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Hey all,

I guess the million dollar forum is for preshuffled cards only right?

Anyway, i have a few question regarding preshuffled card.

I have seen preshuffled card being brought in to my local casino. Therefore I think the usage is somehow somewhat is use at all baccarat table.

But I have observe that on certain days that playing NOR, i can win comfortably at the table but certain days it is tough because NOR just doesn't work. There are easily more than 20 tables to choose from, probably it is tough to win on those select days because the card has just been changed to preshuffled cards that morning. By the way each table is equipped with it own shuffling machine (shuffle master brand).

These are my questions?

1. Is preshuffled cards mentioned in the million dollar forum, refers to a set of new preshuffled card everytime being introduced to that table everytime when the shoe has finished?

2. How about preshuffled cards that are introduced to that table when they have their routine change of cards, but it is later shuffled by the shuffling machine? Does this mean that the first round of the shoe is preshuffled and probably the few subsequent round still being in the "effect" of preshuffled, but gradually it move out from being in the preshuffled mode?

Probably then NOR could be used?

We need a clear of preshuffled cards here?

I understand (based on reading the forum) that some casino is Vegas are using preshuffled cards...how is the preshuffled cards used there? Is there no shuffling machine at all tables?

Thanks & Regards

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Hey all,

I guess the million dollar forum is for preshuffled cards only right?

Anyway, i have a few question regarding preshuffled card.

I have seen preshuffled card being brought in to my local casino. Therefore I think the usage is somehow somewhat is use at all baccarat table.

But I have observe that on certain days that playing NOR, i can win comfortably at the table but certain days it is tough because NOR just doesn't work. There are easily more than 20 tables to choose from, probably it is tough to win on those select days because the card has just been changed to preshuffled cards that morning. By the way each table is equipped with it own shuffling machine (shuffle master brand).

These are my questions?

1. Is preshuffled cards mentioned in the million dollar forum, refers to a set of new preshuffled card everytime being introduced to that table everytime when the shoe has finished?

2. How about preshuffled cards that are introduced to that table when they have their routine change of cards, but it is later shuffled by the shuffling machine? Does this mean that the first round of the shoe is preshuffled and probably the few subsequent round still being in the "effect" of preshuffled, but gradually it move out from being in the preshuffled mode?

Probably then NOR could be used?

We need a clear of preshuffled cards here?

I understand (based on reading the forum) that some casino is Vegas are using preshuffled cards...how is the preshuffled cards used there? Is there no shuffling machine at all tables?

Thanks & Regards

Hi Benny!

First, it is unlikely that your casino is using both regular and preshuffled, but it is possible. Simply ask them and see if they give you a straight answer. Any dealer or pit boss should know. If they won't tell you, try a casino host - and finally, the Casino Mgr. Also ask how often the cards are changed. Usually it's every 4 or every 8 hours but it's important to know.

Yes, preshuffled will definitely effect your NOR play. NOR is a bias strategy. It needs consistent biases. NEW Preshuffled cards are designed to avoid consistent biases. However the longer preshuffled cards are used the more bias will creep in but never as biased as regular cards.

When new "regular" cards come out they will appear at the table in 8 individual sealed boxes. From there they go through a "new card prep" that involves a wash wherein they spread the cards out all over the table and mix them. Some casinos do all 8 decks at once and some two decks at a time. Then they go through a regular hand or machine shuffle. Don't confuse all that with preshuffled.

New, Preshuffled will come to the table in an 8 deck numbered bundle. Some casinos give them a minimal shuffle and some don't bother even with that and put them straight into the dealer shoe. Others, perhaps your casino, put the preshuffled cards directly in a shuffle machine where they are "presumably" shuffled but there is no way you know for sure. Because modern shuffle machines are capable of returning the cards to their original order. The only way to know for sure is to see the cards come to the table. Even if you ask, you can never be sure of the answer. You probably did best playing against old cards and worst playing against new cards.

Vegas is ALL preshuffled and usually shuffled by machine. By my observation all events up to 5iars occur more than normal, 6s can go either way, and 7+s are less than normal. But with preshuffled, all events up to 5s occur closer to normal than with regular cards. That pretty much rules out both NOR and SAP and, in my opinion, 4d also because all 3 of those are bias systems. Up to now the guys have been doing best playing NOR 2Hi (highest bet is 2).

Vegas has two game types, touch and no touch. NOR cares a lot which you play. MDB doesn't care at all. Of course touch games are new cards every shoe. No touch - most casinos change the cards every 4 hours. They aren't stupid.

See, MDB is a different animal altogether. It is desiged for BOTH preshuffled and regular cards - it simply doesn't care. It does not function on biases of any kind at all. No, it won't win as much as NOR does with regular cards BUT it will win more consistently with either kind of cards. One of the members just wrote me this morning that BaS40 alone won 29 out of 30 shoes. After playing solely BaS40 for 5 years, his report doesn't surprise me at all.

