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What exactly are we paying for?


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So rather than me teaching SAP on two different forums at the same time

Which is too time consuming we decided it is better to teach

SAP/RSAP on ONE SAP forum and give MDB members access to that forum.

Hi Ellis, may I ask what we get for paying 200 bucks if MDB players can have access to the SAP/RSAP? Can we request for refund? We paid 200 bucks and got nothing but a mechanical 2hi system that doesnt work and you said your team was working on it and was showing good progress. Then you said 2Hi will not work well for netbetting. Then you said we should do SAP/RSAP. So if MDB players can have access to this, why are we paying for this? I am a MDB player.

We paid for the 2HI in march and it's may now. It's been a long wait and i'm very disappointed. I paid for NOR and MDB and these did not work well at Singapore's casinos(PLEASE DON'T SAY THAT I DID NOT PRACTICE ENOUGH OR I DONT KNOW WHAT IM DOING). You said U2Hi will work because it doesnt care where the shoes come from. So I paid for it hoping for the best but it didnt work!

SO can you tell us what do we get exactly for the 200 bucks.

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So you guys are saying that you don't want to learn SAP/RSAP U2Hi? THAT is what you are paying for.

It replaces Net Bet U2Hi. I've already told you why I made that decision - more than once

Or are you saying the other MDB members should pay $200 if they want to learn SAP?

Maybe you've got a valid point there.

But you are talking to the wrong person.

I just teach.

Keith? It sounds to me like bighorn has a valid point here???

I know the $200 was added for new MDB+ players who join from now on

But what about the existing MDB+ players? Should I remove SAP from the MDB forum?

I think maybe I got us into a Catch 22.

Maybe you guys should discuss in private and let me know.

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I don't mind learning RSAP/SAP if it works well.

I am asking why the current MDB players do not have to pay $200 to learn what we paid for. We paid $200 so we should get something NEW that the current MDB players should not have access to if they dont pay extra right?

IF SAP/RSAP is a replacement to the U2HI I dont see why the current MDB players should benefit from it when they didnt fork out the extra cash to be fair.

Edited by bighorn
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I don't mind learning RSAP/SAP if it works well.

I am asking why the current MDB players do not have to pay $200 to learn what we paid for. We paid $200 so we should get something NEW that the current MDB players should not have access to if they dont pay extra right?

IF SAP/RSAP is a replacement to the U2HI I dont see why the current MDB players should benefit from it when they didnt fork out the extra cash to be fair.

OK, but here's the note I got from Keith:

"The price of MDB was raised to $1799 and eveyone who was in paid so it included MDB and U2Hi"

See, if you had already paid for U2Hi you wouldn't have been contacted again.

I think what he is saying is that all of the existing MDB guys paid - not just you.

And then the new price for MDB+ was increased accordingly. I don't think anybody escaped it as far as I know.

So are you OK with that? Keith has assurred me by phone that everyone is paid in full.

I'd like to get back to teaching it.

I think SAP/RSAP is the better way to bet 2 Hi

But I also think SAP/RSAP makes a good contribution to the MDB+ player

struggling with the question of where best to start his progression.

I'm sure you agree, right?

Edited by Ellis
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I have to tell you , I have been doing SAP/RSAP all day yesterday and today U1D2 as well as my own little aggressive progression. I have not lost yet. I still have a few questions I would like to get answered but it really has the most potential I have seen since MDB.

Kudos Ellis.

OK, but here's the note I got from Keith:

"The price of MDB was raised to $1799 and eveyone who was in paid so it included MDB"

I think what he is saying is that all of the existing MDB guys paid - not just you.

And then the new price for MDB+ was increased accordingly. I don't think anybody escaped it as far as I know.

So are you OK with that? Keith has assurred me by phone that everyone is paid in full.

I'd like to get back to teaching it.

I think SAP/RSAP is the better way to bet 2 Hi

But I also think SAP/RSAP makes a good contribution to the MDB+ player

struggling with the question of where best to start his progression.

I'm sure you agree, right?

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OK, but here's the note I got from Keith:

"The price of MDB was raised to $1799 and eveyone who was in paid so it included MDB and U2Hi"

See, if you had already paid for U2Hi you wouldn't have been contacted again.

I think what he is saying is that all of the existing MDB guys paid - not just you.

And then the new price for MDB+ was increased accordingly. I don't think anybody escaped it as far as I know.

So are you OK with that? Keith has assurred me by phone that everyone is paid in full.

I'd like to get back to teaching it.

I think SAP/RSAP is the better way to bet 2 Hi

But I also think SAP/RSAP makes a good contribution to the MDB+ player

struggling with the question of where best to start his progression.

