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Seriously considering purchasing NOR


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Hello to all,

My brother and I have been playing mini-bac on and off for about 6 years now. We have had our trials and tribulations but more trials :(.

He lives in Virginia and visits the "Hollywood" casino in Charlestown. I live in CT and have both Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun within 15 minutes of me. I have played the $10 table at Foxwoods but find it very inconsistent. We are both contractors and have been subject to this tough economy and the lulls in between jobs. We would like to make baccarat work and pay us consistently. We do meet in Atlantic City (which is a half way point between CT & VA) but don't seem to have much success playing together. We have spent lots of time reading these blog posts and would appreciate any advise from the members of this forum.

Thanks, Ed G.

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I am also considering purchasing the NOR System. I have read the forums and watched the videos. I think you guys have a really good thing going here. If someone could tell me exactly what I get for my $600 I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!!!

I'm relatively new here, so all I can offer is my experiences and thoughts so far.

At first glance...you might be a little disappointed in the size of the NOR manual...Don't be...The information crammed into it is mind blowing...and is only the beginning.

You then have access to the "Private" Baccarat Forum which is in itself worth far more than the cost of the manual. Pretty much all the questions you could possibly ask have already been asked and then answered by the experts.(you really need to spend some serious time browsing the Threads)

Any questions that I've asked have been promptly answered by Ellis ...who has maybe had his patience stretched coz I take a little longer than some to absorb detail. (I'm old...you gotta make allowances)

Ellis is also available by phone if you need clarification on something...(I haven't had the need myself yet)

As for me...NOR is working out far better than I dared hope...I'm not betting big dollars yet because I am conservative by nature ...especially while learning....but NOR makes full allowance for the less daring like me.

My record so far is 42 shoes played...6 losing shoes with losses averaging 6.5 units...36 winning shoes averaging a little over 18 units.

This ratio might take a turn for the worse...or it might even get better ...but no matter...there is plenty of room to move.

But I do know this...I managed to turn "losing at Baccarat" into an art form until I downloaded NOR.

Is it a scam?...TBH... I half expected it to be...but was prepared to run the risk ($600 is not a lot of money for something that may change your life)

My opinion now?...No way in the world are these guys scammers...There are too many experienced Baccarat players on here only too willing to give advice for it to possibly be a scam. The amount of money gained would be miniscule for the amount of effort required.

Why does Ellis do it?...Why does he put so much effort into passing on his years of accumulated research?

He is wealthy...doesn't need the money.

My own theory is that he gets his jollies from passing on his knowledge and seeing each of his pupils put his teachings to good use.

I mean...This is life changing stuff.

I figure that he wants to leave a legacy.

I guess, what I'm trying to say is that I'm convinced...I believe in the old bastard.

Good luck with your decision...I hope that I've helped a little

Oz

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I am also considering purchasing the NOR System. I have read the forums and watched the videos. I think you guys have a really good thing going here. If someone could tell me exactly what I get for my $600 I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!!!

First you get the NOR manual. The manual is detailed and all inclusive. Some, that is all they want or need. But you also get full membership to the private NOR forum and nearly all take advantage of that. You can talk to the other students, even arrange to play with them; get your questions answered in detail, learn many tricks of the trade; and be part of a serious like-minded group; rub elbows with the only consistent winning players in the world. See exactly how they played their shoes.

Keith just posted one yesterday, his first time ever in this Philidelphia casino, $60 table min. He was out of there in 30 minutes with +17 units.

Or check out the ImSpirit blog, the thread "Dave and Ellis take on Atlantic City".

I played six shoes at two different casinos at 4 different tables and won all 6 to the tune of a 26% Player Advantage (ROI) units won/units bet.

Dave recorded every play in every shoe and even bet right along with me and made $1500.

Dave doesn't realize it but that may have been a world record for 6 shoes in a row. Most players never hit 26% PA in ONE shoe let alone six in a row. But I played exactly to the letter of what I teach you in the NOR manual and on the BTC NOR forum.

THAT is exactly what you get plus comradery and friendship. There is no such thing as a dumb question on my forum and unlike most forums you'll never hear a cross word spoken. We are all there for the same reason.

$600 may sound like a lot to you but it is less than the average world wide Bac player loses every day he plays. I'm trying to fix that.

Look, you can waste your money trying everything else as many of my NOR students did. But eventually you'll come to the same conclusion they did. NOR is the ONLY way to consistently beat this game. I have the winning students to prove it. Nobody else does. I played this game successfully as a full time professional for many years. I teach you to play exactly how I play. And we don't take risks. We are usually the lowest bettors at the table yet the biggest winners. In the 6 shoes Dave copied me, my highest bet was a single 4 bet and my average bet was less than 2 units. NOBODY else can do that except my students. Hope to see you soon! I'm getting to old to do this much longer.

