MVSeahog

I ran it out this morning, even before my coffee (bad mistake for sure) and it finished up +2. Hi +5 Low -5 Finish +2. Your posted 3rd column only had 19 hands in it so I just grabbed the next one in line to continue on. This was a purely mechanical, 1,2,1 with a 3 stop loss to a winning circle. No SAP count to monitor due to the previously mentioned lack of coffee at this early hour. You did notice that the second column just killed that shoe. Luckily the 3 stop thing got you out of the brutal 311 series so you could get most of that back at the bottom of column 2. The next logical question is "Why didn't the 311 at the top of third column do the same thing?" The answer would be that is was, in reality, a 511 streak that actually started at the bottom of column 2. MVS

Well, on my internal testing sheets, it's "officially" known as OTB4L Sys 3 because of the proliferation of three's involved. 3 Z's, a streak on either side of 3, stop betting after 3 losses. The mind does strange things in the wee hours of the morning when you're running sheet after sheet and that's what my brain called it. I guess we could also try OTB4L S3 as kind of a secret code or something. MVS (only the Shadow knows, bwuuuuuuhhhhahahahaha) Man, I need some sleep.

To answer a few questions that came in here and via PM...... I kind of made the change from flat betting to 1,1,2 to the current 1,2,1 when PJ showed us his 1,2,1 play with RD1. I was winning a lot of shoes at 1,1,2 but it was painfully slow. Yes, I'm a conservative player but I could see the value in the 1,2,1 and after looking at about 30 shoes, it came out that the actual "Hi Bets" were still 2's and it was picking up a lot of those free 1,1 lose/win plays with another unit. Losing the full three bets only resulted in an extra 1 unit but only when you lost the 2,1,2 bet and not the 1,2,1 bet so I started looking at the 1, 1.5, 2 and the 1,2,1 as previously mentioned. The 1, 1.5, 2 was just a bit cumbersome to paper play although it would have been easy on a $10 table, on a $25 it would be a pain and once again, the apparent difference in the money was negligible. That's why I'm currently running 1,2,1 as in the RD1 system. Win percentage rate? I'll assume that the amount of winning shoes to losing shoes. In practice I'm getting three out of four shoes as winners, but I don't have enough live casino play to make an accurate statement about it. I do know that the first five shoes played came out 4 wins and 1 loss. I'll be practicing at least three shoes a night for the forseeable future and will have a better trend by then. Having the stop loss at -8 should negate any really horrible shoes that might show up. Another question was the wager amounts at hands 12, 13, 14 and 15. I thought this was a "2-Hi" system!! Well, those bets should have been made about 4 hands earlier on the run. 1,2,1,2,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6 etc or whatever WINNING progression you would normally use would go in there. No sense in wasting a run of 10 or 15 by betting low all the time. That's why there are a pair of 3 wagers and the 4 bet at Hand 14. MVS

Hmm, I've notice that too. I went to send you a PM but it wasn't available. Went to the member's listing and you're not there either!! Hmmm, MensaMadness is a ghost????? (hehehe) MVS

Mensa, Yeah, I was having problems with the search too. At first I thought it only searched the "TAGS" functions, but that wasn't it. Now I'm thinking that it's only looking back as far as the recent upgrade to the system here, but that's a long shot. I've tried testing it with common thread words but it's only bringing up a few of the posts and then only those from the last week or so. Hopefully Keith or someone will have the secret decoder ring for the search function soon! MVS

