CdnChamer

ONLY 7 signed up???? C'mon people, are you not interested in earning more units / $$$$ ? On the other hand, you can be very patient and struggling while looking online to find what the real pros know instead of sucking it up and enrolled in the seminar and make money sooner.. As for me, I'm not giving up this info anytime soon. I hope this will turn out to be a successful webinar. CC

yup! I'm signed up as well, unfortunately, I will have to watch it after the fact because I am traveling.... on NOR+ winnings of course! Me?... << anxious, but being patient. CC

Oh yeah.... Counts are quite important and you'll even find this more important when combining NOR+ with 3D and 4D counts. CC

You're correct Ellis, I have been busy with 4D and contributing to 4D discussion on regular basis. I have played M2 on most of my starts except OTB4L with mode 3 and this has always been difficult for many players at the beginning of a shoe especially with immediate drawdown... Frustrating. I certainly hope the new method will correct a lot of this, look forward to your new research results. CC

Whoa!!! Slowdown buddy, Ellis's needs more time to count up hus winnings from his last trip to the casino! Yes I'm interested as well with a little bit less enthusiasm CC

Sounds good Ellis, any particular date in mind? Fee? CC

Well , after testing over 25 shoes with 4D method, I decided to go down to my local Casino and play it live. I'll tell you, this takes patience and more brain power and time to record and interpret. If you miss a bet you just have to just accept it but I know that in time I will be able to do this even faster. Played Friday night, sat down and started to record about 17 decisions prior to placing my first bet, I managed to win +3 units in less than 15 mins and used 123 4 Prog with max 3 unit bet. I am not using large bet method as Ellis has spoken of because I am testing so this not a confirmed method yet. Played Saturday night for 20 mins with +5 units only lost one bet so max 2 unit bet with Prog. The female Pitt boss was hanging over my shoulder 80% of the time I was there and was astounded that; A) I'm not playing same winning system as before (NOR+). now playing entirely different system and betting not as often and winning.... She was very curious what I was writing Down I don't title my columns so there is just a string of numbers on my sheet with 4D. She alerted the dealer as I pushed my winnings forward to cash out and definitely knew I walked off "A Winner" As I said I am playing with small units because we are still in the early stage proving 4D's accuracy. I find that interpretation of the numbers requires a keen eye of past numbers not only with jail break out points but spotting the resistance points / numbers as I have noticed that they bounce off previous highs and lows similar to stock charts. The 4D column developers repeatable patterns and 3D work in sync on some plays, therefore it reflects the appearance of a mechanical system but not all decisions are made from same number columns. IMHO, interpretation of 4D requires skillful detection of observations noted above. I hope my input has been helpful as I continue to test at home as well as live play Your feedback is most welcome. CC

I found the main key is discipline, walk away with a decent win and be disciplined enough to walk away at your stop loss level. There's always another shoe to play to make up for your losses, I know this can be difficult to grasp as the mind, fear, and greed are our worst enemies. I personally don't play a complete shoe and consistently walk away with moderate gains that continue to build over time at far better rate of return than most aggressive investments will return. My biggest fear is losing my capital, therefore my motto is "preservation of Capital is Priority" This is why I set stop losses even when I am up units, ie I don't let my session roll drop below sett unit / win levels. I have dealers and other players ask me why I leave the table?... without losing my last or large bet..... My usual response is; I've taken my fair share of winnings from this table, it's enough! That's all I need. I believe that this separates a greedy gambler and an intelligent disciplined Baccarat Pro. What really boggles my mind is the fact that so many players watch me win consistently, that I wonder why they don't adapt to my good habits.... I always arrive at the same answer, Greed, and lack of discipline resulting to lack of control. Play smart, be a winner, play like a pro. CC

Hey Ellis, I'm going to put in my two cents here, I think I told you about this site about 5 years ago, let's Talk Winning http://www.letstalkwinning.com It's Izak Matatya's site where he has many systems for sale not only for Baccarat but also craps, BJ, roulette stock market etc. He I'd Canadian and lives in / near Montreal. His most famous Baccarat creation is Infallible Baccarat System where I believe has high betting units and if I'm correct, plays only on Player side... I'm not 100% on this but that's all I can remember. http://www.letstalkwinning.com/IBS7.htm Looks like he has a new system called CYL2 (Catch you Later) Baccarat System Version 2. http://www.letstalkwinning.com/CYL2.htm He is good at marketing his products and puts on a big sale around Christmas time and New Year's by sending email s to all members of his Forum and previous customers. I have not visited the forum in years. Anyhow, there is my input, I neither own these systems and don't endorse them but they are out there. CC

