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Hi Ellis,

The NOR manuals and the forum has been excellent insights. Learning and slowly sinking in.

Thanks for the same.

However I am pretty confused with the Modes and stuck and dont know how to proceed.

Below is the question I am having. Could you please throw light as to why this decision was made?

In the Sample Shoe 1 posted on the site where you are discussing about the S40 system.

Game 29 you go OTR for 3 bets, won the bet, repeat OTR for 1 more time and continue Mode 2.

Game 33 you go OTR for 3 bets, lost the bet, repeat OTR for 1 more time and shift to Mode 3.

Game 53 you lost 2 bets and decided to go for the 3 bets straight down the losing side.

Why not OTR for game 54 for the 3 bets?

Thanks

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Hi Ellis,

The NOR manuals and the forum has been excellent insights. Learning and slowly sinking in.

Thanks for the same.

However I am pretty confused with the Modes and stuck and dont know how to proceed.

Below is the question I am having. Could you please throw light as to why this decision was made?

In the Sample Shoe 1 posted on the site where you are discussing about the S40 system.

Game 29 you go OTR for 3 bets, won the bet, repeat OTR for 1 more time and continue Mode 2.

Game 33 you go OTR for 3 bets, lost the bet, repeat OTR for 1 more time and shift to Mode 3.

Game 53 you lost 2 bets and decided to go for the 3 bets straight down the losing side.

Why not OTR for game 54 for the 3 bets?

Thanks

Does it mean because we are in Mode 3 we should continue 3 times in the losing side before going to OTR side?

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Does it mean because we are in Mode 3 we should continue 3 times in the losing side before going to OTR side?

Yes, in all 3 NOR systems modes are played exactly the same way:

Mode 2 means go OTR after 2 losing bets and stay OTR for 2 bets if you win the first OTR bet until staying OTR for 2 bets proves wrong.

Recognize that in all 3 Nor systems, the only way to lose 2 bets in a row is against a run. Now the question is, do we go OTR (Mode 2) or do we bet against the run one more time (Mode 3)???

Mode 3 means go OTR after 3 losing bets but stay OTR for only ONE bet because you got on the run so late. But again if staying OTR for only 1 bet proves wrong it is best for the next run to stay OTR until you lose.

Now, which mode to be in is controlled by the 3rd bet rule which simply says if you lose your 3rd bet whether it be OTR (Mode 2) or ATR (Against the run) (Mode 3) you are in the WRONG mode nomatter which mode you were in so change modes for the next run.

However later in the shoe, once we have attempted several OTR bets, we go with which ever way won the 3rd bet the most times.

Now, sometimes our 3rd bet rule is wrong every time. In S40 this happens when 3s are exactly interlaced with 4+s. In that rare case we pick the mode that won the most and simply stay in that mode no matter what.

Another guideline is that Mode 2 is best for streaky shoes (long runs) and Mode 3 is best for chop. (short runs)

All of these Mode rules are simply so you don't have to go back and count runs. But they amount to the same thing as counting 3s (Mode 3) vs 4 or mores (Mode 2) in S40 and:

4s (Mode 3) vs 5 or mores (Mode 2) in OTB4L.

We think the 3rd bet rule is easier and it gives you the exact same result. The 3rd bet rule automates SAP (counting runs by length) but a handful of players prefer to use SAP since they understand it. But for most of us the 3rd bet rule is simplest. You either won your 3rd bet (right mode) or you lost it (wrong mode)

Now, we say "3rd bet" rather than "3 bet" because once you graduate from NOR's 123 4 prog (where all winning bets go back to 1) up to NOR+'s U1D2 betting, (You go down 2 after a winning bet) your 3rd bet is not always a 3 bet.

Yes, Mode rules seem very "tangled" the first time or two BUT, once you see HOW they work and more importantly WHY they work and have a few shoes under your belt, Modes will become automatic for you and all of this initial confusion will seem funny because Modes are really simple once you get the hang of our simplified rules. 3rd bets decide EVERYTHING and there are only 2 things that can happen - you either win them (stay in same mode) or lose them (change modes) and the 3rd bet rule is right no matter which side you bet it on. A little practice goes a long way.

The only thing I didn't cover is which mode to start with???

