# I have been a lurker for awhile. Do you think people will abuse the new app?

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Do you think there will  be swarms of people doing this and thus taking down any advantage.

I know there were like  pro blackjack teams years ago.

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A good question to ponder.
Blackjack has always been attractive to professional players and ‘team play’ due to the mathematical advantage afforded through card counting.  In a 6 deck blackjack game there are 312 cards, and each card has a corresponding value.  Small cards have a +ve value and large cards (pictures and 10’s) will have a minus or -ve value. 7, 8, 9’s are normally classed as neutral and have a value of zero. In play, you are looking for a higher +ve count, which indicate more small cards have come out in play, leaving more ‘high value cards’ in the deck, thus more opportunity to be dealt a hand of 20 for example.  A half to 1 or more decks will be cut before play commences.  You have to play every hand, so accurate card counting will provide you will opportunities to increase your bet and win.  There are so many variables applied to serious team play ranging from altered card values to shuffle tracking, so as to identify where ‘high card value’ clumps are within the deck, and then bet accordingly.
The single most important difference with blackjack and baccarat relates to ‘card value’.  In blackjack the picture card has a value of 10 points, so 2 x 10’s will give you 20, which is in most all cases a winning hand.  In ‘baccarat’ the picture card and 10’s have a value of zero.  Card counting is not effective in baccarat IMO, although there are many books and theories that have a different opinion.  Baccarat is normally played with 8 decks, another disadvantage to card counting in baccarat.
Kevin has developed 4D/5D which IMO is the equivalent of ‘card counting’ (bias) in baccarat.  Just as ‘card counting’ in blackjack is hard work to get back a low percentage profit, the same applies to 4D/5D.  Kevin has stated on more than 1 occasion that the majority of people will not do the work.  The casinos are only interested in ‘consistent’ winners.  Thousands of ‘wanna be’ card counters lose all their money and more.  4D/5D players can follow down this track also if the work is not put in.
BTC Suite 7D offers a fantastic tool to use with 4D/5D, and with practice be able to identify the biases that happen in 66% of  shoes.  As we know some shoes cannot be beaten by any type of system/method.
XDN’s new labelling combined with the ‘hot’ bars will help identify possible biases quickly, so you will have more time for analysis and bet selection.
Players being players of course, will start to look for short cuts and less work to do, so getting familiar with and understanding what 7D is telling us, will be important in our final bet selection.
Aiming for 2-3 units with 7D looks to be a very attractive proposition.
A book published (limited and controlled) many years ago called ‘Advanced Baccarat’ by John Cunningham, talked about ‘team play’ in baccarat.  Members of the team would sit at different baccarat tables waiting for ‘certain plays’ to appear and then bet accordingly.  The book contained 7 or 8 different strategies (plays) to bet on when they occurred.  7D will also identify different biases in a shoe at different times, so opportunities will occur, that could be taken advantage of.
H

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• 2 weeks later...
On 12/17/2021 at 7:03 AM, Flguy said:

Do you think there will  be swarms of people doing this and thus taking down any advantage.

Highly unlikely.  The "swarms" would have to be tens of thousands of players causing the casinos to "notice" a significant drop in Baccarat revenues over a period of time.  And connect an even higher unlikely situation where all those players are staring at a phone or tablet and an even higher unlikely possibility that the casino cameras can identify the BTC App as being the reason all of these tens of thousands of players are winning.

I know I'm being a little sarcastic and I don't intend on being a smart ass because the forum promotes open discussions and welcomes all questions.  That being said, whenever we talk about whether or not something we do or have somehow creates an advantage in a big way, I encourage a drive down the Las Vegas strip.

The casinos know the mindset of a typical gambler and they're not using an App. This is my opinion, of course.

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• Users

I know Vegas is not scared of the majority of gamblers.  It is the few that can beat them. The very few.

I think as long as the "whales" continue to feed the majority of profits for  the game, the hit and run strategy

that Keith recommends will survive.

I lived in Vegas for years and most people just don't want to walk away a winner.

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8 hours ago, Flguy said:

I lived in Vegas for years and most people just don't want to walk away a winner.

Figuy,

Because they live far away, you do not.

Be a Tracker and Hunt wisely!

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Why would ANYONE not want to walk away a winner?  Without a win goal, why even play at all?  Some things I'll NEVER understand.  And that's ONE of them!

