that neat.

Sometimes you may have only 1 hi count and 3 low counts

or 3 hi counts and 1 lo count

or tied counts

That is why you need to know the mean count - I/4 of the play number.

Hi counts are counts above the mean count

Lo counts are counts below the mean count

When a count is dead on the mean count DON'T bet it.

So you are essentially betting all counts will go TOWARD the mean count.

But having said all that, again, I don't think you will see many RSAP shoes in Singapore.

But shit happens!

So lets look at what you are most likely to see. SAP shoes.

SAP shoes which is what you usually get with Regular cards

Your counts tend to go further and further away from the mean count.

Not every play mind you but that is the overall tendency.

So you COULD simply flat bet that all 4 counts move away from the mean.

Again, when a count is dead on the mean - don't bet it because your odds are only 50/50

and you wouldn't know which way to bet anyway.

And again you could just bet on the highest and the lowest counts to play it safe.

But the point I'm trying to get across to everyone is that SAP is not usually the best way to bet a SAP shoe.

But if you are going to flat bet, it IS the best way to play. Just quit at +5 or 6. Or even 3 or 4 if your wins are coming slow.

Usually we are better off going by the table I gave you. But Singapore has a history of changing biases.

So flat betting the 4 counts or even flat betting only the highest and lowest might be your best option.

But the columns you posted are HIGHLY biased calling for NOR type play using the table I posted.

So OK, with all that said, NOW lets go to your specific question.

What you are asking is what if my B443214 goes to B4432141 or even B44321411.

Well we have a saying in Baccarat: Runs breed runs.

And we have another saying ST runs breed ZZ runs.

So there you are betting Repeats.

That doesn't happen very often. We only do that when we have ST runs following ST runs

Which is what you were faced with.

But here's the thing:

Whenever we are Betting Repeats we keep a CLOSE eye on 1's.

BECAUSE 1's is the ONLY thing that can beat us. NOTHING else can.

But 1's are easy to accommodate - we simply slip into TB4L

which likes both ST AND ZZ runs.

That first 1 at play 14 is an early warning signal.

But we know that once we slip into TB4L 2s become poison.

Now 1's are good BUT we have to keep our eye on 2s.

I mos tlikely would have switched to TB4L after play 15.

But the next 1 I'm definitely going to switch to TB4L.

BECAUSE straight runs breed ZZ runs and 2s are Lo.

Our 2's count (the new enemy) is at 2 at play 18 vs a mean of 4.5.

AND mathematically 1's are twice as likely as 2s.

So yeah, I'm going to switch to TB4L and watch out for 2s.

I've got one other trick of the trade going for me:

2's are usually rare in high - count shoes.

But suppose I do start getting 2s at the expense of 3s??? (SOMETHING has to be low.)

Fine, I'll still play TB4L except I'll bet 2s stay 2. That makes the culprit 3s.

Also in your shoe thus far, I would be keeping a close eye on OTB4L Mode 3

BECAUSE it has done 2nd best thus far.

Another 2 or two, I'd probably switch. Now the culprit is 5s.

Unfortunately, no matter what you do, there is always a culprit.

We want our culprit to be whatever is LC so SAP is telling you what the culprit SHOULD be

But esp in Singapore the LC has a nasty habit of changing so we need to keep a close eye.

So, NEVER decide what you are going to play before you see the shoe you are up against.

And never decide how you are going to bet before you know what system you end up playing.

Always keep all your options open - don't tie your own hands.

Edited by Ellis
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Loveseek, you are an MDB player. Go to the thread MDB+SAP in the MDB forum.

I can't tell if you are also a U2Hi member. If so, there is a thread called SAP/RSAP in that forum.

Thanks Ellis,

I live in Chicago. We have four casino in here . They all use regular cards. Yes, NOR shoe sometimes, A few shoe MDB, Mostly mixture. So. SAP is important for us. I will become U2Hi member. I have job and sometimes very busy. I am impatience in casino. I lost my discipline a lot. How to practice discipline ? It is very important to me. I will post shoe If I be in casino.

I see you virtually never post.

Look, your English is better than our Mandarin. We can usually figure out what you are trying to ask.

But if you don't post we can't help you. So please don't be afraid to post.

And welcome to the forum! even though I'm about 7 years late.

We want to hear more from you.

Thanks, Ellis

I live in Chicago. There are four major casino here. They all use regular card. Yes NOR shoe sometimes. A few MBD, Mostly mixture. That is important to SAP. I will became to U2 Hi member. I have job and busy. When in casino, I am impatience and lost displine. How to practice it ? I know follow all your rule. It will easily beat casino.

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Hi Ellis . It's been a long time since I posted anything. First off I hope you are doing well . And you will always have my best of thoughts.

Second . As for not knowing SAP/RSAP (never did understand it). But reading and reading your above post's and the other two threads combined .a lightbulb went off , more like a search light . And I must say , I should have learned SAP sooner .

Well ,with all the above info and my old casino shoes that I have played . I have even more confidence when sitting at the casino table .

Again ,Thank you . You really are The Man .

Maxamillion

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Thanks, Ellis

I live in Chicago. There are four major casino here. They all use regular card. Yes NOR shoe sometimes. A few MBD, Mostly mixture. That is important to SAP. I will became to U2 Hi member. I have job and busy. When in casino, I am impatience and lost displine. How to practice it ? I know follow all your rule. It will easily beat casino.

Hmm, I don't know why I was thinking Singapore. Chicago is a long way from Singapore.

Anyway, I was working with a Chicago player. Can't remember the casino but you probably know it.

They had only one table open - therefore a lot of back players.

As I recall it was new cards every shoe prepped right there at the table.

Do you know which casino I'm talking about?