OK, here goes my best shot at this. I really didn't have anything to edit the scan with that looked like I knew what I was doing so I transposed the original scorecard to one of our own and will make the comment here for a running dialog of sorts. The shoe starts off with a B111 so I start betting the ZZ with a 1,2,1,2 wager. Stay on that until it loses. Hand 14 is the loser so we go back to the original OTB4L as we really don't know what we've got yet, just a bunch of one's!! Hand 22 loses the 2 bet but is also a run of 3 Banks so you'll jump on the run basically with RD1 or TB4L, whichever you want to call it. At this point in the shoe the only significant events are the 2's so far. That first ZZ run is not really a good indicator so you can discount most of it. At least that's what my brain was thinking about that time. Hand 28 loses and ends the run of Banks. No 3's and only one "real" 1 so I'm back to OTB4L. Hand 28, pencil broke! Fell back to the crappy casino pen. (Note, bring backup mechanical pencil) Hand 30 loses but starts another run with a P3. Jump on the run until it ends. Hand 36 ends the run, back to OTB4L and update the SAP count. Other than the streaks, there's only some 2's to deal with so it's OTB4L for now again. Hand 44 has us losing our first "three in a row". 2,1,2 lost so we now Skip until a winning circle appears. Hand 46 has the winning circle and we continue on with OTB4L at 1 unit. Hand 47 loses AND is the third Bank so we jump back on the Bank streak, we hope. Hand 51 loses and ends the streak, back to OTB4L and immediately lose the three in a row. Hand 54 is marked "played wrong" but that's incorrect. It was played correctly because if you'll look at hands 51,52,53 you'll see that they are the start of a ZZ run so the bet at 54 is correct. Hand 57 WAS played incorrectly though. With the winning hand at 55, you go back on OTB4L. I cost myself 2 units there with that mistake. Hand 64 has us losing still another three in a row so with Skip until a winning circle. Hand 66 is another incorrect OTB4L bet. I think my brain slipped into RD1 mode or something. Hand 67 wins the circle and you continue on with OTB4L to finish the shoe. Although this shoe had three losing runs of three for -13 units, it still produced a profit. Granted most of them will NOT be this large but the lack of three's and three HUGE streaks really put this one over the top for me. You can see from the casino card that the paperwork isn't overwhelming and if you understand the notation of SAP, it kind of falls into place once you get settled in. Hope this helps someone with the way I'm playing at this point in time. Now let's hope I can get these three graphics to post up!! MVS

OK, I'll scan the casino card and when I figure out how to make notations on a "clean" standard sheet, I"ll get that posted up with it to explain just what I was doing in that shoe. MVS

Dom, I believe I've posted them up somewhere around here but it would be easier just to post it here again. It's pretty mechanical but does require a bit of watching for major events in the shoe. I was never a big OTB4L proponent, mainly due to the 1's beating it up but then TB4L gets killed by 2's so there had to be a way to get the best of both worlds. My "current" method of play is to watch the first three hands. You can use any amount, but I chose three. If the shoe starts out P3 or B3, I'll jump in on RD1 or TB4L. If it starts with a ZZ (P111 or B111) jump in on the ZZ until it ends. Anything else (P12 or P21, etc) you'll start play with OTB4L. Why? Because we don't have tote boards here and it was either SKOR/z or OTB4L to start an unknown shoe for direction and I still needed two colors for SKOR/z so I went with OTB4L because they play so close with the wagers. You'll play OTB4L until the previously mentioned ZZ comes up of 4 according to BTC notation, but it looks like this: B242111.... The "111" signals a switch to betting the Z until it loses. The same thing happens with a streak of 3. Jump on the streak until it loses and then back to OTB4L. I stop betting after three losses. Losing a 1,2,1 or 2,1,2 bet stops play until a winning circle shows up playing whatever mode you were in. The betting then resumes at 1. My personal shoe stop loss is -8 with an occasional "flyer" of one more bet to see if it stands a chance to recover. If I was flat betting it I would use a -6 as the stop loss. I do keep a running SAP score in the middle of my scoresheet. It adds an element to decide whether to go back to OTB4L or stay on what amounts to an RD1 play once you switch. I have practiced it strictly as a mechanical system and it does pretty well, but you would still want that extra information with the SAP or some other count to reinforce your choice of playing pattern. I really wanted to use System 40 as one of my choices but I'm still not sure of where it would fit into the mix. I just love the symmetry of System 40 and would hate to have it fade away again. Hope this helps and maybe it'll clear up any questions you may have about it. MVS

mistermb, Well, I elected to start the shoe running "my modified version" of OTB4L. It plays like normal, but when it runs into a ZZ pattern, it jumps on it until it runs out. The same thing for a run/streak of 3. It's a conglomeration of OTB4L, RD1 and a touch of TB4L but it always falls back to OTB4L after a loss unless the SAP count is pointing with large numbers to something else, generally RD1. The shoe started P111111 etc and as I generally watch the first three hands to get some idea of what may come up, it led directly into chasing the ZZ until it lost at hand 14. Normally OTB4L would get killed with a run like that, but that's why I made the modification of it to "catch" those ZZ's when they show up. MVS

