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Attended the Team Play Blackjack Forum this weekend, which was combined with an NOR " refresher course/ practice session" for seminar attendees...

Had to have been at least 70 people at the Team Play BJ session Saturday, held at a Casino Dealers School ...

Instructive and entertaining 6 hours, after which my friend and I retreated to The Mandalay Bay for some R and R...

After dinner, since my friend still trying to grasp NOR, first we headed to the BAC tables over at the Gold Coast...lots of tables, lots of games to decide which one best fit NOR play...

Rather than pick a specific table, we bounced from table- to -table , so that at each "stop" I could show Mark how NOR might be used to address the shoe results posted thus far, and then on to another table to illustrate again another logical entry point and when to get in/ get out...Left within the hour with a $400 profit each, starting with a base of $300 apiece...all plays we're quarters and never bet more than 3 units

Mark requested we head back to the Mandalay Bay Hotel and we play a shoe from start-to-finish, using NOR principles and application thereof...

Here is the shoe:

B321115112111213232332222221111332211

Needless to say, we "killed" that shoe, and all due to OTBL/TBL disparity by the end of the shoe...B=34, P=33...Opp=34, repeat=32...looks neutral, huh? Yeah, and sure enough OTBL came thru with flying colors with a 41/24 disparity vs TBL...I was playing Black Beauties, so with careful money management pulled 17 units out of this shoe...

Not sure whether it was the scotch, or we were just plain fired up by the Team Play BJ seminar, but around 2 am we sat at an empty BJ table with $300 apiece...me at FB , playing the BP and Mark at 3B playing the SP..about 3 hands in, here comes 3 guys...decided to join us...undaunted, we stuck to our plan, and 2 of them quickly left, while their buddy hung around for about 30 hands.

At $25/ unit Mark left after losing $100 over the course of about 15 hands, and as he walked by me I handed him 4 green chips to " bring him back to even"... I carried on at FB with the lone survivor of the gang of three who still remained at the table..nice guy, and maybe next time I will clue him in on the fact that I continued to play Team BJ concepts against the dealer, and while not an "official member" of my Team, I " deputized" him without his even knowing it...

Another 20 hands, and I was up almost $350, so I retreated to meet up with Mark at our rendezvous point, The Eye Candy nightclub. A quick divvy up of our team profits ( 50/50 split), and we ordered another round of McClellan 12 to celebrate the night...

So, just what was the price of admission? Well, $799 for the Team Play BJ seminar was all, since room was comped courtesy of MLife players Club, and Southwest came through with the airline ticket to Vegas...all in, for the single day of Team Play Seminar, including dinner I paid for Mark and his wife, Mark and I hit the hay at 4:00 am over $1800 for the good guys, after paying for the seminar!

Once again, thanks to Ellis and Keith for a great seminar and a couple of nifty Parlor Tricks to apply to BJ play...I will definitely get a copy of NBJ as I am once again " energized" about getting back into blackjack play as well as BAC

As for Mark, while he and I have played BAC a few times over the years, by the end of our Gold Coast and Mandalay Bay BAC excursion, he can play NOR at about the 80% confidence level...

Old saying:

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.

Teach a man how to fish, feed him for a lifetime.

Well, if you need to know,Mark and his wife both had the salmon for dinner, and I had the Ahi Tuna...

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Hello All!!

First, nice story and Vegas report Mr.Kachatz. Good work.

So, I guess this is as good a place as any to post a related NOR question...

I am relatively new with NOR but I understand the principles--I think--so I know that 2 of the 3 systems can overlap to beat a shoe. With the shoe that was posted here, would anyone see fit to use system 40 on it for a quick entry/exit of a certain target win? Or is the consensus overwhelmingly OTB4L? If I am reading the shoe correctly, S40 could be applied?

Mr. Seahog, I would like your opinion also if you wouldn't mind. You sent me some inspiring pm's on the "other site" which helped me to decide to join this site, and I appreciate them.(obviously I used a different log on name--pm if curious) No looking back since, thanks again. Specifically, you had mentioned that you mostly looked for,or encountered, S40 shoes. Would you have looked at a portion of this shoe if you saw it and would you have played it? Or would you have passed? Why?

Oh, Kachatz do you follow the NOR money management, OTR, etc?

Thank you to all responders.

Dave

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Mr. Seahog, I would like your opinion also if you wouldn't mind. You sent me some inspiring pm's on the "other site" which helped me to decide to join this site, and I appreciate them.(obviously I used a different log on name--pm if curious) No looking back since, thanks again. Specifically, you had mentioned that you mostly looked for,or encountered, S40 shoes. Would you have looked at a portion of this shoe if you saw it and would you have played it? Or would you have passed? Why?