See we are trading units for consistency. We only average 6 or 7 (Norm averaged 6) but we win far more consistenly. We bet far less than NOR and win more consistently. That combination allows us to increase our unit size far quicker than we could ever hope for with NOR. And it also lets us play preshuffled cards. If we can do all that we might as well have a million dollar plan. All it takes is consistently winning 5 units. And all that takes is study and practice. It is far simpler than NOR once you get used to it and each of the 3 systems is 100% mechanical.

We already have twice as many MDB private members as we planned on. As it proves itself, well, what would you do about the price???

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Hi Benny!

First, it is unlikely that your casino is using both regular and preshuffled, but it is possible. Simply ask them and see if they give you a straight answer. Any dealer or pit boss should know. If they won't tell you, try a casino host - and finally, the Casino Mgr. Also ask how often the cards are changed. Usually it's every 4 or every 8 hours but it's important to know.

Yes, preshuffled will definitely effect your NOR play. NOR is a bias strategy. It needs consistent biases. NEW Preshuffled cards are designed to avoid consistent biases. However the longer preshuffled cards are used the more bias will creep in but never as biased as regular cards.

When new "regular" cards come out they will appear at the table in 8 individual sealed boxes. From there they go through a "new card prep" that involves a wash wherein they spread the cards out all over the table and mix them. Some casinos do all 8 decks at once and some two decks at a time. Then they go through a regular hand or machine shuffle. Don't confuse all that with preshuffled.

New, Preshuffled will come to the table in an 8 deck numbered bundle. Some casinos give them a minimal shuffle and some don't bother even with that and put them straight into the dealer shoe. Others, perhaps your casino, put the preshuffled cards directly in a shuffle machine where they are "presumably" shuffled but there is no way you know for sure. Because modern shuffle machines are capable of returning the cards to their original order. The only way to know for sure is to see the cards come to the table. Even if you ask, you can never be sure of the answer. You probably did best playing against old cards and worst playing against new cards.

Vegas is ALL preshuffled and usually shuffled by machine. By my observation all events up to 5iars occur more than normal, 6s can go either way, and 7+s are less than normal. But with preshuffled, all events up to 5s occur closer to normal than with regular cards. That pretty much rules out both NOR and SAP and, in my opinion, 4d also because all 3 of those are bias systems. Up to now the guys have been doing best playing NOR 2Hi (highest bet is 2).

Vegas has two game types, touch and no touch. NOR cares a lot which you play. MDB doesn't care at all. Of course touch games are new cards every shoe. No touch - most casinos change the cards every 4 hours. They aren't stupid.

See, MDB is a different animal altogether. It is desiged for BOTH preshuffled and regular cards - it simply doesn't care. It does not function on biases of any kind at all. No, it won't win as much as NOR does with regular cards BUT it will win more consistently with either kind of cards. One of the members just wrote me this morning that BaS40 alone won 29 out of 30 shoes. After playing solely BaS40 for 5 years, his report doesn't surprise me at all.

See we are trading units for consistency. We only average 6 or 7 (Norm averaged 6) but we win far more consistenly. We bet far less than NOR and win more consistently. That combination allows us to increase our unit size far quicker than we could ever hope for with NOR. And it also lets us play preshuffled cards. If we can do all that we might as well have a million dollar plan. All it takes is consistently winning 5 units. And all that takes is study and practice. It is far simpler than NOR once you get used to it and each of the 3 systems is 100% mechanical.

We already have twice as many MDB private members as we planned on. As it proves itself, well, what would you do about the price???

Ellis

I personally believe what you are offering to teach us here at the BTC community is a major survival mechanism to combat Casinos at their own game. Let's put this into perspective. We are speaking in terms of striving for an ultimate goal of accumulating a million dollars..and all you are asking for is $150. 00 USD As many of my fellow members here, I also see Baccarat as a BUSINESS. How many businesses can you start up with such vast potential for a very low price in return? This is a no brainer!

Joey

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Ellis

I personally believe what you are offering to teach us here at the BTC community is a major survival mechanism to combat Casinos at their own game. Let's put this into perspective. We are speaking in terms of striving for an ultimate goal of accumulating a million dollars..and all you are asking for is $150. 00 USD As many of my fellow members here, I also see Baccarat as a BUSINESS. How many businesses can you start up with such vast potential for a very low price in return? This is a no brainer!

Joey

It sounds too good to be true, doesn't it? For everyone's sake, I sure hope not....

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Thanks Ellis for the reply.

However i think a different ball game is occuring at my local casino.

You are right, I need to speak to the employee of the casino to get those info. And I need to get the right and consistent answer.

As for certain days, I could play NOR and win comfortably as much 40 to 50u in 7 to 10 shoes. But in certain days of the week, i find the card prep looks more like preshuffled, which perhaps S40M1 would be able to overcome.