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Ed Goldstien?

Ed Goldstein was one of the worst dressed BJ players of all time. But also one of the best NBJ players of all time. Don't let his clothes fool you. He used to drive me around Nevada and Arizona in his Rolls Royce!

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That's funny - You don't look Indian.

That comes from one of the funiest things ever on TV - certainly the funniest thing on the old Johnny Carson show.

He had this tomahawk thrower on. They had this lifesize target - the silhouette of a man!

He throws his first tomahawk - with a resounding thud, it hits the target squarely in the crotch!

After the hoots and hollers and laughter finally died down - which took half the show.

Johnny said:

"That's funny - you don't LOOK Jewish."

Seriously Ed, you two brothers need to get NOR and join the NOR private forum and learn how to play. There is a gold mine in AC. Maybe you could talk Keith into a 2 for 1 deal!

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I'm relatively new here, so all I can offer is my experiences and thoughts so far.

At first glance...you might be a little disappointed in the size of the NOR manual...Don't be...The information crammed into it is mind blowing...and is only the beginning.

You then have access to the "Private" Baccarat Forum which is in itself worth far more than the cost of the manual. Pretty much all the questions you could possibly ask have already been asked and then answered by the experts.(you really need to spend some serious time browsing the Threads)

Any questions that I've asked have been promptly answered by Ellis ...who has maybe had his patience stretched coz I take a little longer than some to absorb detail. (I'm old...you gotta make allowances)

Ellis is also available by phone if you need clarification on something...(I haven't had the need myself yet)

As for me...NOR is working out far better than I dared hope...I'm not betting big dollars yet because I am conservative by nature ...especially while learning....but NOR makes full allowance for the less daring like me.

My record so far is 42 shoes played...6 losing shoes with losses averaging 6.5 units...36 winning shoes averaging a little over 18 units.

This ratio might take a turn for the worse...or it might even get better ...but no matter...there is plenty of room to move.

But I do know this...I managed to turn "losing at Baccarat" into an art form until I downloaded NOR.

Is it a scam?...TBH... I half expected it to be...but was prepared to run the risk ($600 is not a lot of money for something that may change your life)

My opinion now?...No way in the world are these guys scammers...There are too many experienced Baccarat players on here only too willing to give advice for it to possibly be a scam. The amount of money gained would be miniscule for the amount of effort required.

Why does Ellis do it?...Why does he put so much effort into passing on his years of accumulated research?

He is wealthy...doesn't need the money.

My own theory is that he gets his jollies from passing on his knowledge and seeing each of his pupils put his teachings to good use.

I mean...This is life changing stuff.

I figure that he wants to leave a legacy.

I guess, what I'm trying to say is that I'm convinced...I believe in the old bastard.

Good luck with your decision...I hope that I've helped a little

Oz

I'll be famous a hundred years after I die!

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  • Baccarat Hall of Fame Member
Hello to all,

My brother and I have been playing mini-bac on and off for about 6 years now. We have had our trials and tribulations but more trials :(.

He lives in Virginia and visits the "Hollywood" casino in Charlestown. I live in CT and have both Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun within 15 minutes of me. I have played the $10 table at Foxwoods but find it very inconsistent. We are both contractors and have been subject to this tough economy and the lulls in between jobs. We would like to make baccarat work and pay us consistently. We do meet in Atlantic City (which is a half way point between CT & VA) but don't seem to have much success playing together. We have spent lots of time reading these blog posts and would appreciate any advise from the members of this forum.

Thanks, Ed G.

Hey, Ed-

Been playing for almost 20 years, and look at it this way:

If one of your customers need their leaking roof fixed, and you told them it would be $600.00, they would likely first look at the weather report to determine when the next rainstorm would hit. They would quickly determine that $600 is far better than a FULL HOUSE ( full of water, that is)

Meanwhile, your brother takes one of your work vehicles to the shop, and they tell him $600.00 for repairs, he likely would quickly ( albeit reluctantly) agree NO TRUCKEE, NO WORKEE and get the repair done.

That's the value in learning to play properly with NOR...stop the bleeding today, by getting the proper medical care, or bleed a slow and painful death to your bankroll.

I wish you all the luck in the world!

kachatz1

PJRanger-- this goes for you too!