Anyway, the reason I mention it is that their card prep was very prone to producing OTB4L shoes.

Ha, and the players there did not know OTB4L. Therefore there was no reason for the casino to change tactics.

I'm thinking they are STILL dealing OTB4L shoes.

Do you know OTB4L?

But first, look, you simply can't play Baccarat with no discipline. - That's suicidal.

You can't think of Baccarat as a game.

It is not a game for you anymore. It's a job!

So, I'm guessing you end up betting more when you are losing than you do when you are winning. Right?

Well that's BACKWARDS.

The whole trick is to be betting more when you are winning and less when you are losing.

Or better yet, not at all. If you are losing QUIT. There is no shame in quitting.

Think of quitting as a skill.

Think about this: If you quit in all the games you are losing and only play the easy shoes -

You win overall - And THAT is why we are there. We are NOT there to play. We are there to win!

To outsmart them.

And quitting is one of the best ways to outsmart them.

Hey, if we aren't in the game they can't take our money.

But if we ARE in the easy games and ONLY the easy games, WE can take THEIR money.

It's a job like any other job. You can't play with emotion. Emotion loses.

You must play with skill which includes quitting with skill.

When you are winning - THAT is when you strengthen your progression. That's when you bet more.

But when you are losing, the LAST thing you want to do is bet more.

Get a grip on yourself. When you are losing - QUIT!

That's the sign of a true professional.

I know you know these things but knowing them doesn't cut it.

You've got to DO them! THAT'S what gets the job done!

STOP playing like an amature. That is what casinos depend on.

Think like a pro and play like a pro.

You can do that - can't you.

Edited by Ellis
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In RWS, Singapore,

I find most NOR biase shoe tends to change biase quite often,

If I were to enter play around play 12 as I am still a newbie

Chances of them them changing biase will take place around play 20-30 plus.

Out of 10 NOR biase shoe I play, maybe around 7 shoes change biase , if I am lucky, I would have exited the shoe before the change.

Hence I try to play SAP / RSAP, FLAt bet. Which gives me good a good feel and it's giving me positive results.

There are plenty of tables to choose , even in the morning, I just have to walk some distance to high and low limit areas and there will still be around 20plus tables to choose.,

If I go in the late noon, I think I should have around 70 tables or more to choose from.

I can't really confirm that they are casino pre shuffled cards, but they do have a room with glass windows which we can see through, they keep the preshuffle cards there. My apologies if I have caused some confusion her.

There was also a case of cheating by the dealer in 2013 ( it was in the news)where the dealer memorized the play outcome and signal the players the outcome, if it's factory preshuffled, how would that be possible?

Hmm, I would think that would be possible only if the dealer was taking advantage of casino cheating. If the casino was using fixed cards and there were only a few different shoe arrangements, the dealer could take advantage by eventually memprizing the card fall.

Another way I've seen it done is when the dealer deals the cards to his right hand instead of directly to the table and then snatches 2 cards for Player,

He can totally control the outcome. I know it sounds difficult but these guys practice for hours in front of mirrors. I've seen it done so flawless ly that the unsuspecting players thought it was just his style of dealing. BUT the dealer totally controlled which side won every hand.

Sooo, he could make his friends (accomplices) win every hand, at will, with no one the wiser. He could also make his enemies lose every hand - every single hand. I caught him red handed and the casino mgr fired him on the spot.

Ha, but don't do what my playing partner Ann did. She threw her chips at him.

Watch my lips: Never throw your chips at ANYBODY.

Edited by Ellis
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Hmm, I don't know why I was thinking Singapore. Chicago is a long way from Singapore.

Anyway, I was working with a Chicago player. Can't remember the casino but you probably know it.

They had only one table open - therefore a lot of back players.

As I recall it was new cards every shoe prepped right there at the table.

Do you know which casino I'm talking about?

Anyway, the reason I mention it is that their card prep was very prone to producing OTB4L shoes.

Ha, and the players there did not know OTB4L. Therefore there was no reason for the casino to change tactics.

I'm thinking they are STILL dealing OTB4L shoes.

Do you know OTB4L?

But first, look, you simply can't play Baccarat with no discipline. - That's suicidal.

You can't think of Baccarat as a game.

It is not a game for you anymore. It's a job!

So, I'm guessing you end up betting more when you are losing than you do when you are winning. Right?

Well that's BACKWARDS.

The whole trick is to be betting more when you are winning and less when you are losing.

Or better yet, not at all. If you are losing QUIT. There is no shame in quitting.

Think of quitting as a skill.

Think about this: If you quit in all the games you are losing and only play the easy shoes -

You win overall - And THAT is why we are there. We are NOT there to play. We are there to win!

To outsmart them.

And quitting is one of the best ways to outsmart them.

Hey, if we aren't in the game they can't take our money.

But if we ARE in the easy games and ONLY the easy games, WE can take THEIR money.

It's a job like any other job. You can't play with emotion. Emotion loses.

You must play with skill which includes quitting with skill.

When you are winning - THAT is when you strengthen your progression. That's when you bet more.

But when you are losing, the LAST thing you want to do is bet more.

Get a grip on yourself. When you are losing - QUIT!

That's the sign of a true professional.

I know you know these things but knowing them doesn't cut it.

You've got to DO them! THAT'S what gets the job done!

STOP playing like an amature. That is what casinos depend on.

Think like a pro and play like a pro.

You can do that - can't you.

Ellis: excellent post!

I became NOR member in Jan this year and lived in Cincinnati. OHIO. I never lose one section in 25 times. You really improved my play skill. This is for sure. But since I back to Chicago. I lose almost all. And I know I did not follow all your rule. I need learn more and post shoe in future.

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