Hi Everyone! New member from Sydney here

[derkyft]

Hi all,

Another bloke from down under has decided to make the investment into NOR baccarat! (can't wait for NOR Roulette as well)

Just wanted to say Hi to everyone as you all are so friendly and helpful. Especially to Oz, who has been giving me heaps of pointers in private messages... so to me he is like a teacher and father.

He has given me so many tips and his personal play styles that I already feel like I've made my subscription money back. I want to take this post to thank him for his help so far and I will be bugging you much more in the future! Can't wait for a group trip to the Casino! But for now I think I will get my basics down first. It's my first day so getting used to all this jargon and conditional methods is quite a headache.

Just out of curiosity as well, what do you guys do with your winnings? Do you reinvest it into bigger bet units, spend it on yourself or stash it up?

Anyways, glad to be part of the family and my thanks in advance for any advice/teachings that I will receive from all of you.

Peace!

D

[ECD]

Hi all,

Another bloke from down under has decided to make the investment into NOR baccarat! (can't wait for NOR Roulette as well)

Just wanted to say Hi to everyone as you all are so friendly and helpful. Especially to Oz, who has been giving me heaps of pointers in private messages... so to me he is like a teacher and father.

He has given me so many tips and his personal play styles that I already feel like I've made my subscription money back. I want to take this post to thank him for his help so far and I will be bugging you much more in the future! Can't wait for a group trip to the Casino! But for now I think I will get my basics down first. It's my first day so getting used to all this jargon and conditional methods is quite a headache.

Just out of curiosity as well, what do you guys do with your winnings? Do you reinvest it into bigger bet units, spend it on yourself or stash it up?

Anyways, glad to be part of the family and my thanks in advance for any advice/teachings that I will receive from all of you.

Peace!

D

Why do I suddenly feel so old?

Seriously...Congrats on biting the bullet.

Welcome to the Forum and I'm certain that your stay will be happy and profitable.

Looking forward to meeting up sometime soon and playing together.

It will be a welcome change to discuss what we have been taught as Ellis is on the money when he says "Nothing cleans a room out quicker than conversations about gambling"

Oz

[derkyft]

Oz! I just put all the stuff you taught me to play. I do feel a bit of pressure when the dealer sees you winning and they start to deal faster than I can put my bet down. Lucky Ellis' trick for otb4l helped! Bet opposite when repeated and repeat when opposite! I saw a table starting with B4222 so I sat down and started playing otb4l mode 3..

The shoe was

B42222113111221242121212311332132

the OR count didn't move much so I could bet with confidence.. although I started at play 11 and started getting scared because of the Zzz but I held in there and came out with 16units!

I'm so happy I'm outside the casino holding my score cards and poking it into my phone haha

Can't wait till we beat the Aussie casinos together!

D

[ECD]

Oz! I just put all the stuff you taught me to play. I do feel a bit of pressure when the dealer sees you winning and they start to deal faster than I can put my bet down. Lucky Ellis' trick for otb4l helped! Bet opposite when repeated and repeat when opposite! I saw a table starting with B4222 so I sat down and started playing otb4l mode 3..

The shoe was

B42222113111221242121212311332132

the OR count didn't move much so I could bet with confidence.. although I started at play 11 and started getting scared because of the Zzz but I held in there and came out with 16units!

I'm so happy I'm outside the casino holding my score cards and poking it into my phone haha

Can't wait till we beat the Aussie casinos together!

D

Congrats...Nobody can argue with a win of 16 units.

BTW: The tips I gave you are just a summary of Ellis's NOR+ Thread

You were effectively playing NOR+ OTB4L with it's third bet rule

You certainly don't muck around...You download your manual one day and the next day you are in the Casino testing it out...Fortune favors the brave methinks

Again...well done

I haven't struck the prob of dealers trying to force the pace with my betting...Perhaps Ellis or one of the other Pros might enlighten you on the best way to handle that situation.

[Guest]

Congrats...Nobody can argue with a win of 16 units.

BTW: The tips I gave you are just a summary of Ellis's NOR+ Thread

You were effectively playing NOR+ OTB4L with it's third bet rule

You certainly don't muck around...You download your manual one day and the next day you are in the Casino testing it out...Fortune favors the brave methinks

Again...well done

I haven't struck the prob of dealers trying to force the pace with my betting...Perhaps Ellis or one of the other Pros might enlighten you on the best way to handle that situation.