If you are starting mid shoe, which all new students SHOULD be doing, You can tell the correct mode from the shoe history.

But as you get better, especially after learning to use prior shoe history, You find yourself starting ealier and earlier - even before we have 3rd bet history. It is somewhat arbitrary but experience has taught us to start OTB4L in mode 3 and S40 in mode 2 until the shoe proves otherwise.

F strong side, Starting in Mode 3 is right most often.

F because of long straight runs on BOTH sides, Mode 2 is right most often.

But here's the thing: right now you are not yet seeing the overall picture. Once you do, The whole Mode thing becomes very obvious.

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We always have members that drop out before grasping the big picture. These are the same type people who change jobs often. Somehow they got the idea that beating casinos should be easy. They don't seem to grasp that if that were true there would be no casinos.

No, it is not easy! But on the other hand it gets easier and easier as the big picture clears and begins getting definition.

But, I'm going to tell you something right here that might seem a little self indulging to you at first. If you don't learn here you won't learn ANYWHERE. There are NO other winning Baccarat forums on the internet or anywhere else that work. We KNOW because we've tried them all. NOR, NOR+, SAP, is the ONLY WINNING approach out there - no matter what ANYBODY tells you. So, believe this or not, get to work. Winning Baccarat is on your doorstep BUT, you have to open the door.

Guys, am I right or not? Most of you have been there, done that.

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Thanks Ellis for the clarification. Still digesting the information.

Hope i get upto speed soon enough..

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• Users

But, I'm going to tell you something right here that might seem a little self indulging to you at first. If you don't learn here you won't learn ANYWHERE. There are NO other winning Baccarat forums on the internet or anywhere else that work. We KNOW because we've tried them all. NOR, NOR+, SAP, is the ONLY WINNING approach out there - no matter what ANYBODY tells you. So, believe this or not, get to work. Winning Baccarat is on your doorstep BUT, you have to open the door.

Guys, am I right or not? Most of you have been there, done that.

100% correct! The NOR and SAP-based tools represents the very best thinking and approach to CONSISTENTLY beating this game. It doesn't mean you can read a manual and immediately be a winner. You really need to develop a keen sense of awareness and observation, combined with a thorough understanding of what the shoe is telling you in real time. Study and practice -- it is so worth it.

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Thanks Ellis and Way2Fast for the responses and encouragement. Will do all it takes.

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Adding Ellis' post #3 in this thread to my binder. Just another great post explaining the modes. Thanks.

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Hang in there BacPlayer. I am new too. But when it finally clicks and you are practicing and winning, winning, winning, it really feels great! Now to take it live!!!!!

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• 1 month later...

Does anyone know the thread for the SAP Tool?

Thanks,

Peter

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I don't quite understand how you determine mode 2 or mode 3 for F.

I noticed for a lot of F shoes that I played in using m2... quite often there is a point or maybe two points in the shoe where you can lose a ton of bets in a row.

Example would be in m2, lose 2, switch to other side, lose that and switch back and lose another 3 hands because you may be in m3 now.

I also looked at other shoes and the same thing happened when starting with m3 where there is a point where you lose a lot of bets in a row because the shoe does the exact opposite of what we want.

For m3, it would be lose 3 bets, then i switch lose one, and switch back and i lose 2 again and switch since in m2.... it happens around 20-40 hands and then i stop and just chart.

Yes, in all 3 NOR systems modes are played exactly the same way:

Mode 2 means go OTR after 2 losing bets and stay OTR for 2 bets if you win the first OTR bet until staying OTR for 2 bets proves wrong.

Recognize that in all 3 Nor systems, the only way to lose 2 bets in a row is against a run. Now the question is, do we go OTR (Mode 2) or do we bet against the run one more time (Mode 3)???

Mode 3 means go OTR after 3 losing bets but stay OTR for only ONE bet because you got on the run so late. But again if staying OTR for only 1 bet proves wrong it is best for the next run to stay OTR until you lose.

Now, which mode to be in is controlled by the 3rd bet rule which simply says if you lose your 3rd bet whether it be OTR (Mode 2) or ATR (Against the run) (Mode 3) you are in the WRONG mode nomatter which mode you were in so change modes for the next run.

However later in the shoe, once we have attempted several OTR bets, we go with which ever way won the 3rd bet the most times.