I based this by observing the events in the shoes.

Some days it is just less of 3s 4s in a shoes but certain days there are just loads of them with sporadic 1s.

Somedays the 2s appears 5 to 6 times a row is between the others event (S40 M2 wins here) whereas on other days, you see some 3s and 4s between the 2s event. (S40M1 prog within a prog 0123 would have won here).

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Just this Friday, I saw some shoes with 8s and 10s some even with 12s appearing either in the early stage or in the middle of the shoes, where on Wednesday and Thursday it is a less common occurrence.

Someday the 1s and 2s are pouring like rain is some of the shoes (long zz runs) but other days it is just like some stuck in your piss pipe.

Those bastards are playing it smart, guess I have to play it like you said Ellis, tough days, just exit the casino.

And I would say this to the good days, Just milk them!!!

Hehe

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Just this Friday, I saw some shoes with 8s and 10s some even with 12s appearing either in the early stage or in the middle of the shoes, where on Wednesday and Thursday it is a less common occurrence.

Someday the 1s and 2s are pouring like rain is some of the shoes (long zz runs) but other days it is just like some stuck in your piss pipe.

Those bastards are playing it smart, guess I have to play it like you said Ellis, tough days, just exit the casino.

And I would say this to the good days, Just milk them!!!

Hehe

If it was that easy the game wouldn't exist. Just gotta take the good shoes and make some cash. Walk away on the bad shoes. Discipline and patience. The game is a processes. It's tough to win but it is possible over the long haul with good money management.

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  • Baccarat Hall of Fame Member

Thought you all might enjoy this shoe from beginning to end played in about 35 minutes start2finish at the Gold Coast in LV

No columns of 20, just the facts ma'am

B1111211132211211222222133111121212121322111211231112

Left out the ties

Was going to stay another shoe, but decided to quit for the day while I was way ahead

Gotta' love the GC

Gotta ' love the +5( ps...I played the whole shoe)

PS....middle of the day and I played this one all by my lonesome...most of the other tables (14 in all) bizzee!

PSS Probably HAVE SEEN IT, but I do not remember six 2iar before...

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S40 M3 yummy. 123 prog or even better 234 345 prog.

I have come across this shoes....rarely. but when it appears....it is a windfall.

The Asians know how to play this shoe well. I have seen 2s appearing like this too with no 4+s.

Ztomsk,

I get your point. Thanks. :)

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Thought you all might enjoy this shoe from beginning to end played in about 35 minutes start2finish at the Gold Coast in LV

No columns of 20, just the facts ma'am

B1111211132211211222222133111121212121322111211231112

Left out the ties

Was going to stay another shoe, but decided to quit for the day while I was way ahead

Gotta' love the GC

Gotta ' love the +5( ps...I played the whole shoe)

PS....middle of the day and I played this one all by my lonesome...most of the other tables (14 in all) bizzee!

PSS Probably HAVE SEEN IT, but I do not remember six 2iar before...

Right, I've seen 11 or 12 2s several times but never in preshuffled cards. However Zebra and I as well as Keith and I have played these super chop shoes against preshuffled cards in Vegas. Certainly a casino would never produce such a shoe on purpose. I'm convinced they are an accident. The casinos are way ahead of us in shuffle technology and shuffle machine technology. But, like all high tech, sometimes they produce accidents - your slip is showing (Reader's Digest) accidents.

Strangly they seem to occur when only one or two players are playing a table??? Maybe they let their guard down???

I had a hand shuffled shoe (regular cards) playing alone at a mini bac table at Foxwood. 5 Banks and 67 Players. I made a fortune simply betting Player.

The dealer was moaning and groaning every hand. So I asked him: "What's your problem, it's not YOUR money." He replied: "You don't understand - They warned me not to use that shuffle - I'll get fired for sure!"

I learned a lot that day: There is a lot more to shuffle technology, by hand or machine, than we realize or understand. Whether BJ or Bac; whether hand shuffled or machine, they can make the cards do almost anything. Consider that they have been examining the outcomes of various shuffles for thousands of shoes daily - and then comparing notes with other casinos. AND, they aren't stupid. But every now and then all this technology backfires. They have what we could call "industrial accidents". And it is just a question of being in the right place at the right time. How, why, who knows? I don't think THEY even know.

I've played hundreds of such shoes in both BJ and Bac - Shoes totally impossible within the bounds of random mathematics. I have only one highly astute explanation after years of Mathematics schooling: Shit happens!

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Thanks Ellis for the reply.

However i think a different ball game is occuring at my local casino.

You are right, I need to speak to the employee of the casino to get those info. And I need to get the right and consistent answer.