Keith, I posted this in the wrong section. Can you move it to the private area when you log in? Sorry. MVS

All, Well, today was the day. I figured it was now or never and I believe I've run enough live and test shoes and should feel reasonably comfortable to start play on a Green table. Was feeling pretty confident when we rolled into the casino this afternoon. Not a big crowd as they weren't giving anything away but strangely there were two players at my $10 table. I cashed in for $500 like usual and when she went to give me my reds and greens, I asked for all green. Even the table manager looked at me differently! Very odd. Anyway, the girl dealing was super fast. I could barely keep my scorecard up to date and she was "last calling" us out. I finally talked with the other two players and said, "she's killing us (actually them) with this fast game. Let's hold off until we all agree we're ready and then put the bets down. She's not going to deal until there's money on the table." Amazingly we all agreed and it went well after that. The dealer would call "last call" and there would be nothing out. She was dead in the water. We all made our normal bets and it moved nicely. But I digress. Now that we have the table speed under control, it was back to playing. I came in late to my first shoe and it obliged me with a B6 with me running RD1. Came out +5 in the first short shoe! Woo-hoo! All betting was done at 1,2,1,2,1,2,etc as in RD1 but with a stop after 3 losses and wait for a Skip Circle to win then restart at 1. I also kept the SAP running score in the center of the card for reference. Shoe #2 started off nicely but it was falling apart in the third column and I should have gotten out, but stayed for some reason. Wound up +2 in that one. Very disappointed in my discipline in that one. Well, the shoes weren't being all that kind to RD1 tonight but the 1's were slightly out of whack and I'm dieing to try my own version of OTB4L Skip so I gave it a try. I could always swing back into RD1 anywhere. And of course, right on cue, the shoe immediately goes super Z. Thirteen one's right off the bat. However this fits right into my OTB4L plan. I hit nine of those 13 1's and pull in 15 units right off the bat. Of course I was very late to start pressing the bets on the wins and only got brave at hand 13 where it promptly lost hand 14. Oh well, I'll take it!! That shoe went very nice with very few one's after that and a lot of two and a few streaks to end up +26 in that shoe! My first "real" +20! As I'm on a nicotine high from the other two players and feeling pretty good, I elect to move on past my usual three shoe stopping point. Shoe #4 plays pretty much the same as #3 but without the giant ZZ run anywhere. +24 in that one! Shoe #5 plays out again smoothly and winds up at +13. RD1 would have won in the last three shoes also. By now I'm getting worn out. Non-stop play since I've been in here so I'll go for a "quick 10 units" and call it a night. Shoe #6 goes back to RD1, which I find very easy to play, and hits +11 at hand 31 and I am so outta there! Tracked down the wife, ate the free late dinner (it was close to 10pm by now) and headed home. I know it won't always go like this, but we can always hope! Once again, my thanks to all of you who contribute to the "greater good" and allow us all to tweak and refine the methods of play to fit our own styles. So far, for me, OTB4L coupled with RD1 and SAP is just golden. MVS Shoe #1 (late entry) B623112212 B11121 Shoe #2 B24323331 B161142311 B1123111311122 P13115321 Shoe #3 B11111111111121221 B782111 B3161122211 P2112122 Shoe #4 B32121461 P1322471 P12172334 Shoe #5 B13222121411 B32322521 P411225113 B321131 Shoe #6 (early exit) P213211331111 P64x

Dawgpen, Well, playing for a living and just playing to win are two different animals I would think. I am NOT playing for a living, that's for sure. I don't think I could even do it if I wanted to. I'm sure there are others who can do it, but it would appear to be a difficult road to travel. I've openly posted up my relatively small amount of live table shoes and am winning at a very good pace. Although I'm playing differently than I was when I first started here, I consistently test and reconfigure what I've got to work with according to what's in my casino at the time. I've tried to make my method of play mechanical, but I don't think that's a good, long term strategy. You really do have to watch the shoe constantly and be prepared to make changes as needed. Some may be incorrect, but at least you'll see them and correct back as needed. As for testing and practice? I get at least 3 to 5 practice shoes a day, every day, at home and try to get "in the game" before heading out to the casino. But that's just me. Others may just read, test and go. When I tried that I would get beat up fast! Asking anyone if they're winning consistently is a slightly ambiguous question. How about asking if they're winning at an "acceptable" rate? To me that would be a much better question. So, to answer your original question. Yes, I am winning "consistently" and I think I'm winning at an acceptable rate for my style of play. I KNOW it's better than my old style of play before I showed up here! As an aside, this has been the most profitable 6 months of casino play in my life and I'm really looking forward to a full year of it. I hope this helps with your question. MVS