Now, sometimes our 3rd bet rule is wrong every time. In S40 this happens when 3s are exactly interlaced with 4+s. In that rare case we pick the mode that won the most and simply stay in that mode no matter what.

Another guideline is that Mode 2 is best for streaky shoes (long runs) and Mode 3 is best for chop. (short runs)

All of these Mode rules are simply so you don't have to go back and count runs. But they amount to the same thing as counting 3s (Mode 3) vs 4 or mores (Mode 2) in S40 and:

4s (Mode 3) vs 5 or mores (Mode 2) in OTB4L.

We think the 3rd bet rule is easier and it gives you the exact same result. The 3rd bet rule automates SAP (counting runs by length) but a handful of players prefer to use SAP since they understand it. But for most of us the 3rd bet rule is simplest. You either won your 3rd bet (right mode) or you lost it (wrong mode)

Now, we say "3rd bet" rather than "3 bet" because once you graduate from NOR's 123 4 prog (where all winning bets go back to 1) up to NOR+'s U1D2 betting, (You go down 2 after a winning bet) your 3rd bet is not always a 3 bet.

Yes, Mode rules seem very "tangled" the first time or two BUT, once you see HOW they work and more importantly WHY they work and have a few shoes under your belt, Modes will become automatic for you and all of this initial confusion will seem funny because Modes are really simple once you get the hang of our simplified rules. 3rd bets decide EVERYTHING and there are only 2 things that can happen - you either win them (stay in same mode) or lose them (change modes) and the 3rd bet rule is right no matter which side you bet it on. A little practice goes a long way.

The only thing I didn't cover is which mode to start with???

If you are starting mid shoe, which all new students SHOULD be doing, You can tell the correct mode from the shoe history.

But as you get better, especially after learning to use prior shoe history, You find yourself starting ealier and earlier - even before we have 3rd bet history. It is somewhat arbitrary but experience has taught us to start OTB4L in mode 3 and S40 in mode 2 until the shoe proves otherwise.

F strong side, Starting in Mode 3 is right most often.

F because of long straight runs on BOTH sides, Mode 2 is right most often.

But here's the thing: right now you are not yet seeing the overall picture. Once you do, The whole Mode thing becomes very obvious.

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There's a point where you may have to switch systems and not just the mode... i.e. to match the shoe and not stick with F system all the way... look at the OR count and see where the direction is heading...

If it's heading Positive... it's chopping - I remember Pork Chops, use System S40

If it's heading Negative... it's streaking - I remember Nice Streak, use System F

If it's hovering/circling around a number... i.e. close to zero like a sine wave... it's Neutral - use System OBT4L

I think you only switch Modes if you lose the 3rd Bet before OTR - re read Ellis' post and manual as many times as you can...

Win 3rd Bet - Stay on same Mode

Lose 3rd Bet - Change Mode

Mode 2: "Mode 2 means go OTR after 2 losing bets and stay OTR for 2 bets if you win the first OTR bet until staying OTR for 2 bets proves wrong"

(Memory Mnemonic OTR 2+2 loses = 4)

Mode 3: "Mode 3 means go OTR after 3 losing bets but stay OTR for onlyONE bet because you got on the run so late. But again if staying OTR for only 1 bet proves wrong it is best for the next run to stay OTR until you lose."

(Memory Mnemonic OTR 3+1 loss = 4)

The overall idea/picture I think is to win more than you lose... with a net gain overall? you may not capture the whole streak/chop...

Hope this helps... I'm still learning myself... but you'll get there eventually... ;-)

Peter

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Hmmm, you're beginning to look quite promising Peter!

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Well Ellis,

I actually meant, you once stated start F2, but recently I see start F3. So which is it, or do we just go with history.

So basically my question was, if I did go with history, it usually is one after the other... f2 first then f3 the next so even if I waited for history it would be wrong... so what do I do them, it seems to always happen.

Then there usually is always a point where you are always wrong no matter what mode you are in, you lose 6 plays in a row its around 80%+ that I have seen this.

I don't always play all 6 bets since I watch out for it, but it seems to always happen.

I need help on what we should start with and how to deal with the plays that can kill ya.

Example. F3... im giving a portion of the shoe where I have issues.