Right, very good job for a beginner D.

Tip: If you leave your hand on your bet the dealer can't deal until you remove your hand. This is also telling her to slow down. But after a few weeks you'll be thinking she's too slow!

[MVSeahog]

The shoe was

B42222113111221242121212311332132

the OR count didn't move much so I could bet with confidence.. although I started at play 11 and started getting scared because of the Zzz but I held in there and came out with 16units!

I'm so happy I'm outside the casino holding my score cards and poking it into my phone haha

Can't wait till we beat the Aussie casinos together!

D

Just for consistency on the forum, here's the correct transcription of your shoe.

Nicely done, by the way.

MVS

B42222113111

P22124212121

B2311332131

P1

[ChiefAurelius]

Hi all,

Another new member currently located in the land of Oz.

It's encouraging to see that there's an Australian thread here.

Looking forward to learning from the masters.

Best luck and Best wishes,

ChiefAurelius

[ECD]

Hi all,

Another new member currently located in the land of Oz.

It's encouraging to see that there's an Australian thread here.

Looking forward to learning from the masters.

Best luck and Best wishes,

ChiefAurelius

Gidday mate

Welcome aboard...Good to see another Aussie.

The most certain bet you ever make is that you won't regret joining up.

The advice of Ellis and the other Pros on here has the potential to change your life forever.

We have guys on BTC from Melbourne and Sydney...Where are you from?

Oz

[ChiefAurelius]

Sydney based, although I shuttle around a bit.

I'm just plowing through the manual at the moment, but I'm sure to have a million and a half questions.

A very dear friend has been playing bacc for thirty years and brought me in on his system. After about a year, I could see holes in it, so I started looking for extra info and ...voila, here I am.

Is there a better way to go through the info on the boards? I'd be keen to catch up one weekend once I've digested all the material (I'm a bit of an information fiend, and like to understand an area as thoroughly as possible first).

Anyway great to meet you Oz. Thanks for the welcome.

Chief

[ECD]

Sydney based, although I shuttle around a bit.

I'm just plowing through the manual at the moment, but I'm sure to have a million and a half questions.

A very dear friend has been playing bacc for thirty years and brought me in on his system. After about a year, I could see holes in it, so I started looking for extra info and ...voila, here I am.

Is there a better way to go through the info on the boards? I'd be keen to catch up one weekend once I've digested all the material (I'm a bit of an information fiend, and like to understand an area as thoroughly as possible first).

Anyway great to meet you Oz. Thanks for the welcome.

Chief

OK...My first suggestion is to read through your manual .. then have a break...and read it again highlighting the parts that you feel are important...and also the parts that you aren't quite sure of.

Then download the Baccarat Bootcamp Manual and give that a read as well...sometimes a different explanation of the same thing helps a bit in getting a clearer picture

Then...have a read of the NOR+ Thread paying particular attention to the "Third Bet" rule and it's relationship to changing Modes and also the U1D2 betting strategy.

Then have read of Ellis's replies in relation the F2 and F3 in this thread http://www.beatthecasino.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7413 which helps with the understanding of F rather brilliantly I think. (After playing a few shoes using this info from Ellis... it was all I could do not to go looking for F shoes only) LOL F is pretty much as Ellis calls it..."BACCARAT FOR DUMMIES" ...which suits me down to the ground...The biggest danger playing F for old folks like me is trying to stay awake...It really is that easy

Oz

And if you want a few things made clearer...I am currently summarising Ellis's NOR+ approach and will gladly PM it to you

[Guest]

H1 Chief and welcome to the board! Everthing is a little confusing at first but you'll soon get past that. Stick to the NOR and NOR+ threads for now.

[ChiefAurelius]

Thanks to you both!

That's a major help as a guidepost through the immense amount of material I've already gotten lost in.

I'm nearly finished the manual and will follow your tips in hopes that it starts to take shape.

I really appreciate the assistance.

Hope you're both having outstanding weeks!

Cheers

Chief

[derkyft]

Welcome Chief! Glad to see another Sydney sider.

I've just finished the 55 pages from the NOR+ thread and if you'd like we can discuss what we absorbed from it so it can speed up our learning.

Also MVS, thanks for showing me the correct format to lay out shoes.