I'm sure you agree, right?

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Edited by bighorn
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So when U2Hi came out MDB+ players had to pay $200 to gain access

What Ellis is saying is that most MDB+ players did pay this

I would believe that as most MDB+ players have faith in this forum and MDB+ so $200 is worth the investment to them

So that means no MDB+ player should have got access without paying the $200

The price increase to $1799 is an increase of $500 from before.

For that price they get access to U2Hi forum so the $500 covers the increase and the additional U2Hi access

We only payed additional $200 for our loyalty and we don't get charged any increase - that's my interpretation so nobody escaped paying it?

If that's the way it is then I think its fair

The reality is prices go up

Taxes go up

Petrol goes up

A freight company over here the other day said they couldn't justify increasing prices to their customers - guess what their workers turned up for work and were locked out as company was in receivership - couldn't even get their coats and lunchboxes back just told you don't have a job no more.

Bighorn I do feel your pain if you are practising hard and have not had success.

Nobody seems to have worked Singapore out yet but then again nobody has tried really?

Ellis did ask Singapore players to post shoes so he could analyse them and I didn't see any response?

member 'miclus83' posted some shoes and way2fast confirmed they were MDB+ friendly.

If Singapore players feel that hard done by could they post some shoes as Ellis asked with times of day / casino's etc

Could this U2Hi forum (now SAP/RSAP) be the perfect place to determine how to best beat Singapore shoes?

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Ellis was saying some MDB members do not have access to this U2Hi forum. If they paid the $200, why are they not in? As far as I understand, current mdb members do not have to pay extra.

sap/rsap is a replacement for the U2Hi we paid for. If Ellis is gonna teach at a new sap/rsap forum and let ALL mdb members have access, it is unfair for people who paid the $200. It's like you paid for a dinner at a restaurant and the owner of the restaurant allows some strangers to come and share the food with you!

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Ellis was saying some MDB members do not have access to this U2Hi forum. If they paid the $200, why are they not in? As far as I understand, current mdb members do not have to pay extra.

sap/rsap is a replacement for the U2Hi we paid for. If Ellis is gonna teach at a new sap/rsap forum and let ALL mdb members have access, it is unfair for people who paid the $200. It's like you paid for a dinner at a restaurant and the owner of the restaurant allows some strangers to come and share the food with you!

Hmm, well I assumed some MDB members didn't have access because they were asking how to do a SAP count which I had just taught on the 2Hi forum.

They may have access but don't know where to look. I don't know but I'll check with Keith.

Meanwhile we won't give 2hi access to MDB members unless they have paid the $200.

I don't have access to who paid for what.

MDB+ players are doing very well as is - in fact it appears they are already doing the best of everybody even W/O the aid of SAP.

I think MDB+ players would be better off aided by SAP but I'll stop teaching it there.

Meanwhile SAP/RSAP is already being played very well by some of our sharper 2Hi members according to their trip reports.

That's what we should be concentrating on on the 2hi forum.

You and dinosour are speaking as if that wasn't already going on.

But that is what you both should be studying.

Well, at least I know you paid - I don't know about dinosaur. He says he's waiting but I don't know what that means.

Waiting for what? The instructions are already posted.

The guys are already playing - and winning.

All that is left for me to do is comment on their play.

If there are any MDB+ guys who haven't already joined the 2 Hi forum, they can do so if they wish.

I'll leave that forum alone. They've been doing well on their own anyway.

way2fast is doing a good job.

I don't even know which forum we are posting on here

I'm guessing the MDB forum but it doesn't say.

Thanks Brad! Not sure if that clears anything up but good attempt anyway.

I think what bighorn is saying is there are a bunch of MDB players who didn't pay the extra $200 for SAP/RSAP.

He may be right. I don't know. Neither of us has access to that info.

Therefore he's saying don't teach any kind of SAP on the MDB forum

and don't allow MDB members on the 2Hi forum unless they've paid.

OK, I think he's right so I'll just post on the 2Hi forum from now on.

Except, I'm thinking it might be a good idea if somebody tells the MDB guys

that I'm teaching SAP only on the 2Hi forum

And then we can change the name of the 2Hi forum to the MDB+SAP/RSAP forum

Which they can join or not - whichever they choose.

But I'm thinking whatever I do, somebody is going to complain.

That's about the only thing I know for sure.

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I think MDB+ players would be better off aided by SAP but I'll stop teaching it there.

Ellis, I think we all get the concept that MDB+ does better with shoes without bias, and that SAP counts used in hindsight will clearly show what, if any bias existed in the shoe. It sounds like you have specific ideas how SAP can provide an early signal which could have a positive impact on the MDB+ results. I hope you intend to comment on this soon, as requested on the thread in the MDB forum.