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Hi Ellis,

Thanks for reaching out and replying. I have seen NOR+ mentioned on the forum, does that come as part of the $600 package? I also would be very interested in your advice on the best ways to beat the Indians and take some of their wampum. I appreciate the work that goes into passing on your knowledge to your students. Looking forward to your response with some words of wisdom :). Ed

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I'm relatively new here, so all I can offer is my experiences and thoughts so far.

At first glance...you might be a little disappointed in the size of the NOR manual...Don't be...The information crammed into it is mind blowing...and is only the beginning.

You then have access to the "Private" Baccarat Forum which is in itself worth far more than the cost of the manual. Pretty much all the questions you could possibly ask have already been asked and then answered by the experts.(you really need to spend some serious time browsing the Threads)

Any questions that I've asked have been promptly answered by Ellis ...who has maybe had his patience stretched coz I take a little longer than some to absorb detail. (I'm old...you gotta make allowances)

Ellis is also available by phone if you need clarification on something...(I haven't had the need myself yet)

As for me...NOR is working out far better than I dared hope...I'm not betting big dollars yet because I am conservative by nature ...especially while learning....but NOR makes full allowance for the less daring like me.

My record so far is 42 shoes played...6 losing shoes with losses averaging 6.5 units...36 winning shoes averaging a little over 18 units.

This ratio might take a turn for the worse...or it might even get better ...but no matter...there is plenty of room to move.

But I do know this...I managed to turn "losing at Baccarat" into an art form until I downloaded NOR.

Is it a scam?...TBH... I half expected it to be...but was prepared to run the risk ($600 is not a lot of money for something that may change your life)

My opinion now?...No way in the world are these guys scammers...There are too many experienced Baccarat players on here only too willing to give advice for it to possibly be a scam. The amount of money gained would be miniscule for the amount of effort required.

Why does Ellis do it?...Why does he put so much effort into passing on his years of accumulated research?

He is wealthy...doesn't need the money.

My own theory is that he gets his jollies from passing on his knowledge and seeing each of his pupils put his teachings to good use.

I mean...This is life changing stuff.

I figure that he wants to leave a legacy.

I guess, what I'm trying to say is that I'm convinced...I believe in the old bastard.

Good luck with your decision...I hope that I've helped a little

Oz

Hi Oz, What size are your base bet units?

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Thanks Kachatz,

I totally understand and agree with your logic. It seems that in the public forum that people really want to help. How is NOR working for you so far?

This looks like a good place to inject this post from the private Bac forum this morning to give you guys an idea of the kinds of things we discuss on the private Bac forum. This thread was prompted by the fact that one of our experienced Bac players walked out of the new Philadelphia casino $1000 richer earlier this week within a half hour of walking into the casino.

"Re: SugarLand Casino

Originally Posted by CarlosM

You would have won 22 units I think! An extra 5 units.

Ellis says: Actually only an extra 3 units. But he made the correct play at #8 from a SAP standpoint. The weighted average for 2s was 2 and for 3s was 3. So you could expect the 2iar to go to 3 but for me at least it was too close a call to deviate from OTB4L so soon. But Keith is a stickler for SAP.

I'm still betting everyone else at the table lost because they have no idea how to play OTB4L shoes which are pretty much the name of the game these days. And, of course, they have no idea how to play SAP either.

Most, at best, only know how to play opposites or repeats which would have put then at +1 at best at play 8 rather than +8. The most common system, TB4L, would have lost every bet in the shoe at that point except play 5. They would have to wait for play 14 to win their second bet of the shoe. If they were dumb enough to still be playing.

NOR players will soon note that casinos rank them as the best players on the floor. Shoes like this show you why.

We tend to compare ourselves with each other instead of the other players. We forget that the average player loses to the tune of 26% of his buy in money. Half of them do WORSE than that.

But we can thank them that casinos still deal Baccarat. If everyone played NOR, the casinos would have stopped dealing Baccarat a long time ago."

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Hi Oz, What size are your base bet units?

When you think about it, it makes no difference. That is why we talk in terms of units rather than $. The cards don't know the color of your chips. A 123 prog is a 123 regardless if your unit is $1 or $1000.

You might ask instead: What unit size would I need to play full time to make a respectable living? Answer: $25.

Oz is averaging around +15 units a shoe but a reasonable average is more like +8. $200 a shoe at only 5 shoes a day is a repectable living by virtually any standard. So, $25 units is really all you need to play full time.

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I can't wait for my tax refund. When it gets here I am going to purchase NOR. I have been studying all of the forum post and watch your videos daily to prepare myself. I have also found a lot of information from Imspirit web site that you mention. I'm tired of losing. I want to be able to win consistently. I am glad you mentioned UNITS rather than money. I heard you say on a video that hand shuffled, new cards every shoe is the way to play. This game is usually only found at Big Bac tables. These games are usually $100 or black chip games. How much money should I have in reserve to take on this game. How much should I buy in for. Thanks for all of your guys hard work for allowing people like me to learn a style of play that is actually used by the people that sell it. Thank you for putting this information out there to be found.