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Win 2 to 3 units per session then leave the table. A lot of people look for that big win. You might win big sometimes, but you cannot win big consistently.

" It is better to win a little a lot, than a lot a little "

Keep track of your play and you will see that those small unit wins add up. As you accumulate units, increase your unit size, and watch the money add up too. Try to think of units and not the money ( I know it's hard to do but just do it, I have a hard time before I increase my unit size ). 2 units of \$25 is \$50,  2 units of \$200 is \$400!

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OK I get it now ---- I should have said "Why should anyone not want to be a winner?" instead of "not want to walk away a winner?"  Because just like you said, the way to consistent winnings is to "win a little a lot.  Not a lot a little"  That's a GOOD quote.  So True!  Keep increasing that unit size as you accumulate units.  AMEN!  That WORKS!  I am living proof!!

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28 minutes ago, barneypip said:

OK I get it now ---- I should have said "Why should anyone not want to be a winner?" instead of "not want to walk away a winner?"  Because just like you said, the way to consistent winnings is to "win a little a lot.  Not a lot a little"  That's a GOOD quote.  So True!  Keep increasing that unit size as you accumulate units.  AMEN!  That WORKS!  I am living proof!!

That quote comes from a professional Baccarat player named Jason Sample.

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12 hours ago, barneypip said:

Why would ANYONE not want to walk away a winner?  Without a win goal, why even play at all?  Some things I'll NEVER understand.  And that's ONE of them!

They did not reach their win goal. After traveling 51/2 hours.

Be a Tracker and Hunt wisely!

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7 hours ago, barneypip said:

OK I get it now ---- I should have said "Why should anyone not want to be a winner?" instead of "not want to walk away a winner?"  Because just like you said, the way to consistent winnings is to "win a little a lot.  Not a lot a little"  That's a GOOD quote.  So True!  Keep increasing that unit size as you accumulate units.  AMEN!  That WORKS!  I am living proof!!

Now were talking that is correct.

Be a Tracker and Hunt wisely!

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• 5 weeks later...

I would get up a few units and keep going , it was fun until suddenly down 8 units ugh. I was asked this question   "Do you want to have Fun or Make Money.

You are correct Hit and Run.

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On 12/31/2021 at 3:03 PM, GerryM said:

That quote comes from a professional Baccarat player named Jason Sample.

Correct, I started following him before I heard about the BTC.

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• Baccarat Hall of Fame Member

Bones and Scott here in Vegas / here in town…

It’s all ‘Dirty Harry ‘

( we play together tomorrow)

so? R U felling lucky?

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• Baccarat Hall of Fame Member

Scott, fixing’ ’ to get us all over the Derived Roads

9 am. Tuesday.

I am showing up.

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On 12/31/2021 at 9:12 AM, mookie said:

Highly unlikely.  The "swarms" would have to be tens of thousands of players causing the casinos to "notice" a significant drop in Baccarat revenues over a period of time.  And connect an even higher unlikely situation where all those players are staring at a phone or tablet and an even higher unlikely possibility that the casino cameras can identify the BTC App as being the reason all of these tens of thousands of players are winning.

I know I'm being a little sarcastic and I don't intend on being a smart ass because the forum promotes open discussions and welcomes all questions.  That being said, whenever we talk about whether or not something we do or have somehow creates an advantage in a big way, I encourage a drive down the Las Vegas strip.

The casinos know the mindset of a typical gambler and they're not using an App. This is my opinion, of course.

I fully agree with you Mookie,

When the casinos see people winning using the app, they will immediately tap you and you are gone from that casino permanently.

Are there any statistics which shows what the average H.R is using the app?  How many shoes can you win per 100 shoes and what the H.R would be.

I think this information would be vital for all members.

Still best way to play is without any score card, but to do that you must understand what you are doing. To do that it's practice, practice and more practice.

Then you can go to the casino without any cards, or other apps and play like any mug punter without causing any suspicion and be consistent winners

I do that and I know 3 other players who also play like that.

We win between 85- 90% of the shoes we play. We all flat bet between \$100 to \$1000 per hand.

If you want to be a full time professional this is what you should aspire to do.

