MVSeahog

Bacca, If the bet was 4 and it wins, the next wager is 2. What most people confuse is the "M2" part of the statement. After a 1 unit wager, win or lose, the next wager is 2 as in Mandatory 2. Hope this helps. MVS

Way to go, Norm, What time did you play and how were the conditions? Crowded, smoky or just the normal semi-empty tables? MVS

Norm, Hopefully that file I sent by Skype is working for you too. MVS

Is it safe to assume that in the last three years here that you've read all of the public threads on baccarat? That should at least give you a heads up AND a head start at the tables. Has your "internet" baccarat been live hands or RNG? MVS

Norm, Good to see you back. Welcome to Florida!! Anyway, here's a few that I just ran last week. All three were from BetPhoenix's live dealt table at night. Lately I've been just playing a few hands in shoes that look "ripe" for basic S40 and while sitting there I have time to write down the entire shoe while waiting! I'll try to transcribe more as time permits in the future. It's always difficult to get guys to post up recently played shoes for some reason, but we'll give it a try one more time!! AD Bet Phoenix 10-06-2012 PM B12222452 P1154441 B124121513 P161132111 Bet Phoenix 10-07-2012 PM P43111211114 B213222311111 P2311311611 P311512

Ellis, I believe that probably everyone on this forum is aware of BS and most can run down several decks of cards and make the "correct" BS plays with little problem. That's because we all started in the casinos on blackjack/21 in our all important "formative" years. With that said, once we saw the rules constantly changing in BJ to beat down on the player, it became obvious that baccarat had become the best table game available and it was "next in line" in the casino for the non-Asian players. With the advent of the 6/5 payouts, continuous shuffle machines and heavy scrutiny at the BJ table, the game appeared to become something that should be avoided as there was an easier way to make the money, and that was baccarat. I always enjoyed playing BJ, but it's simply on the dollar games now, when you can find them. I am not about to fight the constant rules changes in BJ because the casino's drop lost a few percentage points. Maybe it's just me, but those are the reasons I've pretty much avoided BJ in the last few years almost completely! I do enjoy reading about you guys beating up the casinos with your current team play and it does appear to be a logical solution to BJ but I just can't pull myself away from the baccarat tables to put in the time to beat up on BJ. This is just my opinion but it may sum up the thoughts of many lurkers and fellow bac players. MVS (still the best three years of my gambling life, right here in BTC)

All, For you newer guys here, this is not something new that Ellis has just come up with. He has always stated that OTB4L is a valid play and has the history to back it up. Also, when you are on an "OTB4L table" and you're winning with it, you will most probably be the only one wagering that way! MVS

Dave, I elected to not wager there because of the 3 losses in a row early in the shoe AND seeing that my early choppy shoe had just gone 2,3 and might be going streaky. I was still up 1 unit so there was no hurry to "chase" those three losses. Let's let the shoe run a bit and see if it comes back. I waited for a paper win and then eased back in to pick up two wins. That was also a pivotal area as I looked back and saw a 2,3,4,1,4 run and was considering going to the "F" series to bet. I think if another 3 or 4 had showed up, I would have made the switch to F2 to test it out. Waiting out a hand or two is not in the NOR manual I don't believe. That's something that I picked up from PapaJoe back when we were working on variations of the original SAP charting. Back then it was wait for a paper win after two losses. I got used to it and now I'll generally fall back into that pattern early in the shoe when three losses in a row show up. It's just a personal type of thing when I'm not really confident about what the shoe is showing me at that time. Hope this helps. MVS

B321115112111213232332222221111332211 Kramden, Assuming I came on to this shoe at the start while playing online, I would have most probably started a test wager at Hand 9 with a win, then lost the next two and then a win OTR for a single wager, then back to Opps. Lost hand 12, win hand 13, 14, 15, 16, lose 17, win 18,19,20,21. Lose 22 and exit shoe in this online game. Basic System 40 here. Identify and "confirm" after hand 8 and jump in. Take my "quick" profit and exit. I may have started it at hand 8 but wanted to "make sure" the singles were going to hold up. The short trend was moving to positive on the count so I decided to make the entry at hand 9. Hope this helps as my online play generally goes like that. Look at the shoe, see if it fits the S40 mold. Jump in, make a few units, get out. If the chops become really good, stay in but being very conservative, I'm still happy with a +4 or +5 win anytime! MVS

Way too cool!! Excellent report and it sounds like you guys had a heck of a good time too! MVS

All, Well, with the hurricane coming in and having all of my chores done that needed to be completed to be "ready" for it, I made a quick check in over at BPH to see if anything was looking like I could jump in for a few quick wins before heading off to sleep. When I logged in, I got this dandy of a shoe. It was kind of odd in that the tote board was showing about half the shoe already finished, but the actual cards on the table were very early in the shoe so obviously the tote board had scores from the previous game as when I was actually finished, it showed 136 hands played! So it appears that my initial observation was correct. Anyway, this shoe was so choppy that I saw some guy in a white shirt and tie hovering around the table for almost the entire second half of the shoe. Never saw that happen before. He was very intent on the decisions at the table for sure. The play by play on this System 40 only shoe should be obvious. At one time, around hand 18-20 I was toying with the idea of going to F2 as the play, but stuck with S40 because I'm stubborn and I actually like S40 over F2. F2 or F3 would have also done nicely with this shoe and as the wife was making some smart aleck remarks about me only taking a "few hands" in and staying in the game so long, I figured I may as well play it out until I fell back to some determined stop points. The "15" and "25" notations on the right side were where I made notes to myself that those would be stop loss points should the shoe turn against me. Notice that the count actually got into the mid 20's later in the shoe. Very unusual for sure so I just HAD to keep playing it to see where it wound up. As it turns out, this was one of my very rare +30 shoes. I'm usually in the +6 to +10 area and will always settle for a safe +3 or +4 if the shoes gets ugly. This one just wouldn't stop chopping so I just kept going! With a SAP count of 18-8-0-8 at the bottom of the first column, how could I NOT keep going!! MVS BetPhoenix 8-25-2012 PM B11111123414 P1221121111111112 P31111211221121 P11112213