Dave

B321115112111213232332222221111332211

Kramden,

Assuming I came on to this shoe at the start while playing online, I would have most probably started a test wager at Hand 9 with a win, then lost the next two and then a win OTR for a single wager, then back to Opps.

Lost hand 12, win hand 13, 14, 15, 16, lose 17, win 18,19,20,21. Lose 22 and exit shoe in this online game.

Basic System 40 here. Identify and "confirm" after hand 8 and jump in. Take my "quick" profit and exit.

I may have started it at hand 8 but wanted to "make sure" the singles were going to hold up. The short trend was moving to positive on the count so I decided to make the entry at hand 9.

Hope this helps as my online play generally goes like that. Look at the shoe, see if it fits the S40 mold. Jump in, make a few units, get out. If the chops become really good, stay in but being very conservative, I'm still happy with a +4 or +5 win anytime!

MVS

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Hello All!!

First, nice story and Vegas report Mr.Kachatz. Good work.

So, I guess this is as good a place as any to post a related NOR question...

I am relatively new with NOR but I understand the principles--I think--so I know that 2 of the 3 systems can overlap to beat a shoe. With the shoe that was posted here, would anyone see fit to use system 40 on it for a quick entry/exit of a certain target win? Or is the consensus overwhelmingly OTB4L? If I am reading the shoe correctly, S40 could be applied?

Mr. Seahog, I would like your opinion also if you wouldn't mind. You sent me some inspiring pm's on the "other site" which helped me to decide to join this site, and I appreciate them.(obviously I used a different log on name--pm if curious) No looking back since, thanks again. Specifically, you had mentioned that you mostly looked for,or encountered, S40 shoes. Would you have looked at a portion of this shoe if you saw it and would you have played it? Or would you have passed? Why?

Oh, Kachatz do you follow the NOR money management, OTR, etc?

Thank you to all responders.

Dave

Kramden/Dave

I have had many people ask me about NOR, to send them the manual, to explain to them, etc. how I play. I refuse to send NOR manual to anyone, but anybody asks me I refer them to this forum so they can get their own copy.

I can best describe my method of play as per post 9 and 26 of thread Anyone Making Money with NOR? on the other forum. NOR is just Neutral Opposite Repeat, and I do not play precisely as NOR manual, but I simply take the BASIC precepts of Neutral Opposite and Repeat and play a very simple game where I focus on the widest disparities from 50/50 and bet accordingly.

MM I leave up to you, as there are so many concepts it really is up to the individual to learn whether they prefer to act like a FormulaOne race- car driver, or more like the little old lady who only drives once a week ( to the casino, of course!).....most of us are somewhere in between, and NOR is far-and -away the best drivers education manual for Baccarat I have ever come across!

And yes, no matter how good of a driver we think we are, sometimes it is just a better idea to take the bus or walk to where we need to get to...like anything else, always better to learn to walk first, before you run.

Hope this helps...

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Hey guys,

Thanks for both of your replies. Seahog: makes perfect sense. That is what I thought too when I first saw the shoe--that S40 could apply. Also, I like the conservative +few units and leave while my mind is fresh.

Kachatz:I have been a member here and have the manual. I have been in the process of trying to switch my mind over to playing it's concepts(while still keeping my "skills" of trending a shoe in tact.(for whatever it will be worth in the end,haha). So you must be Bac? Good posts over there. Are you a writer by trade? I was just trying to see if you had a "magic mm" to go with NOR that maybe I didn't experiment with yet. (I only prefer conservative mm so your thread sparked an interest)

Thanks again men!!

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Kramden-

Not sure I can be much help on the MM angle.

There are many, many ideas on this topic, and If you take the time to read about them, and then practice a few, I think you will ultimately come to the realization that they all work sometimes, and none of them work all of the time.

Likely you already know this !!

Had to learn myself through trial and error ( seemed I was always on trial, making errors!) ... Finally learned patience enough to act more aggressively when winning, and conservatively when things not going so well.

Good luck!

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Just got back a few hours ago.

Yes, turnout was excellent for both the Team Play seminar on Sat and the NOR seminar on Sun. Thanks guys!

Since we were at the dealers school, we were able to set up 5 or 6 Team Play games right there at the school. We had hired several pro dealers for that purpose. The practice games went well but the real games in the casino Sat -Mon nights went even better. Teams found that in actual casino games we were, in fact, able to quickly get the dealer break rate up to 50% and even higher in many cases. Dealers and pit bosses were incredulous that players were often standing on totals of only 8 or 9. "Nobody does that!" Ha, but when the dealer breaks, YOU WIN no matter your hand total. That's the whole idea. One team reported 20 dealer breaks in a row. One of our pro dealers with 14 years experience said he had never even heard of that before. But such is Team BJ!

