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The best one liner from Ellis


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We get from great stuff from Ellis and here is a good example.

Last Sunday I had played one shoe already for +8 units playing NOR,

but I realised I was a bit tired. In the second shoe (also NOR) I was

up 3 units and then I had 3 losing bets. I quit the shoe and went home,

even for the shoe but +8 for the day.

Next day I reviewed the shoe to see what I had done.

What a fool!!!!!! My 3 losing bets were MDB+ bets that I had made

IN A NOR SHOE. My tiredness had effected my judgement.

Which brings me to Ellis's gem quote, along the lines of

"We don't loose because we played the RIGHT system badly,

we loose because we played the WRONG system well".

How true, how very true. Thanks Ellis.

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yes I have done that many times tried to look for an mdb+ bet when playing nor. it hasn't worked well although I still play some mdb bets while playing nor if I feel its a good bet and integrate them into nor progression. the more tools you bring to the table the easier it is to win

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I would like to add something to this. I was going to P/M Ellis the following message. But I think he deserves more than a private message.

Ellis,

I have been critical of you at times. Things I probably said in the public forum I should have either kept to myself or P/M'd you. I didn't and IN THE PUBLIC FORUM I want to apologize. I did some soul searching (With the help of my third glass of Johnny Walker Blue). As a consumer, when you pay $$ you expect results. The U2hi was a bust. But Ellis, I see you are working you ass off for us. I think the SAP/RSAP is the real deal. My entire day was practice shoes after practice shoes, golf, PARX then home for more practice shoes. The SAP/RSAP in conjunction with MDB+ worked like a charm. I played SAP/RSAP in what I thought to be the best course of action. I don't want to say what it is right now because I don't want to get yelled at. And when I go back to PARX on Sunday I could get my clock cleaned and then return to this forum yelling at Ellis again lol (Joking). In conclusion in front of everyone who will read it,

As I pour my fourth glass of JWBlue, I say cheers Ellis.

Great job Ellis. You are the man!!

We get from great stuff from Ellis and here is a good example.

Last Sunday I had played one shoe already for +8 units playing NOR,

but I realised I was a bit tired. In the second shoe (also NOR) I was

up 3 units and then I had 3 losing bets. I quit the shoe and went home,

even for the shoe but +8 for the day.

Next day I reviewed the shoe to see what I had done.

What a fool!!!!!! My 3 losing bets were MDB+ bets that I had made

IN A NOR SHOE. My tiredness had effected my judgement.

Which brings me to Ellis's gem quote, along the lines of

"We don't loose because we played the RIGHT system badly,

we loose because we played the WRONG system well".

How true, how very true. Thanks Ellis.

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I would like to add something to this. I was going to P/M Ellis the following message. But I think he deserves more than a private message.

Ellis,

I have been critical of you at times. Things I probably said in the public forum I should have either kept to myself or P/M'd you. I didn't and IN THE PUBLIC FORUM I want to apologize. I did some soul searching (With the help of my third glass of Johnny Walker Blue). As a consumer, when you pay $$ you expect results. The U2hi was a bust. But Ellis, I see you are working you ass off for us. I think the SAP/RSAP is the real deal. My entire day was practice shoes after practice shoes, golf, PARX then home for more practice shoes. The SAP/RSAP in conjunction with MDB+ worked like a charm. I played SAP/RSAP in what I thought to be the best course of action. I don't want to say what it is right now because I don't want to get yelled at. And when I go back to PARX on Sunday I could get my clock cleaned and then return to this forum yelling at Ellis again lol (Joking). In conclusion in front of everyone who will read it,

As I pour my fourth glass of JWBlue, I say cheers Ellis.

Great job Ellis. You are the man!!

Nothing like a Scotch rocks to prepare the mind for contemplation and JWB or Blue are good choices.

I used to do that after every session - find a quiet bar to study my cards with a Chevas to see where I could have improved.

Buy alas, these days my mind says YES but my kidneys say NO.

I certainly appreciate Way's efforts to make MDB+ all inclusive.

But I think he's trying to stretch a good thing too far.

There are MDB+ shoes and there are NOR shoes.

The two systems are virtually in exact opposition to each other.

NOR takes advantage of bias WHEN THERE IS BIAS.

MDB+ takes advantage of the lack of bias WHEN THERE IS NO BIAS.

I think we should allow both to conquer their own domains.

There is little point in making 2 units with MDB+ in a 20 unit NOR+ shoe.

And even worse in make -10 units with NOR in a +8 unit MDB+ shoe.

SAP knows the difference even if we don't !

There are those who will say: "I haven't got time for SAP!"

That is the same as saying: "I haven't got time to win!"

Edited by Ellis
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I haven't given up on Net Betting. I copyrighted Net Betting in 1992.

Net Betting is about the lowest form of betting there is.

It can be adjusted to cover ANY shoe, no matter the disparity and no matter the bias or lack of bias.

In fact there are even ways to take advantage of high disparity as well as low disparity - high bias as well as low bias.

BUT since it bets so low anyway, we must give it free rein to do its thing!