411 213

After the 411, you lose 6 bets in a row going from f2, then otr, then back, and to f3 for 3 bets.

I don't quite understand how you determine mode 2 or mode 3 for F.

I noticed for a lot of F shoes that I played in using m2... quite often there is a point or maybe two points in the shoe where you can lose a ton of bets in a row.

Example would be in m2, lose 2, switch to other side, lose that and switch back and lose another 3 hands because you may be in m3 now.

I also looked at other shoes and the same thing happened when starting with m3 where there is a point where you lose a lot of bets in a row because the shoe does the exact opposite of what we want.

For m3, it would be lose 3 bets, then i switch lose one, and switch back and i lose 2 again and switch since in m2.... it happens around 20-40 hands and then i stop and just chart.

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411 213

After the 411, you lose 6 bets in a row going from f2, then otr, then back, and to f3 for 3 bets.

Stop after losing your 3rd bet after 411 21 and look at the OR Count? You may need to consider changing System and not just the Mode i.e. OTB4L or System 40 as your 'Go to' ;-)

from 4 1 1 2 1 I get OR count -1, -2,-3, -2, -1, 0, -1, 0, 1, 0, 1, etc.... Bold Underlined numbers appear to be oscillating/moving towards chop overlap...

Also You can always Bet a 0 Unit bet... ;-)

Hope this helps.

Peter

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Well Ellis,

I actually meant, you once stated start F2, but recently I see start F3. So which is it, or do we just go with history.

So basically my question was, if I did go with history, it usually is one after the other... f2 first then f3 the next so even if I waited for history it would be wrong... so what do I do them, it seems to always happen.

Then there usually is always a point where you are always wrong no matter what mode you are in, you lose 6 plays in a row its around 80%+ that I have seen this.

I don't always play all 6 bets since I watch out for it, but it seems to always happen.

I need help on what we should start with and how to deal with the plays that can kill ya.

Example. F3... im giving a portion of the shoe where I have issues.

411 213

After the 411, you lose 6 bets in a row going from f2, then otr, then back, and to f3 for 3 bets.

kilieu! NOTHING "always happens" in Baccarat! You can't play this game or any other casino game with a negative attitude.

There is a type of player I can point to in any casino that is out to unconsciously prove he can't win.

I have watched them and even played with them thousands of times. They represent about a 5th of all casino goers.

They have an almost visible black cloud over their head. They have a perfect knack for doing the wrong thing at the

wrong time and seem to be virtually proud of it. They have that identifiable body language and are always whining.

They will be down 14 units in the very same shoe I'm up 14 units.

System F is by far the system we play the least. We NEVER start a shoe with F! - unless we already know we are at a

very streaky table preferably also strong sided and we know that card color is very streaky or we are starting mid shoe

in a very streaky shoe. In my last two Vegas trips, 40 shoes worth, I never played F even once because I never saw an

F shoe at any time of day in any casino. They are decidedly very rare.

The pattern you mention is decidedly NOT an F pattern. It is not streaky or strong sided and would be very unlikely

to show up in any truly F shoe, especially starting on the weak side. VERY unlikely!

That is an OTB4L pattern and will most likely be found in an OTB4L shoe.

You are relatively new. Learn S40 and OTB4L FIRST because that is what you will be playing the MOST.

It doesn't matter whether you start M2 or M3 because the 3rd bet rule will put you in the right mode soon

enough IF you learned the 3rd bet rule in your S40 and OTB4L studies.

I'm merely pointing out that in a very strong sided shoe, a shoe where we WOULD likely be playing F, we

They are, in fact, what makes a shoe SS and F.

M3 beats BOTH while M2 only beats 1's. Get it?

90% of the players in casinos - all they do is complain. There is no hope for them.

YOU are there to win!

The shoe is what the shoe is.

Play the right system the right way and your complaints will vanish.

Understand?

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Ok, I guess I will be careful with F, or if the shoe does start F, then I should look for a change and not stay in F the whole shoe.

The example I showed was a portion of the shoe, it actually started out F. I guess I'll write out the whole shoe next time. Here is another example in F2. You can see that I notice there is always a time in my F that I could lose all the hands in the 2131 going from F2 to F3. That was my question how to get around this when I was clearly in an F shoe. Is it inevitable? After I lose the 3rd bet, I lay off, but still chart it to see what happens and it happens quite often where the mode changes 6 bets in a row.