I did a High Limit room BJ exhibition @ Flamingo for the guys both on Sat night and again on Mon night. Sun night, the conditions weren't right. Did about $2000 in ten minutes on Fri and $3000 in 30 min on Mon. Played head to head with the dealer 2 deck third base both nights. Straight NBJ 3rd base BJ. My lowest bet was $100 (the table min) and except for one 3 bet which I won, my high bet was $200. Reminisent of Taj 1 and 2! Both nights I was the only player in the room. Each night a guy tried to get in, lost his shirt, and left.

Keith spent the whole time Sat night arguing with the girl at the comp desk in the back of the High Limit room trying to get my $500 room comped. I walked over just in time to hear. "Sir we are not going to comp a guy when my computer shows him with a 25 year winning history at all our Rewards casinos." Having a good sense for pure logic, that was all I needed to hear and I went back to the table leaving Keith with an impossible task. They did reduce my rate to high stakes table rate so my bill ended up at $400. Then Mon night Keith spent the whole time arguing over $400 while I won 7.5 times that. Her logic is easy for me. Keith's, not so much. But, you know, keeing expenses down is one of his many jobs. But now, I'll never get so much as a cup of coffee comped at any Rewards casino. Such is life and who cares.

But then the next morning Keith had what I thought was a really good idea. (That's his job too!)

"How about doing a High Stakes BJ seminar?!"

What are you actually looking at when you walk in a high limit room?

What's a good table?

Just as important - What's a bad table?

How do you select a table?

How to you select a system?

How do you decide how to bet?

When do you depart?

How to you just keep doing this time after time?

I told him: Keith, I could write a hundred tips on that very subject right off the top of my head.

"High Stakes takes a special instinct but that instinct can be learned!"

I'll leave the rest to him - That's one of his jobs TOO!

All I can say about it right now is: My ambulatory status did not turn out to be anywhere near the problem I feared at the Vegas seminar. There are ways to "get around" Pun intended! I'm learning too.

Attended the Team Play Blackjack Forum this weekend, which was combined with an NOR " refresher course/ practice session" for seminar attendees...

Had to have been at least 70 people at the Team Play BJ session Saturday, held at a Casino Dealers School ...

Instructive and entertaining 6 hours, after which my friend and I retreated to The Mandalay Bay for some R and R...

After dinner, since my friend still trying to grasp NOR, first we headed to the BAC tables over at the Gold Coast...lots of tables, lots of games to decide which one best fit NOR play...

Rather than pick a specific table, we bounced from table- to -table , so that at each "stop" I could show Mark how NOR might be used to address the shoe results posted thus far, and then on to another table to illustrate again another logical entry point and when to get in/ get out...Left within the hour with a $400 profit each, starting with a base of $300 apiece...all plays we're quarters and never bet more than 3 units

Mark requested we head back to the Mandalay Bay Hotel and we play a shoe from start-to-finish, using NOR principles and application thereof...

Here is the shoe:

B321115112111213232332222221111332211

Needless to say, we "killed" that shoe, and all due to OTBL/TBL disparity by the end of the shoe...B=34, P=33...Opp=34, repeat=32...looks neutral, huh? Yeah, and sure enough OTBL came thru with flying colors with a 41/24 disparity vs TBL...I was playing Black Beauties, so with careful money management pulled 17 units out of this shoe...

Not sure whether it was the scotch, or we were just plain fired up by the Team Play BJ seminar, but around 2 am we sat at an empty BJ table with $300 apiece...me at FB , playing the BP and Mark at 3B playing the SP..about 3 hands in, here comes 3 guys...decided to join us...undaunted, we stuck to our plan, and 2 of them quickly left, while their buddy hung around for about 30 hands.

At $25/ unit Mark left after losing $100 over the course of about 15 hands, and as he walked by me I handed him 4 green chips to " bring him back to even"... I carried on at FB with the lone survivor of the gang of three who still remained at the table..nice guy, and maybe next time I will clue him in on the fact that I continued to play Team BJ concepts against the dealer, and while not an "official member" of my Team, I " deputized" him without his even knowing it...

Another 20 hands, and I was up almost $350, so I retreated to meet up with Mark at our rendezvous point, The Eye Candy nightclub. A quick divvy up of our team profits ( 50/50 split), and we ordered another round of McClellan 12 to celebrate the night...

