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Right... I kept playing the high count... right after the 6iar OTB4L rocketed back up and I won with +5. If the repeats all of a sudden went higher I would have switched to them (exactly what happened in a different shoe). But in this case OTB4L was always higher... there just happened to be a 6iar that came steamrolling in. I really like Ellis's idea of using a secondary prog on runs. Or after so many losses just wait for it to end. But if the high count is on them... then ride it out.

How many times do you think there was a "no bet"? This wouldn't really be a problem with a casino with a lot of tables... but my casino only has a few. Most of the time there are players. But sometimes it's empty and I play alone. They don't deal free hands and I have to bet both sides to kill the hand... which I lose in commission. Might be kind of tough playin by myself with "no bets".

I was just flat betting. Looking over a 1,2 prog would have done better. However, a 1,2,3 prog would not have done well. Maybe if our stop loss was higher it would be fine, but if you lose the 1,2,3 its pretty much game over if you aren't ahead already. Looking at the shoes, I lost 3 hands in a row a couple times. Flat betting repeats on the high count works well. It got really hairy in one shoe though. OTB4L was ahead by a wide margin... then I hit a 6iar. TB4L was catching up, BUT OTB4L was still well ahead of a 5 count. I know we can't just bet against the run. Maybe once the High Count gets to a certain point, then stop betting it. A shoe usually stays high, but not completely high all the way though.

Thanks for the clarification guys. I understand now. I was doing it wrong... played 4 shoes but still hit +5 for each one. Was betting whichever count was highest and applying the rules for whichever it was (0,1&2/3&4/5 or more). Will replay each one the correct way and see the difference in advantage.

Very interesting concept - will definately try it. I am confused about when to bet the high side. My understanding was only to bet high when the count was 5 + or -? And I thought a count of 3 was a low side bet towards 0?

Yea I have been practicing Basic NOR and so far the most trouble I have had is OTB4L. Curious on Ellis's take on it. I was running into trouble on zigzag runs... I don't know of a way to combat that so I've just been waiting until a 2iar to start betting. It's working out pretty well. The only problem is if the shoe is low in 1iars you miss all those bets... and due to that it only prolongs the time it takes to achieve +5 and it keeps you in the shoe longer increasing your risk of losing. So far in practice I am up 56 units in 20 shoes. I only lost 1 shoe for -4 units. So my average is 2.8 units a shoe. Can't seem to get to 5 units average but that is because I quit with 0 units on a few shoes.

If 2s are high and we always wait until a 2iar to start... do we ever even use the secondary prog? Just a 1,2 bet against 2 and 3iar? Or would we still use the secondary prog against 3iars with just that single bet against 2 first.

Seems like whether the shoe is high or low in 2IARs will determine a lot.

Do you think it's best if you are already winning and in the right NOR system to always go OTR? The "3 bet rule" would have a 2 bet ATR. I understand that however you choose to make the bet it won't always be right. If that were the case we'd all already have a million dollars! Oh and if you do decide to bet ATR and you lose... Would you wait until the run ended to continue on?

My casino only has 3 tables and 2 are usually only open. I've been playing practice shoes and it has been doing well. Sometimes you hit a rough patch but sometimes all you can do is laugh when you win bet after bet. I don't have the luxury of hit and run twist bets due to there only being 2 tables in my casino. So when I practice I simply flat bet NOR until I get a twist bet then bet that with a bigger bet. It's a small sample size but I'm ahead 30 units on Twist bets and around 20 regular bets just flat betting NOR in 10 shoes. I'm not playing NOR for a profit but just to keep the game moving and keep my seat (what if u are the only player at the table). Katchaz - I noticed you mentioned u said u play Twist U1D2M2 in an earlier post but said U1D1M2 this time. Was one a typo?

Ha - yea I saw that too. Just read through the s40 Manual again and forgot how chalk full of information was in it. I wonder if we'll be using SAP like in the manual to determine modes... or just go by the 3 bet rule... or a + - count... or whatever. When you read through the manual it makes so much sense as a holistic approach. And it gives you a lot of confidence after reading it. I hope we can iron out any wrinkles and everyone will be winning +5 and more betting big units.

I will be happy to test U1D2. I have an 8 deck shoe that I practice on (same exact way as the casino). I can't duplicate their shuffles, so it is completely random, but it mimics live shoes pretty well. I have even had stronger biases than in the casino. Maybe it's due to the law of small numbers. If you or anyone else doesn't want me to post the results because of the fact that they aren't live casino shoes - and that will discredit the results then I won't. Let me know. What do you think... if I did not make it back down to a 1 bet in the same shoe should I carry the same bet over to the next shoe? Or start over with a 1?

Very very interesting Ellis. Do you always go back to a 1 bet after losing your 123 OTR (if you decide to go against 3's exclusively)? Would you ever recommend to keep going playing U1D2? I know the idea is to get +5 a shoe "breaking even" on 3's. But after playing U1D2 for so long I see just how powerful it can be. I don't know, just thinking out loud. Maybe that would hurt the +5 goal. I guess it would help and hurt at the same time. Back to back shoes with heavy 3's wouldn't be good. Hmm - but then you would go s40 M1 or M3 I presume...

Do you always play U1D1 until it resolves no matter what? If you find yourself in some high bets for a while do you ever go down 2 on a win then continue on with U1D1? Also do you always use M2?