Actually...... it's really worth more than $1,000.00 and for the $600.00 that you do pay, you get far more than just a manual. You become a member of an elite group of Baccarat players that (in my opinion) are the most consistent winners in the world. This membership comes with more than just a manual, you will get up to date techniques and improvements as members collaborate and share ideas in the private NOR members forum about table observations so we can hone our skills. Is there Luck involved?,.. sure there is.. but, to get luck you need skill….. to play without skill, you depend on luck, is luck consistent? NO ! The NOR method is something that the casinos have never seen and pit bosses and dealers are amazed and shake their heads as they see someone like me win consistently as I win most every shoe I play. In fact; two dealers have asked me to teach them how to play my style and others are intrigued by how I keep my scorecard. Over the last year my shoe winning average is 87%, yes, I keep records. NOR is “NOT” a mechanical system as we know that all mechanical systems fail badly. Once you obtain the knowledge of NOR, you can evaluate any shoe in less than a minute and know precisely what to bet on the first hand you play knowing that you have an advantage to walk away with winnings. The shoe actually talks to you.. sounds crazy eh? But it works At $600 for the NOR Manual and membership, It’s a BARGAIN! DON’T BE CHEAP….. Now Buck Up! CC

Switching can be challenging and takes a good eye to recognize when to act correctly. With practice I have switched up to 3 x's in a shoe but very rarely done so. Last night I hit the shoe from F2 Heaven,,,, stated out OTB4L. And after quick -4 OR count I switched to F2 on next run. Get this. .... 18 Bank in a row! I won every one of them! Thanks to MOR+ strategy CC

That's what I was hearing all morning at a local casino, except me, I was saying... Oh Yaaaaa! OTB4L was working fabulously. I used to have difficulty with OTB4L because its complexity OTR modes etc. compared to S40 & F2 & F3, but now enjoy playing OTB4L method the most now as it works very well at my local casinos. The dealer was amazed how I was winning 5+ hands iar in 3 occasions during the shoe I played. He asked Ihow I arrive at my decisions and I told it it was quite simple.... Follow your plan. The dealers ask me what other casinos I play in locally as I know for fact that they wish to sit and play along side me one day, but they need to be careful about their discussion with players in their own casino. Great work everyone. CC

The shoes that Norm posted are a great practice learning tool especially the format that was used. Thanks. As I mentioned in another thread, My local casino shuffles the cards even in early , mid, shoe if no players are at the table. You're right Ellis, this is very favorable to OTB4L & S40. I have recently had great success with S40 but have changed to OTB4L to start off my shoes and now doing better than before. So far, I have not had to switch out of OTB4L and now have a good handle on M1 - M2 - and M3 adjustments. On my scorecard I keep it as simple as possible without using "m2' or M3" notes. The bets I place OTR with are written in RED and my running win/loss count is in Blue for up, red for negative. The players and dealers are puzzled and I like it that way. Thanks to all here, we are becoming an "Elite Secret Baccarat Society" Ha!

Gee Ellis, that's been rough on you, and thanks for your great work here and keep your good health. "We are Family" CC

That would be good bit ya know, I get an appetite while out of the home and she's a pretty darn good cook CC

Sadly to say but in 25 years from now Izak may be six feet under by then CC

Guess I missed that mode 1 but during development of twister I do recall that you and came to realize that at that time there needed to be two different type of play to bring us in sync with the shoe but that was when twister was a mechanical system. I much prefer NOR with counts and allows my mind to be somewhat creative to interpret the shoe therefore adjusting the decision instead of diving into a losing streak just because a mech system tells you to bet a certain way. Yah I went to the casino last night on way home enough time to play one shoe, didn't get to place my first bet til hand 29 as result of getting my counts updated and wait to get a spot at the table. It was a bit tough at start but managed to squeeze out 4 units by hand 59 with 11.87% PA so I picked up and cashed out made it home without the wife knowing. He He He .... Thanks to NOR I have the confidence to pull off a short session. CC

Nice post Ellis, I think the "curve fit" to Zumma is a huge mistake and in past when I see statements to beat Zumma I t shoes I garret clear from their system. Ha Ha... I have found this all too many times Let's Talk Winning Forum as more like I call it... "Let's Talk Loosing". H Ha Amateurs! CC