So from what I've gathered from the NOR+ thread (off the top of my head, to see how much I can remember) is that:

1. Most shoes can be handled by OTB4L M3. However, this does not mean you should not apply other methods when the shoe obviously favours something else. (e.g playing F on SS shoes)

2. Changing modes seem to be the trickiest part for most people. Starting with Mode 3, if you lose your third bet (not necessarily the 3unit bet), you should change to mode 2 AFTER the current run. For example, you lose your first, second and third bet, your fourth bet would be OTR and regardless of whether it wins or not, you resume your play (OTB4L). However, since your third bet lost, you are now in mode 2. Mode 2 meaning that after losing two consecutive bets, you bet OTR up to two times. If the first OTR bet wins, bet OTR again. If it loses, change back to OTB4L. Losing your first OTR bet in Mode 2 would mean that you are in the wrong mode, so it's time to switch back to Mode 3.

2-1)Mode 1 is somewhat of an advanced move where you jump to OTR after losing 1 bet. In Nor+, we track the number of occurrences of specific events. For example, if you see a 4iar, note it down. 6iar? Note it down. This is a rough indication on which event is most likely to occur from the information the shoe has given us. If you've tracked 3iar occurring once, but 5iar occurring 4 times, if you lose an OTB4L bet due to a 3iar, you would jump OTR and shoot for a 5iar.

Once the run breaks, switch back to OTB4L.

You should also note that when tracking these events, you will be tracking ZZ runs and ST runs. If you lose your first bet in your bet progression, jump OTR and aim for the event which occurred most (ZZ 4 times happened most? Aim for that the next time you lose a bet to the start of a ZZ. 5iar happened most? Bet that it'll happen again once you lose a bet to the start of a ST run). If you lose any bet OTR, revert back to Mode 3. Mode 1 should only be used once the player is fully comfortable switching between Mode 2 and Mode 3 and is looking for a riskier play in exchange for more potential gains. Also, Mode 1 should not be considered if there are less 4+s than 3s.

2-1-1) While tracking, if there are an equal amount of occurrences for an event, you should go OTR for the run that happened most recently on your count.

I think they were some of the main points that a lot of people got confused over. I may have interpreted it incorrectly, so if any of the masters out there can point out my mistakes, it'd be fantastic! I've only been playing baccarat for 3 weeks or so. I may be the most inexperienced player there is in the forum. hahaha

Some issues im facing right now: I seem to suck really bad at table selection. I'd look at a tote board and be like "Wow! Lots of 2s and not that any 1s! OTB4L or F3 would do fine!" As soon as I sit down, icky stuff seems to hit the fan pretty quickly. I seem to win my first bet pretty easily. But then a 1-2-3 bet follows not too far behind. That needs more practicing. Like Oz says, he can do it in a few seconds now. I'm totally jealous. I almost never play System 40. Actually now that I think about it. I've never played S40. Shame on me D:

Money management problems then stem from my first issue. Since I don't build up enough units early on to bet confidently, I find myself close to the -8 stop loss count quite early on. Once I get close, I get nervous and sometimes I break the stop loss rule. Sorry

Anyways, that's my experiences from my first week of joining BTC. Special thanks to OZ again. Hopefully us Sydney siders can meet up sometime to play! I'm also going to Singapore for a day in mid-July so if Witchy or any of the SG players are happy to meet up. That would be super awesome! International connections united by the goal of taking the house. I likey.

Peace!

D

[ECD]

Welcome Chief! Glad to see another Sydney sider.

I've just finished the 55 pages from the NOR+ thread and if you'd like we can discuss what we absorbed from it so it can speed up our learning.

Also MVS, thanks for showing me the correct format to lay out shoes.

So from what I've gathered from the NOR+ thread (off the top of my head, to see how much I can remember) is that:

1. Most shoes can be handled by OTB4L M3. However, this does not mean you should not apply other methods when the shoe obviously favours something else. (e.g playing F on SS shoes)

2. Changing modes seem to be the trickiest part for most people. Starting with Mode 3, if you lose your third bet (not necessarily the 3unit bet), you should change to mode 2 AFTER the current run. For example, you lose your first, second and third bet, your fourth bet would be OTR and regardless of whether it wins or not, you resume your play (OTB4L). However, since your third bet lost, you are now in mode 2. Mode 2 meaning that after losing two consecutive bets, you bet OTR up to two times. If the first OTR bet wins, bet OTR again. If it loses, change back to OTB4L. Losing your first OTR bet in Mode 2 would mean that you are in the wrong mode, so it's time to switch back to Mode 3.