I'll leave that forum alone. They've been doing well on their own anyway.

way2fast is doing a good job.

I don't even know which forum we are posting on here

I'm guessing the MDB forum but it doesn't say.

You are going to leave the MDB+ forum alone? Is MDB+ yet ANOTHER successful system you intend to abandoned (like 4D) in the interest of something new and untested?

BTW, this is the 2Hi forum.

Therefore he's saying don't teach any kind of SAP on the MDB forum

and don't allow MDB members on the 2Hi forum unless they've paid.

SAP has been taught, and discussed throughout BTC for MANY years -- probably long before bighorn came onto the scene. Does it really impact bighorn's learning if you let someone in free? Talk about tripping over dollars to pick up pennies! Time for some to get over it FFS.

But I'm thinking whatever I do, somebody is going to complain.

That's about the only thing I know for sure.

Yup!

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Now Elis what you should do please,is posting different types of shoes with play by play and explanations of each bet

I think that would clear up many things for everybody. Thank you

Agreed!! Ellis says the rules are clearly posted, but so far I have only seen the same SAP theory from years ago. Some exampleas on exactly how it is being used would be great.

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Agreed!! Ellis says the rules are clearly posted, but so far I have only seen the same SAP theory from years ago. Some exampleas on exactly how it is being used would be great.

Whew, first thanks for bailing me out John. Yes, I have some examples in mind I've been trying to get to.

One I find very interesting that you posted a week ago or so.

It was something like 2111112111112 or something like that

But I'll look it up so I get it and your remarks about it exact.

I totally agreed with your comments about it and your decision.

What I would like to demonstrate is how SAP would arrive at your same decision and back you up.

And I also have some other examples in mind.

Usually RSAP will arrive at the same decision that MDB+ arrives at - but not every time:

BECAUSE SAP always considers the ENTIRE shoe thus far while MDB+ is often reacting only to recent information.

There will be times where MDB+ is cautioning you to delay your prog and rightfully so

While at the same time SAP is saying: "Hey buddy, you are playing the wrong freaking system!"

I've tried to get SAP to stop swearing but it's no use.

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SAP has been taught, and discussed throughout BTC for MANY years -- probably long before bighorn came onto the scene. Does it really impact bighorn's learning if you let someone in free? Talk about tripping over dollars to pick up pennies! Time for some to get over it FFS.

way2fast, I respect you alot, but does it impact your learning if Ellis don't let someone in free? I know money is less important to you than anyone else, since you are so successful playing MDB. But this forum is a business to Ellis, and it should be fair to everyone. I assumed that you meant if someone were to share the teachings in this forum to some strangers, it does not impact our learning so we should get over it.

Now, if Ellis let those who did not pay learn this U2HI replacement strategy (SAP/RSAP), who would pay for a new strategy in future, not know if the new strategy would be free for all in time to come?

SAP/RSAP is supposed to be a replacement to the U2HI so in my opinion, only those who had paid for it should have access to it.

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What I'm waiting for is this Ellis, sorry for the confusion

Oh, well I already posted a good one on the 2hi forum but I'm not clear who can see that forum and who can't.

I was about to post it on the MDB forum but then....

But I don't mind posting some play by plays - if nobody complains.

See, on the 2Hi forum I'm teaching how to play SAP/RSAP as a self contained 2Hi system that is also Universal

(can be played against both Regular and Factory cards)

I'm leaving you the option of betting it 1Hi or 2Hi or even U1D2 which is my personal preference.

Whereas:

On the MDB+ forum my plan was to teach how SAP can be used as an aid to MDB+.

But then I ran into a conflict of interest.

I think from a teaching perspective it was a good plan.

Maybe from a money perspective - not so much.

But way2fast is right, I'm not going to abandon the MDB+ forum.

Keith has to settle this. I can't.

It is already settled for future members but for loyal previous MDB+ and 2Hi members, I see their point

But I can't let that effect my teaching. I gotta teach what I gotta teach where I need to

and leave settling all this money stuff up to Keith IF, in fact, it's not already settled.

But he's busy right now working on my notifications. I haven't received any since May 2.

Makes it pretty hard to teach when I don't know who posted what, where.

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when will MDB+SAP be out Ellis? Any ETA?

Well I already posted the basics. From there it will be steered by the questions and comments - like the ones I'm getting here.