This is how I exclusively play now and it has improved my win rate a lot. Most will argue with me but I have a stop loss of 25 playing U1D1 - down 2 every other bet. I've turned many losing -8 shoes into winners. I had to up it... my casino only has a couple tables that are always full. If u get out at -8 u might not a chance to play again - many wasted trips that way. Straight U1D1 was hurting me... But playing down 2 every other bet keeps me in the game for a long time. I still lose sometimes but less often... almost always when a shoe starts one way then changes on a dime... I decide to switch systems... then the shoe changes right back wiping me out. Sucks but it happens. I hear talk about people winning 100 shoes in a row... all I can think is "what the..." Ellis is 4D win rate really in the high 90% range? Should I move to that/add that to my arsenal? Is it difficult to learn? I can play NOR+ backwards in my sleep but don't even know how to net bet!

I do trust u Ellis. One of the reasons I joined the forum. I knew I would catch some flack for that saying I don't use a scorecard. But I know you're here to help and want to give us all the tools possible. I didn't mean I use the tote board like the other players. I just meant I follow that for my bet placement. I still use NOR+ rules by the book... just haven't been keeping a count while I do it. But I realize I am handicapping myself... I'll start keeping track of counts. Look forward to the new start game...

I think I'm probably the only player on here that uses the horizontal tote board and not a vertical scorecard when I play. For that reason, I've always just watched the events to decide my play and never used an O/R count. For this new game start - is it required to use an O/R count or can you achieve the same result by watching the events? If so, is that something you will go over? I remember reading somewhere that you were also talking about using an O/R count to replace the 3rd bet rule. So should I start keeping an O/R count when I play so I can be up to speed with these new concepts?

Hey Ellis - great play by play. It's refreshing to see that I play almost just like you - your teachings have sunk in well. I did have one question I can't seem to figure out.... Why do you bet 3 units on the player at hand 22? Shouldn't it be a 3 unit bet on the bank? Which would then lead to a 5 unit bet at hand 24 on the bank making THAT your first down 3 bet using Mode 3? Just curious why you bet 2 players IAR would go to 3 players IAR? Doesn't standard OTB4L always bet against that? (unless you have some SAP players noting that 2's were going to 3 and wanted to get fancy) The only thing I can think of is that you "started" standard OTB4L at hand 22. Yea I think that's what you did... has it always been done like that???

6 deck is all they have in the high limit room at my casino. I did not find it very depndable like you said. Sometimes I did very well. But I found myself losing more than 3 hands in a row many times. I have a hard time completing my stacks before losing it back. I'm a bac player so I admit, I'm not at a high level of NBJ. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, Ellis. You might play those same tables in Pittsburgh and dominate. I could almost always find a head to head table in the high limit... theres never that many players at any time of day. What would you reccomend? Play the 6 deck for a small win and quit? The main pit has 25 and 50 min games that are 8 deck... would it be better to get at the casino earlier and play those?

The single biggest tip that improved my game was using a 2 bet progression ATR in this instance. I do sort of like the on off on too though. Say we lost the second OTR bet (ex 7iar OTB4L). Should we continue on normal play with the same unit bet? Or up it by one unit do you think? I guess it depends how much we are ahead...

Awesome - thanks for the tips. I tried this with a practice shoe and got +19. But you sure weren't kidding about a roller coaster ride! OTB4L is my bread and butter, but I really like a F/SS type system. Even though with your help I can handle runs/chop, it's just so much less stressful not having to worry about them and actually preferring them for a change. I have a question about the +10 (any system). Say you get back to a 1 bet and lose 3 bets in a row. The 4th bet would take you below +1... but making those 4+ bets is why it's NOR+ and the reason I got to +10 in the first place. So do we make that 4 bet and risk doping below 0 units? It's sort of like once you hit +10, then you have 3 chances to move forward. I've been playing this way and sometimes I get into the +20 range and sometimes I get down to a +3 or +4 and have to quit because I refuse to go below 0 units but am itching to make that 4 bet. Makes me sort of want to use a +10 stop win sometimes. What do you think?

Hmm... I like this. At my casino, the shoes come pre-shuffled. But they are put into the machine shuffler before they are played. Sometimes the shoes are extremely biased, and sometimes they are extremely inconsistent (perhaps random or designed). But I also practice at home with an 8 deck shoe just to get the plays down/money management etc... it is obviously random since its been played over and over again both Bac and BJ without casino shuffling. But even that produces pretty clean biases at times. I got a +45 playing OTB4L on a "random" shoe (more than I've ever won in the casino). And it was only U1D2... could only image what it would have been if I bumped it up to U1D1M2. But back to my main point… what were your capture points with a 20 stop loss and stop win? Anything other than a getting back to a winning 2 bet in the second half? Like if you are close to +20, but don’t want to make a bet that would take you below a certain number of units? Or +15 or +10 for that matter...

Awesome - thanks for the advice. That all sounds like good stuff. I do flat bet until my first win... in the shoe start example to losing to a 5iar, don't we win the very first bet on the repeat (2nd hand of the shoe). Right?

Now that I have the technical play down I no longer have questions about that, but now am flooded with questions about money management which I didn't realize before since I was focused on learning how to play the ins and outs of Nor+. It is just as important if not more than the plays themselves. What if you qualify a table as OTBL and you sit down and immediately lose 6 units to a 5iar. The next bet is 4 units OTR. But that would take you to -10 units if you lost taking you past the -8 stop loss. Wouldn't you have to just sort of make the bet and go for it? I've also noticed since I implied the proper stop win/loss/capture points I don't even get the chance to use the 5 or 6 unit bets (I know - idealy you don't want to have to even get that far). Is this right? Before I tightened up stop win/loss/capture points I was hitting the occasional 5 and 6 unit bets. And a lot of times it helped keep me in the game and turn it around for a +20. I'm finding it hard to get past +10 without those bets. But I admit shamefully I exceeded the stop loss before and paid the price as well.