2-1)Mode 1 is somewhat of an advanced move where you jump to OTR after losing 1 bet. In Nor+, we track the number of occurrences of specific events. For example, if you see a 4iar, note it down. 6iar? Note it down. This is a rough indication on which event is most likely to occur from the information the shoe has given us. If you've tracked 3iar occurring once, but 5iar occurring 4 times, if you lose an OTB4L bet due to a 3iar, you would jump OTR and shoot for a 5iar.

Once the run breaks, switch back to OTB4L.

You should also note that when tracking these events, you will be tracking ZZ runs and ST runs. If you lose your first bet in your bet progression, jump OTR and aim for the event which occurred most (ZZ 4 times happened most? Aim for that the next time you lose a bet to the start of a ZZ. 5iar happened most? Bet that it'll happen again once you lose a bet to the start of a ST run). If you lose any bet OTR, revert back to Mode 3. Mode 1 should only be used once the player is fully comfortable switching between Mode 2 and Mode 3 and is looking for a riskier play in exchange for more potential gains. Also, Mode 1 should not be considered if there are less 4+s than 3s.

2-1-1) While tracking, if there are an equal amount of occurrences for an event, you should go OTR for the run that happened most recently on your count.

I think they were some of the main points that a lot of people got confused over. I may have interpreted it incorrectly, so if any of the masters out there can point out my mistakes, it'd be fantastic! I've only been playing baccarat for 3 weeks or so. I may be the most inexperienced player there is in the forum. hahaha

Some issues im facing right now: I seem to suck really bad at table selection. I'd look at a tote board and be like "Wow! Lots of 2s and not that any 1s! OTB4L or F3 would do fine!" As soon as I sit down, icky stuff seems to hit the fan pretty quickly. I seem to win my first bet pretty easily. But then a 1-2-3 bet follows not too far behind. That needs more practicing. Like Oz says, he can do it in a few seconds now. I'm totally jealous. I almost never play System 40. Actually now that I think about it. I've never played S40. Shame on me D:

Money management problems then stem from my first issue. Since I don't build up enough units early on to bet confidently, I find myself close to the -8 stop loss count quite early on. Once I get close, I get nervous and sometimes I break the stop loss rule. Sorry

Anyways, that's my experiences from my first week of joining BTC. Special thanks to OZ again. Hopefully us Sydney siders can meet up sometime to play! I'm also going to Singapore for a day in mid-July so if Witchy or any of the SG players are happy to meet up. That would be super awesome! International connections united by the goal of taking the house. I likey.

Peace!

D

That all looks like you have a pretty good grasp of NOR+ OTB4L... Not bad at all.

Just a few thoughts...

I think it's a pretty good idea to never...ever exceed the -8 STOP/LOSS...Bad Derek...LOL

Table selection: I assume that you are flat betting single units until your first win..It might be worthwhile flat betting a little longer into the shoe until you see what it's doing. (We'll see what Ellis thinks on that score...he's the Prof around here)

Sometimes though...you can do everything right according to the book but it doesn't work out... Time to cut your losses and live to fight another day.

The Star Casino Low Min bet tables can be a bit sketchy...The $200 min tables seem more consistent for some reason...But it can be hard getting your head around that size min at first.

You seem to be progressing a lot quicker than I did though for sure and certain

Take care

Oz

[ChiefAurelius]

Hey guys,

Forgive a beginner question...I'm still plowing through the manual, trying to thoroughly understand the concepts. Did you find it hard getting your head around the OR Count at first?

I suppose like all beginners, I've absorbed some concepts really quickly and others are taking longer to sink in.

Also, do you record the OR count on your scorecard? If so, where? (eg at the end of 20?)

Thanks all. Hope you're all cleaning up.

Cheers

Chief

[Guest]

Hey guys,

Forgive a beginner question...I'm still plowing through the manual, trying to thoroughly understand the concepts. Did you find it hard getting your head around the OR Count at first?

I suppose like all beginners, I've absorbed some concepts really quickly and others are taking longer to sink in.

Also, do you record the OR count on your scorecard? If so, where? (eg at the end of 20?)

Thanks all. Hope you're all cleaning up.

Cheers

Chief

Yes Chief, The OR count is a little ungainly for everyone at first and yes, you should reserve a column for the OR count on your score card. Most members here who have designed their own score card have a separate column reserved for the OR count and make an entry every play except, of course, the first play of the shoe.

While ungainly at first you will soon be just as proficient with the OR count as you would be with a PB count.