P174413

P3621314

P2121

kilieu! NOTHING "always happens" in Baccarat! You can't play this game or any other casino game with a negative attitude.

There is a type of player I can point to in any casino that is out to unconsciously prove he can't win.

I have watched them and even played with them thousands of times. They represent about a 5th of all casino goers.

They have an almost visible black cloud over their head. They have a perfect knack for doing the wrong thing at the

wrong time and seem to be virtually proud of it. They have that identifiable body language and are always whining.

They will be down 14 units in the very same shoe I'm up 14 units.

System F is by far the system we play the least. We NEVER start a shoe with F! - unless we already know we are at a

very streaky table preferably also strong sided and we know that card color is very streaky or we are starting mid shoe

in a very streaky shoe. In my last two Vegas trips, 40 shoes worth, I never played F even once because I never saw an

F shoe at any time of day in any casino. They are decidedly very rare.

The pattern you mention is decidedly NOT an F pattern. It is not streaky or strong sided and would be very unlikely

to show up in any truly F shoe, especially starting on the weak side. VERY unlikely!

That is an OTB4L pattern and will most likely be found in an OTB4L shoe.

You are relatively new. Learn S40 and OTB4L FIRST because that is what you will be playing the MOST.

It doesn't matter whether you start M2 or M3 because the 3rd bet rule will put you in the right mode soon

enough IF you learned the 3rd bet rule in your S40 and OTB4L studies.

I'm merely pointing out that in a very strong sided shoe, a shoe where we WOULD likely be playing F, we

They are, in fact, what makes a shoe SS and F.

M3 beats BOTH while M2 only beats 1's. Get it?

90% of the players in casinos - all they do is complain. There is no hope for them.

YOU are there to win!

The shoe is what the shoe is.

Play the right system the right way and your complaints will vanish.

Understand?

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Ok, I guess I will be careful with F, or if the shoe does start F, then I should look for a change and not stay in F the whole shoe.

The example I showed was a portion of the shoe, it actually started out F. I guess I'll write out the whole shoe next time. Here is another example in F2. You can see that I notice there is always a time in my F that I could lose all the hands in the 2131 going from F2 to F3. That was my question how to get around this when I was clearly in an F shoe. Is it inevitable? After I lose the 3rd bet, I lay off, but still chart it to see what happens and it happens quite often where the mode changes 6 bets in a row.

P174413

P3621314

P2121

F shoes are usually only found at F tables (tables that have been streaky for several shoes).

Early runs are always a nusiance and often spell departure. They also screw up your OR count. I often ignore them altogether.

This shoe has no SS so is therefore not a great F candidate.

I note that straight OTB4LM3, U1D2, ignoring the run altogether, scores a pretty easy +12.

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Ok, thanks for the info.

May I ask how come there were no mode changes. For me, if I were to use otb, I would start m3.

Then then 4 players, I would have changed to m2, then after that, I don't know what to do as there are 4 and a 6.

The beginning with OTB would have got me pretty confused as usually with a big hit at the beginning. Need your help on that.

F shoes are usually only found at F tables (tables that have been streaky for several shoes).

Early runs are always a nusiance and often spell departure. They also screw up your OR count. I often ignore them altogether.

This shoe has no SS so is therefore not a great F candidate.

I note that straight OTB4LM3, U1D2, ignoring the run altogether, scores a pretty easy +12.

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Ok, thanks for the info.

May I ask how come there were no mode changes. For me, if I were to use otb, I would start m3.

Then then 4 players, I would have changed to m2, then after that, I don't know what to do as there are 4 and a 6.

The beginning with OTB would have got me pretty confused as usually with a big hit at the beginning. Need your help on that.

Hint:

1. never make a 2 unit bet until you've won your first 1 unit flat bet

2. find a good place to start the system (I started a bit too early and ignored Point 1. in error and ended up with Score of 5 at the end - my error)

3. I became a bit more conservative in my betting when I was nearing the loss limit of -8, but held on and went back up to score of five...

4. You have 50/50 chance of winning so the aim is to win more 'hits' than you 'lose' so that means... you're not going to catch? all the wins of a 4 and 6 run...