Cheers

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Winbac - I'm ALMOST there.  The only reason I use a scorecard is because many times a "tie" takes up an extra square on the toteboard, making it difficult for me  to simply scan across it and see how many Ps or Bs are in a column.  That tie gets in the way and can make it look like a run went longer than it really did.  It's an easy mistake for my little brain to make.  I can also get screwed up when a toteboard only goes down 6 spaces, and a run goes longer than that and the toteboard starts going sideways.  A few of those alternating long runs in a row can really make it hard to see what the shoe has done -- especially if there are ties in there too.  On my scorecard, I don't log the ties.  They mean NOTHING to me.  Plus, I'm able to log 8  Bs or Ps in a row before having to go sideways.  And lastly, I keep a scorecard so I have a permanent record of my play.

My hit rate is in the upper 50s but with good money management, I too am able to win around 80% of the shoes I play.  (anywhere from "barely winning" to a "major win".  A win is a win!)  I'm also a flat bettor of yellows.  I can't play fulltime because the closest casino is 160 miles away, but those yellow chips allow me to enjoy a fulltime income while "working" only part-time.  (averaging a 2-night stay about once every 2 to 3 weeks)

BTC members reading this already know I'm not just slinging bull here, because many are enjoying equal success.  Quite a few do considerably better than me!!

Those of you reading this who are not BTC members, let me say this.  Had it not been for BTC, I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that I would NOT be enjoying anywhere near this degree of success.  Join the club!!!  You'll work your tail off learning how to play the right way...but MAN will it be WORTRH IT!!!

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I do enjoy your posts barnrypip because you are so down to earth.  The facts are the facts.  If you are in the club, you can learn how to play Baccarat well, to the point where it can be a job if you put your mind to it.  There is no other job where can work the hours you want, when you want, and get paid any amount you desire.  We have ‘smart phones’, ‘smart TV’s’, ‘smart gadget’, that all cost you money. Betting ‘smart’ will make you money, and this is where the forum stands out from the rest.  Of course the above is not easy; you have to want it.  I love the yellow chips comments above, because it shows everyone that it can be done.  Thanks for the post barneypip.
H

Edited by Hellboy
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On 2/1/2022 at 3:41 PM, barneypip said:

Winbac - I'm ALMOST there.  The only reason I use a scorecard is because many times a "tie" takes up an extra square on the toteboard, making it difficult for me  to simply scan across it and see how many Ps or Bs are in a column.  That tie gets in the way and can make it look like a run went longer than it really did.  It's an easy mistake for my little brain to make.  I can also get screwed up when a toteboard only goes down 6 spaces, and a run goes longer than that and the toteboard starts going sideways.  A few of those alternating long runs in a row can really make it hard to see what the shoe has done -- especially if there are ties in there too.  On my scorecard, I don't log the ties.  They mean NOTHING to me.  Plus, I'm able to log 8  Bs or Ps in a row before having to go sideways.  And lastly, I keep a scorecard so I have a permanent record of my play.

My hit rate is in the upper 50s but with good money management, I too am able to win around 80% of the shoes I play.  (anywhere from "barely winning" to a "major win".  A win is a win!)  I'm also a flat bettor of yellows.  I can't play fulltime because the closest casino is 160 miles away, but those yellow chips allow me to enjoy a fulltime income while "working" only part-time.  (averaging a 2-night stay about once every 2 to 3 weeks)

BTC members reading this already know I'm not just slinging bull here, because many are enjoying equal success.  Quite a few do considerably better than me!!

Those of you reading this who are not BTC members, let me say this.  Had it not been for BTC, I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that I would NOT be enjoying anywhere near this degree of success.  Join the club!!!  You'll work your tail off learning how to play the right way...but MAN will it be WORTRH IT!!!

Hi Barnetpip     I know what you mean about your little brain having trouble comprehending. I have the same problem with mine. Lol

Fortunately at our casino every tie is shown as a small stroke inside the last P or B circle. so the sequence is not disturbed. Your H.R is excellent.

If you can average over 5u/shoe you are up there with the best. congratulations.

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Thanks, Winbac!  I never play a full shoe - get out at -2 or +3.  (excepting runs, which I'll stay with until they buck me)  If I put my partial shoe records together to make full shoes and then compute the average profit per shoe, it's about 4u.  Gettin' there.....  Love this game!   And love BTC!

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