We can't tie its hands with a single form of betting

and we can't tie its hands to 2Hi.

That's like putting a 300 lb jockey on a race horse.

THAT is where I made my mistake!

But I won't make the same mistake in the new Final Word manual!

I'll show you how ANY shoe can be beat Net Betting!

Give me a shoe that is nearly all Bank or all Player - it can be beat soundly!

Or give me a shoe that is half Bank and half Player - It can be beat just as soundly!

Sure, you might get a rare 4 bet now and then -

But it will be an extremely high advantage 4 bet with 5 in reserve.

No, we can't limit it to 2. But we CAN limit it to 4.

BECAUSE, you can ALWAYS oppose a 6 with a 2. Ever think of THAT?

Now you are giving it free rein while limiting the consequences.

Edited by Ellis
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I certainly appreciate Way's efforts to make MDB+ all inclusive.

But I think he's trying to stretch a good thing too far.

There are MDB+ shoes and there are NOR shoes.

The two systems are virtually in exact opposition to each other.

NOR takes advantage of bias WHEN THERE IS BIAS.

MDB+ takes advantage of the lack of bias WHEN THERE IS NO BIAS.

I think we should allow both to conquer their own domains.

Making MDB+ all inclusive is not my goal or intent. I do agree with you that some shoes are not as good for MDB+. I just haven't seen clear evidence, on the tables, that the bad MDB+ shoes are those that are more biased. Yes, I DO agree with your logic -- but when I look at the MDB+ shoes where I have lost, some have a strong bias, but at least half of them exhibit very little bias. Thankfully, that population of shoes to examine is quite low. Lol.

I am finding it is very possible to play MDB+ and NOR in the same shoe, provided you use strategic strikes with NOR. In order to have a good MDB+ shoe there must first be some bias to set up the bets. MDB+ can still be successful even with biased shoes -- the delay helps, and you might even want to sometimes delay two times.

Last night I played a shoe at Caesars -- it was the same large bac table where Ellis experienced the infamous "no 2s" shoe in the crawl last summer. I sat down at hand 27 with SAP counts of 5 6 12 4. I started playing OTBL while noting MDB signals. The first couple signals I delayed 1 time because the shoes bias to 2s and 3s got even stronger. One signal I delayed twice. Then I started to bet the MDB signals because the bias was getting too out of whack. In this highly biased shoe, I won 6 units with MDB+ and won 12 units playing short sequences of OTBL and S40. The poor guy from South America at the other end of the table had a 400k credit line -- and was losing hand after hand at 25k each. Most hands he and I were flipping the cards, and it was not pretty for him. No one seems to know OTBL, and then when I would make a very large bet that seems to go against what everyone at the table is expecting (those would be the MDB bets), and I win every one of them. Thanks for everything Ellis!

Edited by ECD
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Congratulations Buddy !! It's always a pleasure to learn from the BEST !!

Making MDB+ all inclusive is not my goal or intent. I do agree with you that some shoes are not as good for MDB+. I just haven't seen clear evidence, on the tables, that the bad MDB+ shoes are those that are more biased. Yes, I DO agree with your logic -- but when I look at the MDB+ shoes where I have lost, some have a strong bias, but at least half of them exhibit very little bias. Thankfully, that population of shoes to examine is quite low. Lol.

I am finding it is very possible to play MDB+ and NOR in the same shoe, provided you use strategic strikes with NOR. In order to have a good MDB+ shoe there must first be some bias to set up the bets. MDB+ can still be successful even with biased shoes -- the delay helps, and you might even want to sometimes delay two times.

Last night I played a shoe at Caesars -- it was the same large bac table where Ellis experienced the infamous "no 2s" shoe in the crawl last summer. I sat down at hand 27 with SAP counts of 5 6 12 4. I started playing OTBL while noting MDB signals. The first couple signals I delayed 1 time because the shoes bias to 2s and 3s got even stronger. One signal I delayed twice. Then I started to bet the MDB signals because the bias was getting too out of whack. In this highly biased shoe, I won 6 units with MDB+ and won 12 units playing short sequences of OTBL and S40. The poor guy from South America at the other end of the table had a 400k credit line -- and was losing hand after hand at 25k each. Most hands he and I were flipping the cards, and it was not pretty for him. No one seems to know OTBL, and then when I would make a very large bet that seems to go against what everyone at the table is expecting (those would be the MDB bets), and I win every one of them. Thanks for everything Ellis!

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  • Baccarat Hall of Fame Member

Had the good fortune to meet up with Way2Fast yesterday.

We exchanged thoughts over how the game has changed over the last few years, and how Ellis has helped " guide us" to learn how to navigate through rougher baccarat waters than might have existed just a few years back...

We all owe him and Keith a lot for keeping this forum headed in a positive direction.

Then we went and " scouted tote boards " for a while, commenting to one another how we could see the most favorable opportunities " unfold" right in front of us.

We came across two tables side-by-side... One shoe was highly MDB favorable, while the shoe at the table next to it was clearly a REPEAT shoe and ended up with 21 opposites and 48 repeats!