Well, if it's August, it's time for this little annual update. How many different ways can I write what is basically the same message!! Hard to believe it's been 3 years since I first signed in and signed up to be a full time member here. The year changes, but the message doesn't. As this thread is so short, you should have no problem reading all 10 or 11 messages to get the full idea. Rather than take up a lot of people's time writing what would basically be a rehash of the previous years, I'll just say that buying into the ideas and methods here at BTC was one of my best gambling investments, ever. I'm in profits for the last three years and my gambling account continues to grow slowly but steadily. As I'm a very conservative player, my wins are generally smaller than most other players, but that's just my own style. Those who are a bit more aggressive obviously make more money at the game. Gentlemen, you've managed to register here and read this thread. Read everything you can and when you decide to start playing baccarat seriously instead of just betting hunches, take a really good look here and see what you can get for about the cost of one losing session. Three years on board and I'm still a happy (winning) camper. MVS

Ellis, Well, they are hand shuffled shoes. I haven't sat through an entire shoe and shuffle to see what the "other color" shoe on the table is for. I have seen the local "pit boss" bring in a new shoe but it does get shuffled before being put into play. If I can free up some time, I'll stick around and play a full shoe and see how they treat the two color decks. MVS

All, For those of you who are new here, the great "Baccarat Great Learning, Zuan Xin" style was discussed here probably two years ago. Those of you who will take the time to wade through it will see the obvious problems as the "lessons" proceed. As Ellis has replied to this thread, it will stay for the time being. MVS

Ellis, OK, here's a quick screenshot from about 20 minutes ago to show a hand where the players took a card and the dealer busted. AD

Ellis, Everybody sits at the same spot. You can still jump in and play for free to test things out, which is what I did yesterday to make sure what I'm saying was still true. Although the video is much better now, it is still a bit unnerving to see all the "stuff" in the background. Wires, cables, other tables, etc. If I get over there today I'll grab a screen shot and post it up. MVS

All, I just logged into BPH tonight for the first time in a bit and I see they've really cleaned up their video, both on Bac and BJ. It now looks more like a studio arrangement but the CNN and sports channels are now missing from the setup. I didn't get any email notification that they were planning on "upgrading" their facilities, but it does look a lot better but I still think they need something of a "baseline" in the background to confirm it's still a realtime, live dealt game. The bac game also appears to be quicker in the time between hands, too. Still got 'em for +6 tonight so the change didn't hurt THAT much I guess. (Thank you, Sys40/NOR!) Anyway, anybody see anything wrong with the change? The video obviously got better, that's for sure but I think they moved the camera a bit higher as the girls have to make a real effort to look in the camera now. MVS

Yep, you've got it correct. I haven't been on the blackjack tables for awhile but I'll watch for how it goes the next time I'm in there. I believe the pile looks like the same size as the bacccarat game. It is NOT a continuous shuffle game. I believe they do it like the baccarat game. If there is a question/problem then you email them the game number explaining what happened and they get back within 24 hours. I've had three "glitches" playing baccarat and all were resolved in that time frame. Yes, a new game brings a new shuffle of the same cards. At least that was how it was done the last time I was in a BJ game. I'm going by the size of the initial deck as compared to the baccarat deck size. They appear to be similar. The main reason I got into this thread was to try to explain that unlike a "normal" blackjack table, if 6 people all request a "hit", then 6 cards come out. In the BPH game, only ONE card comes out for all of the "hit" requests each time. MVS

King, I'm not a BJ player by any stretch of the imagination, especially with the 6-5 payouts in a lot of the casinos so I prefer baccarat as my primary game. Go with the game you're most comfortable with and feel that you have the advantage when you sit down to play. MVS

Kingaries1986, Just to jump in here for a moment..... The "LIVE" dealt blackjack game at BetPhoenix is dealt a bit differently than a true blackjack table in that it allows for an extra card to be drawn whenever ANY player in the game needs one. For example, if 200 people are playing the game and the hand comes out Dealer 4-X and YOU, as the player holds A-9, most people would stand on the soft 20 but if ANY other player decides they want a card, then another card comes out BUT IT DOES NOT AFFECT YOUR HAND, unless you also requested a card. The display on the table looks a bit odd, but you will get used to it. Having the extra card show up when I didn't request it made me do a double take a few times, just to make sure I wasn't getting that card, but so far, in limited blackjack testing, it hasn't proven to be a problem. Just remember that BPH is playing dealer hand against 100's of players. If 65 people decide they want to draw a card, ONLY ONE CARD COMES OUT, not 65 individual one. Hopefully my explanation makes sense. MVS

Linkhelpers "link" has been removed but we left the message up for continuity. We'll consider that his "freebie" but I'm sure he won't be back. MVS

kachatz1 is spot on with his quote. The evaluation of the play by play is very important when you first start playing ANY method. When you do this you'll slowly begin to see just how and WHY you're making a particular wager and WHY you're on a particular side. The learning curve is a bit steep at the start, but from what you're written, it appears you're moving along nicely. Hang in there and continued good luck at the tables. MVS

John, It'll be OK over in the public area and it'll get more exposure too! MVS

Davem, Just to let you know, I too also wondered about the wager at hand 13. At least I know I'm on the right track!! MVS

daytrader and way2fast, That was an excellent write up and report of the how's and why's of your local play. Well done and thanks for posting it up. An excellent read for sure. MVS