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Ellis, I think we all get the concept that MDB+ does better with shoes without bias, and that SAP counts used in hindsight will clearly show what, if any bias existed in the shoe. It sounds like you have specific ideas how SAP can provide an early signal which could have a positive impact on the MDB+ results. I hope you intend to comment on this soon, as requested on the thread in the MDB forum.

I seem to have gotten a little waylaid trying to get back to MDB+ and the lack of notifications isn't helping.

You are correct in what you say but I want to paint a bigger picture than that. I don't think we ever explored the full potential of SAP.

Yes, we played it successfully as a system and I'll teach that but I don't think that is the best use of SAP. I think we are missing the boat.

SAP is too important than to only play it as a system. I like your term "early warning system".

When we walk into a casino, our first question should be: What is this casino up to today? What is their strategy? Because they ALWAYS have one and they are forever changing it. THAT is what keeps their profits so high. We need to know exactly what their strategy is right now at THIS table right here, right now. AND we need to know precisely when they change that strategy and exactly what they changed it to.

"This was a good MDB+ casino last time." That's not good enough! What it was is not important. What's important is what it is right now!

SAP can tell us that with dead accuracy. We just haven't been listening. Maybe it's still MDB+??? But maybe it isn't. What if 2s are MC and 3s are 2nd high. Sure we can adjust MDB+ to that. But better yet, maybe what we SHOULD be looking at, maybe the better question is:

What mode should we be playing OTB4L in??? WHAT is going to give us our highest hit rate right now at this table right here. SAP knows! We need to learn how to glean the information out of it. Are you catching my drift?

You are going to leave the MDB+ forum alone? Is MDB+ yet ANOTHER successful system you intend to abandoned (like 4D) in the interest of something new and untested?

MDB+ is the best idea I ever had - the highest hit rate of all time. I'll never abandon it. On the contrary, I'll make it our flag ship.

BTW, this is the 2Hi forum.

Yep, and YOU are on it. bighorn is not the only MDB player here.

SAP has been taught, and discussed throughout BTC for MANY years -- probably long before bighorn came onto the scene. Does it really impact bighorn's learning if you let someone in free? Talk about tripping over dollars to pick up pennies! Time for some to get over it FFS.

Right, and those members paid to learn SAP - just as bighorn is paying to learn it now. That's only fair.

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Elis this thread is called 2hi universal net bet baccarat forum., not MDB .It is not our fault if this forum is disorganized . If it was a free forum one can forgive but it is not.

People on this forum have paid to learn universal 2hi netbetting system 2 months ago. it was a failure , you replaced it by SAP/RSAP. OK! For the moment , you just explained us basic SAP that one have found on this forum for years.

You must understand that people are getting impatient and annoyed. We just want a clear and precise explanation how to use SAP/RSAP with example shoes, and play by play.

And MDB players will learn MDB SAP or whatever on their forum !

Thank you !

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way2fast, I respect you alot, but does it impact your learning if Ellis don't let someone in free? I know money is less important to you than anyone else, since you are so successful playing MDB. But this forum is a business to Ellis, and it should be fair to everyone. I assumed that you meant if someone were to share the teachings in this forum to some strangers, it does not impact our learning so we should get over it.

Now, if Ellis let those who did not pay learn this U2HI replacement strategy (SAP/RSAP), who would pay for a new strategy in future, not know if the new strategy would be free for all in time to come?

SAP/RSAP is supposed to be a replacement to the U2HI so in my opinion, only those who had paid for it should have access to it.

hey bighorn, I intended no disrespect. I guess the simple way I see it is if you are satisfied you are getting what you paid for, why should it matter or you care if Ellis "decides" to give that same information to someone else for free? Now Ellis didn't decide to do that, and I undestand that may not be a great or fair business practice, but if some are getting free access to this forum, than that is what happened. Ellis can fix it, or not -- its his business.

Now if your point was that you are not satisfied with what you are getting for your payment, then I think you would of had a legitimate issue. Let's be frank -- U2Hi never should have sold. It was marketed as a fully tested and proven way to beat any shoe. It wasn't even close to that or ready, but once the word went out that it would be taught at a seminar, something had to be delivered. No one is perfect. Ellis and Keith are not only the best at what they do, but they are also honest, honerable and sincere. So Ellis is committed to delivering something that works for the payment made by members. Yes, its taking longer than some want. Members can sit and wait for it to be spoon fed, rule by rule. Or members can start studying SAP (many years of discussion in the forum) and carefully going through the info and examples already shown -- then when the "rules" come out the member's knowledge will be so much greater and they will actually understand -- which is far more important to success than just learning. It's a cliche, but true -- you will get out what you are willing to put in. Those who keep asking "when" without taking some iniative themselves? best of luck to them. Rant over.

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