At first, the OR count is critical for determining the right system to play. It can only do one of 3 things:

It can favor + = S40

It can favor - = F

It can favor 0 = OTB4L

This information alone already puts you way ahead of the avg player who, at best, looks at P vs B.

A PB count is only meaningful if you have a BIG disparity = F, but this disparity is so big, at least 2 to 1, that you don't need a count to tell you - it is obvious. Most modern tote boards today display P vs B anyway.

Eventually, after a year or 2, you will no longer need the OR count.

You will graduate to determining which system to play by the "overlay" method. After the first 10 or 12 plays or so, you will be able to mentally overlay all 3 systems on your score card and KNOW which would be doing the best thus far.

Next, you won't even need that. You will be able to go by the events thus far. All 3 systems and their two modes like certain events and hate certain events. This will make system selection as well as mode selection quite obvious. But it takes time to develop that talent. Meanwhile, the OR count is almost as good.

Recognize that casinos have little, if any, control over P vs B (although some shoes it seems they do)

But they have total control over O vs R through their hand shuffles, their card preps, their machine settings and their choice of preshuffled cards - a subject in itself.

So, when you go WITH the OR count, you are likewise going WITH casino presentation. This way any casino manipulation works for you instead of against you. THAT is what makes the game beatable.

[ChiefAurelius]

Thank you immensely for that response.

I guess it is ungainly at this stage, but your answer opened many doors in my mind.

The couple of hands that I've run the count on to practice - while it took time - made it incredibly obvious which mode the shoe was in. I was a bit stunned... after a year or so of reading tote boards.

I can really see now how it fits, particularly when you spoke of specific modes liking certain events and hating others.

I might also pencil in to scan the boards for reference to the preshuffled cards. That sentence about the choice of preshuffled cards seems like a goldmine on its own.

I'm very grateful for the insight.

Chief.

[ChiefAurelius]

Sorry guys, another newby question.

What is a "0 unit bet"?

Is that like dummy trading?

Cheers

Chief

[Guest]

Sorry guys, another newby question.

What is a "0 unit bet"?

Is that like dummy trading?

Cheers

Chief

Same as no bet.

[ChiefAurelius]

Thanks Ellis.

So every bet that you don't make is a zero unit bet? And by extension there's no need to record - just keep the OR count?

[Guest]

Thanks Ellis.

So every bet that you don't make is a zero unit bet? And by extension there's no need to record - just keep the OR count?

Correct and enter your same score in your S column.

No bets can come up at the beginning of a shoe when playing in the blind (No idea of prior shoes or which system to play) (should be avoided when possible)

No bets can also come up mid shoe when you know you should switch but you want more evidence on what to switch to.

The best way to start your session is pick the tote board showing the strongest bias (don't forget Neutral - OTB4L) and start mid shoe when you already know which system and which mode to play.

Some players have a thing about always awaiting a new shoe. We call that "stupid". Mid shoe is your strongest start.

A common casino practice is to prep new cards with an OTB4L card prep like Gold Strike, Tunica MS. We can just play new cards (first 3 shoes) and pretty much win every shoe with OTB4L. I've won 20 shoes in a row many times at Tunica by starting early in the morning and sticking with new cards. For casinos using regular cards (vs "preshuffled" cards) it pays to know what their morning card prep produces - usually either chop or neutral. Many casinos prefer Neutral because nobody knows how to play them except us. All systems except OTB4L are either chop or streak systems. OTB4L is virtually unknown by players and casinos alike.

Hollywood PA had a 10 player, new cards every shoe table. They used an OTB4L card prep every shoe. Keith and I won every shoe at that table every day at +20 or more. Perplexed, the casino physically removed the table from the casino the day before our seminar was scheduled there. The Casino Mgr also reneged on our agreement to use a casino room for our seminar. So we had it at the motel next door.

For the last 20 years no US casino will allow me to have a seminar at their casino - neither Bac nor BJ. But not so strangely, they allow EVERYONE else. I hate the bastards. They are my swarn enemy. And I'll spend the rest of my days teaching players how to beat them.

A lot of the animosity toward me on the internet was actually started by the casinos themselves.

[ChiefAurelius]

Thanks Ellis. That's very helpful.

Just to clarify, Gold Strike and Tunica MS are preshuffled ('prep'ed) shoes? Generally designed to fall into OTB4L (thus more unwinnable for the average punter)?