Gee Ellis, I didn't realize there was a mode , as a matter of fact I do recall now talking to you 4 years ago about implementing modes going back to Twister. I'm already tweaking the NOR with additional OR count from zero at start of first play and resetting back to +/- 3 after +/- 6 on my secondary OR count and currently find tracking to be a bit of a chore as it is. My target is 10 units or greater per shoe without falling below 10 using a progression bet therefore I stop if the next net risks the 10 unit threshold after achieving 11 unit win or greater. My usual exit point is at range of 33 - 38 th hand with start point range of 6 - 10 th hand from top of the shoe with avg 23% PA So far i am not tracking mode count but progress up to 4 units and if a 4 unit bet is won (seems to happen a lot when placed but rarely place a 4 unit bet), I go back to 2 units and progress to 234 5 but have not needed to go to 5 units as of yet in my testing. So far this is working and I feel confident enough to tackle it in live play but still testing for now to confirm this approach. I have found that your -8 units walk rule is valid as it is an indication of a bad shoe but does take discipline at live play to do. I love the NOR approach and only tweaking it to calm volatility from unit swings by taking into account of primary and secondary OR counts along with SAP count to make decisions how to play next bet. I look at ut this way, primary OR count indicates long term bias and Secondary OR count indicates short term bias swings. I trade stocks as well and it is like using a shorter term moving average with longer term average to project up or down direction of price. If I find that SAP is all even and I am not getting a strong signal from both OR counts, I pass on next bet an reset secondary OR count back to zero at next betting point. If someone else out there could try this I would appreciate any feedback to their success or failure to validate this strategy or any thoughts or suggestions. Thanks, CC

Ha ! Where do I send my winning $$$$'s Ellis? As always your family here respects your intelligence and "yes" we are all here for the same outcome, to be advantage players and withdraw cash from the casinos, at least that's how I see it. On second thought I may keep the winning $$$'s for myself order than my my favorite charity. CC

The shoe data was sent me by a previous baccarat buddy who claimed they are live shoes approx 5 years ago I can assure you that they are not zumma shoes. I don't find the zumma shoes reliable anymore and besides every other baccarat system writer out there curve fits their system to beat it and then claim they have done it ... Yeeeeeeaaahhhhhh. Right ! Bunch BS to me. I can do some testing on recent shoe data as well. CC

Well I played countless shoes tonight on my computer using a secondary OR count and is helpful I did notice the weakness of OBT4L with SAP but the secondary OR helps to Decide When to place the appropriate bet. It seams to work near the early part of the shoe when it crosses zero but I also noticed something else. When the secondary OR count crosses -3 or lower and same for when it crosses +3 you need the shoe becomes volatile and is difficult to determine the movement of patterns as they change that will swing the OR count in either direction. By the time it swings back to zero you have lost to patterns that the systems are weak on. So here is my thoughts on that, if the Secondary OR count swings to a -6 or +6 the #'s 6 should be replace with 3 I'm either side of the integer and can assist to predict the system to adjust to. In the way I was using it I could climb up to 10 units within 25 hands or less and I think an adjusted OR may help to get to the ten unit mark faster I will keep experimenting with this to see to validate it as a useful indicator Thanks Ellis CC

I have experimented with starting an additional OR count at the starting point of placing my first bet with a reference of "zero" and moving it up and down and have toyed with the idea of switching systems based in the secondary OR count. So far it has worked but still in early stages of testing. The only problem is that it can have a bias swing in mid shoe and then change back to original bias but like I said it is too early to validate this as a reliable indicator. Perhaps this has been tried before? CC

Hey Paul in my testing I've seen similar situations but it sounds like the bet may be more dependent from the SAP count at hand and overrides standard NOR bet placement.... Would you agree on this or am I seeing this the wrong way? Just trying to play the practice shoes correctly so I don't stumble in scorecard keeping st the table when you need to be focused and have set stratedgy and disciple Any other oobservasions that I should know about when incorporating the SAO count with NOR?

Thanks Paul, I have over 800 shoes in my database old excel and programmed the SAP count last night in my spreadsheet that works automatically so I play the shoes at random very quickly, The result is identically displayed as in S40 manual with spaces between the counts. you still need to make the decision for P or B manually. The spreadsheet is still in development stage but should be finished soon. CC