Ezza, That's pretty nice. Works with a little external help and makes a nice visual for a quick check on posted shoes. Thanks. MVS

DublinBet Dec 22, 2009 Evening P1213121221121 P111121111211213 P241281 Played OTB4L all the way. MVS

DublinBet December 21, 2009 Approx 6pm Eastern. I've been having some odd problems at DublinBet lately. Three times now I've been part way through a new shoe and the game has gone to the "Random Number Generator" screen and I just kind of drop out of the game. Not so tonight. Entered the first one as a partial and wound up +7. OTB4L start and switch to TB4L running 1,1,2 no skip. B211112351111 P3616 Second Shoe I was going to wait for the first three hands to start an OTB4L run, but with the B4 start, I went with TB4L right off the bat. RD1 was also an option but I'm still playing pretty conservative. B45131312 P231114 P1212231 High +20, Low +0, Finish +12. Stop win at hand 44 +12. Third shoe. Started TB4L again but got beat up pretty fast at the start and went to RD1 as the lack of 1's in the previous hands (and this one) appeared to be the correct play. Stayed on RD1 playing 1,2,1,2 no skip all the way. P3223432 B12211373 B2511114 High +18, Low -5, Finish +18 MVS

Just went in and signed up tonight at Black Orchid myself. Seemed like a pretty well run "live" site. I'll test it out some more later when I get tired of the game at DublinBet late at night. MVS

December 10, 2009. Seminole Indian Casino, Immokalee, Florida. 8 deck, machine shuffle. Late afternoon. Shoe #1 B12165113 P231621311 P13211141141 B2111 Shoe #2 B22232113121 P1122522113 P53122223 B24133211 MVS

DublinBet Live Dealt Hands On Line. December 9, 2009. About 4pm Eastern Time. B323372 B2241232211 B3163214 DublinBet 11pm same night. P1421111225 B14618 P1711121 MVS

DublinBet Online Live Dealt Hands. December 8, 2009 P221111411111111 B139112111 P612142 MVS

Well, I copied down your shoe #6 to a practice sheet yesterday and then waited until tonight to run it so I wouldn't know what was coming up. Started OTB4L flat betting 1 unit until hand 18 where it lost two in a row for the third time in that column. OK, that should be telling me something and I made the change to TB4L for hand 19 and on. Now playing TB4L U1D2 with a starting bet of 1. On 3 losses in a row, wait until it looks like that losing 2,2 is gone then continue the U1D2. That happened once at hand 50-54 but once it finished, I was at +3. Then THREE 1,2,3 (L,L,W) in a row for pretty much nothing in the third column but still positive. It got tricky at the bottom of the third column as I was back down to +8 and did NOT want to drop below +6 so I went tip toeing with 1 unit bets to see if I could steal a little bit more from the rest of the shoe. It did hit +10 early in the fourth column and I elected to continue but stop at +6 for the win. That 2,1,3,2 didn't help and it finished out +6 which just happens to be MY personal shoe target. MVS (hopefully my play and thinking will kind of make sense)

If full shoes from DublinBet are OK, here's my test run from tonight. Nov 29, 2009. B21313331 B2131315121 B11232127 As this was my test hand using OTB4L as the start I changed to a straight FTL due to the lack of 1,1's in the shoe at hand 36 and it worked out nicely using U1D2 restarting at 1 on a win. MVS

Friday, November 20, 2009. Immokalee Seminole Casino (Hard Rock) Mid afternoon. 8 deck shoe. Automated shuffle. B61535 B71615 B3131114131 MVS

Hey! Great idea bringing this thread to the top again. Can't believe I missed it the first dozen times I cruised the older threads. I'll be posting up in the near future for sure. MVS

Keith, Thanks. I'm just testing for "future reference" for when posting up files to make sure they come out like I'm expecting. Spacing, search tags and things like that. It can be deleted at anytime if it's cluttering up the public board. MVS

Just a test of graphics display for future reference on tags, searching and layout.