Also, I was reading on the thread titled "Wendel's Shoe" you mentioned 'play 2'; does this mean column 2?

Sorry for the million questions, I'm just trying to join all the dots.

Cheers

Chief

[Guest]

Thanks Ellis. That's very helpful.

Just to clarify, Gold Strike and Tunica MS are preshuffled ('prep'ed) shoes? Generally designed to fall into OTB4L (thus more unwinnable for the average punter)?

Well, you're close! Gold Strike is a casino in Tunica MS attached to Horseshoe, another excellent casino. Both use what we call "regular cards" - new cards come in "boxed card order" - 8 sealed decks in factory order A-2, A-2, A-2, A-2, just like you might buy a sealed deck at your local store. This is opposed to "preshuffled" cards where an 8 deck bundle comes to the table supposedly already shuffled but actually put in card orders prescribed by the casino. We prefer regular cards. When a table opens the dealer "preps" the new cards which includes a "wash", 2 decks at a time. The dealer spreads the 2 decks, using the whole table and sort of mesmerizes them with her hands. The wash is important because it determines the shoe type you are about to get.

A very light wash, using the palms of her hands and lasting about 15 seconds (for 2 decks) will produce a streaky shoe. We call that an "eyewash".

A medium wash, which is what they ALWAYS use at Tunica, last about 25 seconds, and produces an OTB4L shoe virtually like clockwork.

A full wash lasting about 45 seconds with only 2 decks and using her finger tips rather than her palms and where you can see spots of green felt through the cards will produce a choppy shoe.

This "prep" or "wash" is only done ONCE when new cards come out. After the wash and after each game, the dealer uses a standard shuffle. Your OTB4L game begins to dissipate after 3 shoes and may go in any direction depending mostly on the dealer. No two dealers shuffle exactly alike. While they follow each casino's standard procedure, each dealer has a different effect on the cards due mostly to "entertwine" differences. We need to be prepared for the game to go in any direction after the first 3 or so shuffles. It might even stay OTB4L.

Now at Tunica, once the cards are prepped, they use the same cards all day using the standard shuffle.

But at Foxwood CT, used to be the largest casino in the world, at their big Bac tables (14 player tables) they wash brand new boxed card order regular cards every shoe. Here all 8 decks are washed at the same time because the big table has more than enough room to do this. The wash is either 30 seconds = streak, or 60 seconds = chop.

Of course the casino knows all this even better than I do and have known it since the mid '80s or perhaps longer. They learned "shuffle technology" in Blackjack and simply applied that science to Baccarat in the early '90s. Wash timing is virtually faultless. I learned it by watching and timing thousands of washes especially at Foxwood - where I was once ejected for openly timing the wash with a stop watch. I wanted to see their reaction. If wash time makes no difference, why would they eject me? I wanted to prove to myself that I was on the right track. And the casino obliged. I have been timing washes ever since.

Casinos time their washes at the high stakes new cards every shoe tables according to whether the players are playing chop or streak systems. Casinos know systems even better than the players do and time their washes accordingly.

This was particularly apparent in the secret high stakes room upstairs at Caesars, Vegas. $50,000 limit. Here the casino pulls a neat trick: They prep the cards on one table while the players are playing on another table. Then when a shoe finishes, the players simply switch tables taking their same seats. "Saves time." Ha!

Incredibly the players failed to notice that one table is prepped for chop and the other for streak. So they are always caught "wrong footed" at the beginning of every shoe and lose at an incredible rate. I simply played up as you lose at the chop table and up as you win at the streak table. This was 100% effective and I won every shoe I played there - hundreds of shoes.

But then, one fateful night one of the all Asian players told me he was $70,000 down and politely asked if he could follow me. He was soon $70.000 up and the casino immediately ejected me "for using a scorecard from another casino". Yeah, right!

Also, I was reading on the thread titled "Wendel's Shoe" you mentioned 'play 2'; does this mean column 2?

Sorry for the million questions, I'm just trying to join all the dots.

Cheers

Chief

Probably not. I likely meant the second hand of the shoe.

We always number our plays. This makes for easier discussion on the forum later among other things.

[ChiefAurelius]

Thanks Ellis! Another element of Bacc play that had completely escaped my attention. You are a genius.

I thought I might post my first sojourn at the tables since studying the system...

I might preface by saying that while I'd read the manual, started to highlight the NOR+ thread elements, and am halfway through the bootcamp manual, I still felt immensely underdone. One just has to read any of your posts Ellis to realise just how deep this journey goes.