So, just what was the price of admission? Well, $799 for the Team Play BJ seminar was all, since room was comped courtesy of MLife players Club, and Southwest came through with the airline ticket to Vegas...all in, for the single day of Team Play Seminar, including dinner I paid for Mark and his wife, Mark and I hit the hay at 4:00 am over $1800 for the good guys, after paying for the seminar!

Once again, thanks to Ellis and Keith for a great seminar and a couple of nifty Parlor Tricks to apply to BJ play...I will definitely get a copy of NBJ as I am once again " energized" about getting back into blackjack play as well as BAC

As for Mark, while he and I have played BAC a few times over the years, by the end of our Gold Coast and Mandalay Bay BAC excursion, he can play NOR at about the 80% confidence level...

Old saying:

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.

Teach a man how to fish, feed him for a lifetime.

Well, if you need to know,Mark and his wife both had the salmon for dinner, and I had the Ahi Tuna...

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Hello All!!

First, nice story and Vegas report Mr.Kachatz. Good work.

So, I guess this is as good a place as any to post a related NOR question...

I am relatively new with NOR but I understand the principles--I think--so I know that 2 of the 3 systems can overlap to beat a shoe. With the shoe that was posted here, would anyone see fit to use system 40 on it for a quick entry/exit of a certain target win? Or is the consensus overwhelmingly OTB4L? If I am reading the shoe correctly, S40 could be applied?

Mr. Seahog, I would like your opinion also if you wouldn't mind. You sent me some inspiring pm's on the "other site" which helped me to decide to join this site, and I appreciate them.(obviously I used a different log on name--pm if curious) No looking back since, thanks again. Specifically, you had mentioned that you mostly looked for,or encountered, S40 shoes. Would you have looked at a portion of this shoe if you saw it and would you have played it? Or would you have passed? Why?

Oh, Kachatz do you follow the NOR money management, OTR, etc?

Thank you to all responders.

Dave

Hmmm, beginers have favorites. Pros play whatever the shoe tells them.

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Hmmm, beginers have favorites. Pros play whatever the shoe tells them.

Hello Ellis,

Yes, exactly the thesis of my question. I may not have captured my true intent. The NOR manual states that there are very few long streaky shoes nowadays. I actually see this now and try to target tote boards that are very easy to beat and high in 1's and 2's.(not to say that a beautifully streaky board wouldn't stop me in my tracks) It also states that a player need only switch approaches mid shoe in a very low percent of the time. So, I was trying to understand if my initial approach to the posted shoe was far off base. When I first looked at the shoe I saw mostly 1's and 2's with a clump of 3's and TT's in the middle. I figured a good approach might have been to play S40. Now, I see that there was a very high bias toward OTBL nearing the middle but I didn't pick up on it initially. I know the results for Kachatz were great, but I didn't know the specifics of when he decided it was a good OTB$L method shoe or when he jumped in.

Thank you sir!!

Dave

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Hmmm, beginers have favorites. Pros play whatever the shoe tells them.

Hello Ellis,

Yes, exactly the thesis of my question. I may not have captured my true intent. The NOR manual states that there are very few long streaky shoes nowadays. I actually see this now and try to target tote boards that are very easy to beat and high in 1's and 2's.(not to say that a beautifully streaky board wouldn't stop me in my tracks) It also states that a player need only switch approaches mid shoe in a very low percent of the time. So, I was trying to understand if my initial approach to the posted shoe was far off base. When I first looked at the shoe I saw mostly 1's and 2's with a clump of 3's and TT's in the middle. I figured a good approach might have been to play S40. Now, I see that there was a very high bias toward OTBL nearing the middle but I didn't pick up on it initially. I know the results for Kachatz were great, but I didn't know the specifics of when he decided it was a good OTB$L method shoe or when he jumped in.

Thank you sir!!

Dave

Right, beginners tend to miss OTB4L at first because they are used to thinking in terms of only streak or chop as most players do. But, today it is often the most common shoe type because it is the type casinos strive for. This is because nobody but us knows how to play OTB4L shoes. When in doubt I usually start with OTB4L because about the only thing it loses to is 8 or mores straight or ZZ and we see so few of those. I often play OTB4L U1D2 because it very rarely loses. I often get 20 wins in a row, esp against new cards and +20 is very common in 30 - 35 plays.

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Right, beginners tend to miss OTB4L at first because they are used to thinking in terms of only streak or chop as most players do. But, today it is often the most common shoe type because it is the type casinos strive for. This is because nobody but us knows how to play OTB4L shoes. When in doubt I usually start with OTB4L because about the only thing it loses to is 8 or mores straight or ZZ and we see so few of those. I often play OTB4L U1D2 because it very rarely loses. I often get 20 wins in a row, esp against new cards and +20 is very common in 30 - 35 plays.