As for certain days, I could play NOR and win comfortably as much 40 to 50u in 7 to 10 shoes. But in certain days of the week, i find the card prep looks more like preshuffled, which perhaps S40M1 would be able to overcome.

I based this by observing the events in the shoes.

Some days it is just less of 3s 4s in a shoes but certain days there are just loads of them with sporadic 1s.

Somedays the 2s appears 5 to 6 times a row is between the others event (S40 M2 wins here) whereas on other days, you see some 3s and 4s between the 2s event. (S40M1 prog within a prog 0123 would have won here).

You mean 10123 as you will learn.

DJ, you have one BIG advantage going for you - one that I also use a lot. And I think you are beginning to realize it. There is an advantage to playing a "home casino" - playing the same casino time after time: If you are open minded to it you begin to realize that all casinos have a routine - certain things happen at certain times on certain days.

For instance my home casino is consistently S40 with new cards in the morning. This fades to OTB4L during the day that changes to streak at night after 9PM. It gets so streaky you can just sit there betting Repeats - until they change the cards - which they surely will.

Sometimes at night, all the Asians get up and leave the table. I'm not sure exactly what they are reacting to. But I learned the hard way - it's best to go with them.

The more you learn about a casino's routine, the more you realize they are litterally showing you how to beat them. Watch and learn. Then trust your instincts - they are most likely right.

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I Need your help!

I'm posting this on the NOR forum where hopfully everyone will see it.

I need to send the complete MDB member list to Keith so that the right people have access to the new MDB forum but nobody else.

I've got everything squared away except I'm still missing 5 user names.

Len Parchewsky

Chris Armes

Moro Arakaki

J E Jefferson

Relate Right Inc.

Would each of you five please email me your BTC user name at my private Email address ellis_858@hotmail.com

Thanks

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  • Baccarat Hall of Fame Member
Right, I've seen 11 or 12 2s several times but never in preshuffled cards. However Zebra and I as well as Keith and I have played these super chop shoes against preshuffled cards in Vegas. Certainly a casino would never produce such a shoe on purpose. I'm convinced they are an accident. The casinos are way ahead of us in shuffle technology and shuffle machine technology. But, like all high tech, sometimes they produce accidents - your slip is showing (Reader's Digest) accidents.

Strangly they seem to occur when only one or two players are playing a table??? Maybe they let their guard down???

I had a hand shuffled shoe (regular cards) playing alone at a mini bac table at Foxwood. 5 Banks and 67 Players. I made a fortune simply betting Player.

The dealer was moaning and groaning every hand. So I asked him: "What's your problem, it's not YOUR money." He replied: "You don't understand - They warned me not to use that shuffle - I'll get fired for sure!"

I learned a lot that day: There is a lot more to shuffle technology, by hand or machine, than we realize or understand. Whether BJ or Bac; whether hand shuffled or machine, they can make the cards do almost anything. Consider that they have been examining the outcomes of various shuffles for thousands of shoes daily - and then comparing notes with other casinos. AND, they aren't stupid. But every now and then all this technology backfires. They have what we could call "industrial accidents". And it is just a question of being in the right place at the right time. How, why, who knows? I don't think THEY even know.

I've played hundreds of such shoes in both BJ and Bac - Shoes totally impossible within the bounds of random mathematics. I have only one highly astute explanation after years of Mathematics schooling: Shit happens!

This was definitely " being in The Right Place. At the right time"

I had just walked into the casino, took a quick glance at all the tables, and this was the only one nobody was sitting at.

New shoe, I like to play fast, and the best way to play fast is play alone.

And that's what I did. No " table selection" , except for my desire to "play fast, when possible"

Did I just get lucky ? Well, perhaps a bit...

Or was what anyone reading this forum and learning from it might have done? Well, maybe....I also have the advantage ( or maybe dis-advantage) of having played many, many shoes before this one...

Either way, no matter how you look at it, I learned something a long time ago.

I'd rather be good, than lucky.

Why? Because if you are " good" , you don't need a whole lot of luck...But if you are " just lucky", it never lasts for long...

So keep up the good work Ellis...and I wish all of you the best in your Baccarat endeavors.

(And be thankful you have had the good fortune to find this forum ! )

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I Need your help!

I'm posting this on the NOR forum where hopfully everyone will see it.

I need to send the complete MDB member list to Keith so that the right people have access to the new MDB forum but nobody else.

I've got everything squared away except I'm still missing 5 user names.

Len Parchewsky

Chris Armes

Moro Arakaki

J E Jefferson

Relate Right Inc.

Would each of you five please email me your BTC user name at my private Email address ellis_858@hotmail.com

Thanks

Hi Ellis, as signing up a new member(s), I'm still waiting for a reply of a pm I sent you and Keith one week ago.... Regarding issues and question about MDB... Do you not want my money?

Seriously, I'm trying to be nice here, Neither you or Keith have replied...

Look forward to hearing from you.

CC

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