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I can't wait for my tax refund. When it gets here I am going to purchase NOR. I have been studying all of the forum post and watch your videos daily to prepare myself. I have also found a lot of information from Imspirit web site that you mention. I'm tired of losing. I want to be able to win consistently. I am glad you mentioned UNITS rather than money. I heard you say on a video that hand shuffled, new cards every shoe is the way to play. This game is usually only found at Big Bac tables. These games are usually $100 or black chip games. How much money should I have in reserve to take on this game. How much should I buy in for. Thanks for all of your guys hard work for allowing people like me to learn a style of play that is actually used by the people that sell it. Thank you for putting this information out there to be found.

Wow! You really make my day p.ranger! Just when I was concluding that ImSpirit was a complete waste of my time I now find I had all these readers silently rooting for me but afraid to post. And I don't blame them! Not with the knuckleheads on that blog who don't recognize proof when it falls on their head and are going to poopoo anything you say no matter what you say. So I take their leader Virtuoid to Atlantic City and score a 26% PA over 6 shoes and he himself doesn't even realize that what I am showing him is world class play. I doubt that 6 shoe record will ever be duplicated by anyone, ever! What the hell more can I do?!?!

Virtuoid, with his two weeks of gambling experience, thinks he knows everything about it. He doesn't grasp the fact that the cards are NOT random. If they were, I couldn't possibly have done what I did.

Lee Evans is a perfect example of how NOT to play! And I think even he is beginning to grasp that fact. So OK, he is $20,000 ahead at the moment but that is COMMON for guys who bet 20 bet progressions. LOOK, for crying out loud! He buys in for $15,000 and plays DIMES and puts the whole $15,000 at risk every shoe he plays betting Bank ONLY and paying huge commissions. Even Virtuoid recognized that is crazy. It is just a question of time before he gets a few Player shoes in a row and gets completely wiped out! I hope he comes to his senses before that!

Enough about ImSpirit. I'll never post there again unless Virtuoid apologizes and invites me to post. Just because playing on his own for two weeks he lost, he is out to prove that winning is impossible. Even after watching me win! I don't care how good a mathematician he thinks he is, if you start out with a false assumption that the cards are random, the rest of your logic doesn't mean dittllysquat! He is a perfect example of "shit in - shit out". He probably lost the whole $1500 I won for him.

Which brings me to YOU p.ranger. I don't want you making the same mistake Virtuoid made.

FIRST, read my article on Risk Of Ruin!

Second, stay out of casinos until you know what you are doing!

You need to know WHERE to play, WHEN to play, HOW to play and WHY you are playing that way. You need to avoid risk of ruin like the plague! ESPECIALLY when you are first starting out. EVERY player here will tell you that. Don't go off half baked like Maverick did. Take one of these guys with you that can keep you under control. You have not learned discipline yet. Take somebody who HAS.

When I make my trips to the casinos my FIRST overwhelming priority is to win my first shoe. I want to be playing on THEIR money as soon as possible. Therefore I don't sit down until I have found a shoe I KNOW I can beat. There are ways to do that, that we teach right here. That is the exact opposite to what the other players do. They take the first open seat they find. They are doomed to failure before they even start playing. You need to find a VERY biased shoe, perhaps like the one Keith just posted. Biased shoes are out there but you have to know how to find them. THAT is how you win at Baccarat!

So OK, you have the enthusiasm, you have the attitude. But you don't yet have the discipline or control. Make a deal with yourself: Tell yourself that you won't play until you know exactly what you are doing. A lot of guys here WISH they had done that. But the guys who did usually pay for their membership on their first outing. BE one of those guys!

GUYS, am I right or what?

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You'll get no arguments from me on that one Ellis.

Best investment I ever made or am ever likely too.

BTW: An update on my progress...I am currently averaging 10.8 units won from all shoes played...and yes...that does take into account all losing shoes as well. I expect this to reduce some...but at that rate I sure have plenty of room to move.

I'm playing very conservatively keeping an eagle eye on that STOP/LOSS figure and I seem to have fine tuned a method of play that suits my lack of gumption but still gives me a chance to clean up on those really good shoes.