All,

For you newer guys here, this is not something new that Ellis has just come up with.

He has always stated that OTB4L is a valid play and has the history to back it up.

Also, when you are on an "OTB4L table" and you're winning with it, you will most probably be the only one wagering that way!

MVS

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All,

For you newer guys here, this is not something new that Ellis has just come up with.

He has always stated that OTB4L is a valid play and has the history to back it up.

Also, when you are on an "OTB4L table" and you're winning with it, you will most probably be the only one wagering that way!

MVS

Right, for instance, I won nearly every shoe for 3 years playing OTB4L against new cards early in the mornings at Gold Strike, Tunica. I averaged about +18 over 3 years while no one else could even win a shoe. This is very common with OTB4L. It was the talk of the casino on both sides of the table. I'd sit down to a table and the dealer would say: "So you're the one!"

It was incredibly easy. I bet U1D2 for green and was usually the lowest bettor at the table. Averaged about $450 per shoe after commission. Only played about ten shoes per week. They stopped comping my room but there is a nicer place to stay right down the street complete with swimming pool and free breakfast and a senior's discount. The casino still comped all my meals and all the wine I could drink - which was considerable.

OTB4L is incredibly simple. Your biggest problem is to keep from falling asleep.

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Right, for instance, I won nearly every shoe for 3 years playing OTB4L against new cards early in the mornings at Gold Strike, Tunica. I averaged about +18 over 3 years while no one else could even win a shoe. This is very common with OTB4L. It was the talk of the casino on both sides of the table. I'd sit down to a table and the dealer would say: "So you're the one!"

It was incredibly easy. I bet U1D2 for green and was usually the lowest bettor at the table. Averaged about $450 per shoe after commission. Only played about ten shoes per week. They stopped comping my room but there is a nicer place to stay right down the street complete with swimming pool and free breakfast and a senior's discount. The casino still comped all my meals and all the wine I could drink - which was considerable.

OTB4L is incredibly simple. Your biggest problem is to keep from falling asleep.

I just wanted to jump in a say that out of everything I’ve learned on this forum including baccarat and blackjack (although I’m not as experienced with BJ yet). I have to say OBT4L is the best piece of information for me personally. I usually only play those shoes. I will play S40 also for chop sometimes. I think F is cool, but I don’t do very well with F so I don't play streaky shoes... I have trouble with the mode changes from weak to strong side.

It’s pretty hard to lose I can attest that in a strong OBT4L shoe you will often be the only one winning. The only time I ever lose in OBT4L is when straight run and ZZ run modes change following each other back to back. It sucks when that happens, but fortunately that doesn’t happen a lot. When that happens usually the other players win haha - they ALL play TB4L no matter what.

Sometimes I notice that TB4L would win in some shoes. I simply don’t play them because its not part of NOR which tries to avoid shoes that are choppy then streaky. Hmm maybe F would be good in those shoes.

Ellis, do you ever recommend playing TB4L if the shoe looks good for it? Or just find better tables for NOR?

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Once in a blue moon. The thing is a good TB4L shoe is usually an even better F shoe. Such streaky shoes are often loaded with sporadic 1's. F loves them! TB4L doesn't.

All casinos strive for OTB4L shoes and they strive to avoid runs both straight and ZZ because that is the ONLY thing they lose on. But some casinos do this better than others. Any runless shoe is a good OTB4L shoe. So OTB4L is a good way to beat the casino at their own game.

When you think about it, all our methods, whether Bac or BJ, are designed to do just that - beat the casino at their own game - take advantage of their shuffle orchestration. The more they cheat, the better we do. Of course, THEY don't call it cheating. But what else can you call shuffle manipulation???

Anyone who was around in the early '90s to see the very frequent 20+ in a rows, sometimes 2 in the same shoe, and then watch them disappear completely from every casino, understands shuffle manipulation first hand.

Many say that casinos would never cheat. But note that it is always guys with virtually no casino experience.

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Just to add to the OTBL conversation. I was at horseshoe in Chicago yesterday afternoon and I swear all 6 tables were OTBL with maybe 1 table F2. Made my quick 10 units and left. I have noticed more OTBL lately. I usually look for S40 tables.

Right! Bac players tend to be evening and late night players. On a weekday afternoon you are likely to be playing new or relatively new cards. In the card prep which was likely before you got there, through shared shuffle technology, the casinos are going to strive for OTB4L because that shoe type gives the casinos their highest win rate.

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