5. I think because there are 2s, Mode 3 is used... and OTB4L like twos... if I had used Mode 2 I think I would have done better... i.e. OTB4L Mode 2-1 without changing Mode or System along the way...

The thing is to practice, review, ask questions, read the manual/forum, refine your practice and practice... and be systematic...

Hope this helps...

Peter

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Yes, I definitely never make a 2 bet unless I win a flat bet. Sometimes the next loss I still don't go up to a 2 bet until I get momentum.

And I usually start off around hand 5-7 to see which system to play. I don't really see table shoe history being the same or similar at all so can never start at hand 2, its failed too many times to do that so I rather just be safe. Yes I miss out on some good bets, but better to play safe.

Question Peter: If you did m2, you would have lost the first 2, 3 bets with the 4iar... 4players, 4bankers, are you sure you would do better that way?

Hint:

1. never make a 2 unit bet until you've won your first 1 unit flat bet

2. find a good place to start the system (I started a bit too early and ignored Point 1. in error and ended up with Score of 5 at the end - my error)

3. I became a bit more conservative in my betting when I was nearing the loss limit of -8, but held on and went back up to score of five...

4. You have 50/50 chance of winning so the aim is to win more 'hits' than you 'lose' so that means... you're not going to catch? all the wins of a 4 and 6 run...

5. I think because there are 2s, Mode 3 is used... and OTB4L like twos... if I had used Mode 2 I think I would have done better... i.e. OTB4L Mode 2-1 without changing Mode or System along the way...

The thing is to practice, review, ask questions, read the manual/forum, refine your practice and practice... and be systematic...

Hope this helps...

Peter

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For to 4s I would probably hit 2 out of four, and for the 6s I would probably hit 3 to 4 out of 6... I flat betted 1 when I reached very close to -8 and then when I was nearly out of the waters I continued with the U1D2 progression again... You do feel the emotions when you are losing but you learn to manage it... If something is not working keep on figuring out what may have gone wrong... Could be the way we implemented the system, our deciding making processes may need refining and etc... I've had some of these so far but getting better at it...

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Well for the first 4, you would hit the first 2 and then lose 2 and have your 3rd bet. If you are in m2 you would lose your 3rd bet unless your doing something else?

Anyhow, let me know if I am missing something.

I tend to slow down and yes when you are losing your emotions get to you.

I actually played this shoe in and out and hit +17, but I was playing s40 first m2, then switched to F in and out (or some one and some off)... guess I got lucky.

For to 4s I would probably hit 2 out of four, and for the 6s I would probably hit 3 to 4 out of 6... I flat betted 1 when I reached very close to -8 and then when I was nearly out of the waters I continued with the U1D2 progression again... You do feel the emotions when you are losing but you learn to manage it... If something is not working keep on figuring out what may have gone wrong... Could be the way we implemented the system, our deciding making processes may need refining and etc... I've had some of these so far but getting better at it...
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+17 is good, but anything above 10 using progression 123 4 is time to get out after a loss - I think I can actually do better than 5, it's early morning! Not a good time to play after just waking up...! ;-)

Correction: Starting at Play 4 (for fun) using OTB4L M3 I got 5... So how and where you start can have a huge impact in your winning...! I tried M2 properly again = not a very good result if you start too early...

To be honest... I did F with this shoe and got out at 10 units when things started to go downhill - discipline of quitting while you are ahead!

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Gentlemen! The words "Never" and "Always" should not be part of your Baccarat vocabulary. They simply don't apply to smart

play. You want to keep all your options open and following a losing 1 with a 1 or a 2 should depend on how much you know

about the shoe thus far - which should be a lot. You should never be playing this game in the blind. That is pure gambling,

not intelligent play.

Think about it! Your day should start by picking the most biased in progress tote board in the casino. So you should always be

starting your day with maximum information from about a half a shoe. Once in the game you can get information on prior shoes

from the players score cards if you ask politely.

Baccarat is a very friendly game compared to BJ. So, take advantage of that fact. Ask!

Then decide whether to bet 1 or 2 based on hard evidence - not on some personal rule. The more you know

the more you can favor a 2 bet after a losing 1. But the less you know the more you must favor a 1 bet -

because you didn't do your homework before you started play.

If you want to make rules for yourself, try this on for size:

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