I'm using a movable stop/loss which seems to be going great guns

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That's my plan. Study your methods until I have them down pat. I have learned how to keep a SAP count, the basics of S40, the +/- running count of opposites and repeats, I understand OTB4L, but when to implement it and how long to stick with it is a little tricky. I have not been able to find anything about how to play streaks but the label of F2 and F3 seem to indicate a betting indicator of 2 or 3 in a row for shoes biased for streaking. Mentions of strong sided play is usually coupled with streaking methods. I have 25 complete shoe records from my trips to the casino last year. I keep old shoe records for practice. I have applied my limited knowledge of your methods and strategies and am very excited to purchase NOR. My tax refund didn't come today. I guess it will be next Friday before I can purchase NOR, IRS only pays out refunds on Fridays. I can't wait. Good Luck to everyone. Ellis hope you stay in good health. I would really like to win enough the first couple of times I play NOR to attend the April seminar.

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That's my plan. Study your methods until I have them down pat. I have learned how to keep a SAP count, the basics of S40, the +/- running count of opposites and repeats, I understand OTB4L, but when to implement it and how long to stick with it is a little tricky. I have not been able to find anything about how to play streaks but the label of F2 and F3 seem to indicate a betting indicator of 2 or 3 in a row for shoes biased for streaking. Mentions of strong sided play is usually coupled with streaking methods. I have 25 complete shoe records from my trips to the casino last year. I keep old shoe records for practice. I have applied my limited knowledge of your methods and strategies and am very excited to purchase NOR. My tax refund didn't come today. I guess it will be next Friday before I can purchase NOR, IRS only pays out refunds on Fridays. I can't wait. Good Luck to everyone. Ellis hope you stay in good health. I would really like to win enough the first couple of times I play NOR to attend the April seminar.

My ambition is slightly higher than yours...I want to win enough to be invited as guest speaker...lol

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My ambition is slightly higher than yours...I want to win enough to be invited as guest speaker...lol

Seminars are a great source of learning. We can have conversations and get questions answered that just don't come up on the forum. I get to show you play by plays that really click. The forum is just not a good venue for that. Nothing like seeing it first hand, in person.

In the April seminar I want to show you the logic behind NOR+. Everyone needs to learn NOR+. It is the future. It accomodates virtually everything that can happen in a shoe. I think this will be the most important seminar ever and I have done hundreds.

Right bloak, I'd love to have you as a guest speaker!

But first, we need more attendees! Where are all you guys who said you'd go if we had the seminar in Vegas?????

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Hi Ellis, Keith,

I have spoken to some, and u know people wait to last days, or just show up and pay at door.

I will be there, and will try to ask my BTC playing colleagues to attend also.

Key point: for baccarat players, the explanations for NOR+, M1 vs M3, and coupled w U1D2 betting, my own live games have shown it works well! Any serious gamer should not.miss in depth talks on M3!

Look fwd c fellow BTC players there at the NOR+ workshop!

Regards,

Daytrader77459

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Hi Ellis, Keith,

I have spoken to some, and u know people wait to last days, or just show up and pay at door.

I will be there, and will try to ask my BTC playing colleagues to attend also.

Key point: for baccarat players, the explanations for NOR+, M1 vs M3, and coupled w U1D2 betting, my own live games have shown it works well! Any serious gamer should not.miss in depth talks on M3!

Look fwd c fellow BTC players there at the NOR+ workshop!

Regards,

Daytrader77459

Thanks Randi!

Right, Modes take understanding and knowledge.

M3 wins more events but M2 is better on runs. But you can get "wrong footed" every time with NOR. Not good.

Therefore NOR+ eliminates M2 so the wrong footed problem is avoided. Then M1 gets on runs one play sooner making it TWICE as effective on runs. That gives you a higher hit rate which supports U1D2 and takes most of the risk out of it.

The more you study this game the more you realize that everything is related and relative to everything else.

Plain NOR can't quite support the aggressive U1D2 betting strategy. BUT NOR+ thrives on it. Now the question becomes when to deploy U1D1??? All you need to support an U1D1 is a 50% hit rate or better. Ha, your average hit rate just flipping a coin is 50%. THEN we apply skill on top of that.

We are so far ahead of the rest of the Baccarat world that we are totally in a league of our own. They are still on horseback watching us go by in race cars. Yet we are still betting far less than they are but winning more.

They are back in the card counter's 1/2% PA world. They have no idea that a 20% PA world even exists. They are still stuck back on the 1/2% Bank advantage. We blew through that world 20 years ago.

They create the 26% worldwide casino profits in a 50/50 game!

WE are the casino's worst nightmare.

Most of you guys can remember back when YOU used to lose at the rate of 26%.

We've come a long, long way. And nobody, including the casinos, has any idea of how we just keep doing it!

If you aren't at a 20% PA yet - Go to the seminar!

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