The message is clear...no matter what " system" you favor, or what your " go to" betting strategy is, the more you understand about a " handful" of methods, the easier you will see -WITH CLARITY- what bias may or may not exist in a given shoe...and to spot changes as they occur within the shoe which may alter your approach, or tell you it's time to exit the shoe.

Nice to meet another forum member like W2F, and exchange ideas in person with another player who takes the forum, and the game of Baccarat, seriously, and is not put off by having to do what it takes to win.

He definitely knows his stuff!

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That is exactly why my trip to Macau was so successful

With many more tables than I was used to I could just circulate

through the 20 or so tables available and pick the best of the

opportunities on offer

You have summed it up perfectly

regards

Pando

Had the good fortune to meet up with Way2Fast yesterday.

We exchanged thoughts over how the game has changed over the last few years, and how Ellis has helped " guide us" to learn how to navigate through rougher baccarat waters than might have existed just a few years back...

We all owe him and Keith a lot for keeping this forum headed in a positive direction.

Then we went and " scouted tote boards " for a while, commenting to one another how we could see the most favorable opportunities " unfold" right in front of us.

We came across two tables side-by-side... One shoe was highly MDB favorable, while the shoe at the table next to it was clearly a REPEAT shoe and ended up with 21 opposites and 48 repeats!

The message is clear...no matter what " system" you favor, or what your " go to" betting strategy is, the more you understand about a " handful" of methods, the easier you will see -WITH CLARITY- what bias may or may not exist in a given shoe...and to spot changes as they occur within the shoe which may alter your approach, or tell you it's time to exit the shoe.

Nice to meet another forum member like W2F, and exchange ideas in person with another player who takes the forum, and the game of Baccarat, seriously, and is not put off by having to do what it takes to win.

He definitely knows his stuff!

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Had the good fortune to meet up with Way2Fast yesterday.

We exchanged thoughts over how the game has changed over the last few years, and how Ellis has helped " guide us" to learn how to navigate through rougher baccarat waters than might have existed just a few years back...

We all owe him and Keith a lot for keeping this forum headed in a positive direction.

Then we went and " scouted tote boards " for a while, commenting to one another how we could see the most favorable opportunities " unfold" right in front of us.

We came across two tables side-by-side... One shoe was highly MDB favorable, while the shoe at the table next to it was clearly a REPEAT shoe and ended up with 21 opposites and 48 repeats!

The message is clear...no matter what " system" you favor, or what your " go to" betting strategy is, the more you understand about a " handful" of methods, the easier you will see -WITH CLARITY- what bias may or may not exist in a given shoe...and to spot changes as they occur within the shoe which may alter your approach, or tell you it's time to exit the shoe.

Nice to meet another forum member like W2F, and exchange ideas in person with another player who takes the forum, and the game of Baccarat, seriously, and is not put off by having to do what it takes to win.

He definitely knows his stuff!

It is always great to meet in person other like-minded members of the BTC community. And spending just a short period of time Saturday morning with Kevin and his friend was a real joy. As you tell from his posts, Kevin has a good mind for the game and he clearly also has the discipline and focus. No wonder he has been successful. I'm looking forward to future trips when we can spend some more time playing and beating the casinos together.

This was a brief stopover in Vegas on my way home, and I managed to catch up Kevin; meet up with a friend for a nice dinner Saturday night; and play portions of a few shoes at Caesars. MDB+ was working well, racking up 13 units over three shoes (17 of 18 progressions won). Now just 18 units from the finish line. I may not get back to Vegas until late July, but it's looking good for completing the upward progression soon.

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John,

You are an inspiration. I made a lot of money last winter in Baccarat. I also had a bad things happen to me. I have been humbled. I decided to take the time and sharpen my game. Come November, when it is too cold for golf, I am going to hit this game hard. I am going to use all the things that you and Ellis have taught as well as Kevin and Brad. I am in all the way on this. Sometimes you need to take one step back to take two steps forward.

Cheers

QUOTE=way2fast;48836]It is always great to meet in person other like-minded members of the BTC community. And spending just a short period of time Saturday morning with Kevin and his friend was a real joy. As you tell from his posts, Kevin has a good mind for the game and he clearly also has the discipline and focus. No wonder he has been successful. I'm looking forward to future trips when we can spend some more time playing and beating the casinos together.

This was a brief stopover in Vegas on my way home, and I managed to catch up Kevin; meet up with a friend for a nice dinner Saturday night; and play portions of a few shoes at Caesars. MDB+ was working well, racking up 13 units over three shoes (17 of 18 progressions won). Now just 18 units from the finish line. I may not get back to Vegas until late July, but it's looking good for completing the upward progression soon.

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Hi McVince here's to a good year ahead I'm planning big things too and just about ready to strike hard too.

Its great to have guys like Way2fast, Kevin, Oz etc who are on the front line playing for real that are willing to share what they do with us

Not to mention Ellis who's always there as well.

In turn I hope we can have the same success and give back to the new guys starting out.

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