The reason I went, in spite of having very limited time, was because it was dawning on me how important the OR Count is, and I didn't feel it was sinking in.

So I went in with the objective of solidifying my OR Count proficiency.

The previous night I'd done hours of reading and studying, and had even prepared a "prompt" card, to keep in my pocket, with some coded rules that would prompt me should I lose my way. I walked in, sat near the shoe, grabbed a card and rearranged their card so it tracked all of the elements you'd taught us to track - at least to the best of my rookie ability.

I'd played before, but as I mentioned, under the tutelage of a 'professional gambler'. He does alright, but through this forum and your work, I realised he can - like many others - only play streak or chop. He simply won't throw down if the shoe wanders into neutral. I've got a sneaky suspicion now that whilst he's very good at streak, a lot of his winnings stem from being one of those rare really 'lucky' people.

So I started charting the shoe, measuring the count (yes, I really needed to do it with a live shoe for it to sink in), and lacking a bit of confidence on the betting strategy at the moment, only 'paper traded' or zero bet. When I hit three out of three, I decided now was as good a time as any.

I cashed in 9 units (all that was within budget at this time).

Here's the shoe:

B 2542111212

B 111218411

P 33224224

P 21311111

My betting strategy understanding is still shabby, so I concede that I no doubt messed a lot of that up. Also, when the shoe produced 4 B after 8 P I got a bit lost. Fortunately, recalibrated and rode out the tail end of the shoe until I remembered the win/loss stops.

Ended up with a ratio of win 14 against a loss of 11. With my shabby deployment of the betting strategy/cash management, I ended up 5 units in front, before I backed out because of the stop loss points.

What was quite interesting was that after dinner I quickly returned to that table before I had to leave. I quickly scribbled down the tote board before I had to go (which was before the shoe was finished). Here it is:

P 311123122222

P 112344121

B 11212221 (incomplete thereafter).

Interesting huh? What a completely different shoe. This casino works on preshuffled decks.

The best thing was not the tidy profit, but how much more clear the concepts became once - having put in hours of study - the rubber hit the road.

I'm intending to spend the weekend, trying to review the accuracy or otherwise of my decisions.

The outcome was achieved in that I realised how CRITICAL the OR Count is, and even better, got paid for learning.

As an aside, I noticed two interesting things other than the core learning experience:

1. the Tote board had an extra hand to compared to the number I had recorded. I don't know the significance (if any) of this, but I rechecked 6 times and could not tally my hand count (P & B not counting Ties) with their hand count.

2. there was another player who was seated at the table. I was a bit preoccupied with what felt like a million things going on at the one time - OR Count, hand count, correct recording of the hand, bet recording, bet strategy, and finally stop points - but I looked up at him, and he would put down his bet and his hand wouldn't stop shaking. He was betting 6-10 units at a time, and seemed to be winning more than he was losing, but he was obviously physically - and adversely - affected by every hand. The reason I mention is that it struck me as to the contrast. I was so preoccupied tracking my - now not so elusive - prey, that the result of the hand was less a consequence than a confirmation of the next step. He was a mess. What a difference it makes learning from an expert.

Anyway, thanks is all I have left to say.

Cheers

Chief

[Guest]

Right chief, we pride ourselves at usually being the lowest bettors at the table. Many try to "buy the shoe" with huge bets but this is a ridiculous way to play let alone extremely uncomfortable.

The game isn't about how much you bet - it's about how often you bet on the right side.

Once you are at a 50% hit rate or better, progressions begin to make sense. They make the most out of your hit rate advantage. Now Mathematicians say that progressions are useless. But remember I am a Mathematician too. The problem with math is you must first assume a given to give yourself a starting point. Mathematicians assume a 50% hit rate because they know no better. They simply don't understand the manipulations of the casino. But NOR THRIVES on those same manipulations! We are very used to taking advantage of our higher hit rates actually produced by casino manipulation. So we say FINE, let them cheat because the more they cheat the better we do.

So Mathematicians, knowing no better and not understanding what they are up against, say casinos would never cheat. Ha, that shows you why mathematicians make such poor gamblers. They are totally naive and have no grasp of what is actually going on right under their noses. Math just doesn't cut it and never will. You have to think like the casino thinks. You have to be up on the realities of the game. You have to live in the real world - Not some mathematical fairy land.