kramden

Funny... A light bulb just went off for me, then I logged on to post a question to match the "answer" you just wrote, Kevin. On your Red Rock card/explanation I noticed that you made some decisions using SAP as a guide. But didn't see a track on the card. But since I never understood SAP to begin with, I never used it or thought anything of it. Until now. I guess now we may have a 5D to track? But how to apply it over many shoes? Just one seems reasonable... But many?? (or is there a reset when we enter a new shoe...hmm...) Man, please let me know if you have any more to reveal. If I am talking too much in the public section, also let me know. Patience Grasshopper=I know, I know. Thank you!

Well then, my generous friend, I just got finished scrubbing my hands with surgical scrub... and am waiting for them to dry so I can have the nurse apply my "surgical gloves". (non-latex for me cause I hate that powder)

Hi Kevin, Let me just offer you an "in advance" (and actually a "little late"), heartfelt thank you for all you contribute to this forum. As I am nowhere near the consistant/professional bac player that you are, I still have a burning desire to learn all I can about the game. I am so happy when I can learn something new, or a new way of doing something, from a more knowledgable person than myself. That goes for anything in my life too. I also want you to know that I DO NOT feel entitled, by fee of admission here or birth right, to anything you have to say. However, I have always been thankful for your posts. Even the purely entertaining ones! I can't believe how systematic what you have sent me already is! How detailed and how informational. It seems that I will admit that I have been a bit "slack" (Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome), in retaining the myriads of knowledge shared here. I would assume, and correct me if need be, that the first homework reading assignment was to remind, whomever, about how the statistics of say, SAP work. I still don't understand what the "self adjusting" part is, but it was nice to be reminded of the nuts and bolts of the game. Again, without sounding too mushy or insincere, thank you for what has come and what may come! kramden

Reading homework complete.

Oz, oh sorry I mean Katchatz1, the suspense is killing me. LOLOL. (a little joke. just a joke)

Dont die Oz please dont die. I am your friend... hahahaha

Hey McVince, I do not log the ties either. One thing I do note is when on a run, I note the "strength" of the hands. My play has found that as the strength, meaning how easily the winning run hand beats the other, starts to lessen, I start pulling back from the run. (I am talking about long runs of p or . Pay attention to how a run may start out with 2 or 3 naturals and then diminish or keep going strong.I don't know if anyone has any data to this effect but it is a pretty consistent guide for me. I have often wondered if the shuffle has something to do with this, like the clumping effect in blackjack. Also, there is something to be said for the amount of times that you will get like 3-10's on one side, and an ace and 2 tens on the other. Or 6 tens in a hand. I am trying to put my finger on it……….

Here's some advice too Oz: Hire someone to spackle. Congratulations man! That's some accomplishment. Many more!! Hey this kind of reminds me of an Eastwood movie "The Good The Bad and The ugly" (I'm not casting the characters, no offense). Remember when Tuco was going to kill Blondie and dehydrated him, until he found that Blondie had the secret to the name on the grave… Then he was like "Don't die Blondie. Please don't die" "I'm your friend, tell me the name…" Hahah Again, Congrats Oz!!

Screw me once shame on you. Screw me twice shame on me. Believe me it wont get to twice. So I did all my due diligence and alot of practicing with fun money to be sure that the live baccarat dealer site worked. I got input from a couple members also. This is in no way to disrespect those members (whose names will be left out), but I just caution them too. I also will leave out complete specifics because the bastards have some of my info. (which I am seriously thinking about notifying my connection in one of our international agencies. Long story, short: I funded a real money account to start with a modest bankroll. I must admit that I lost that bankroll the first session by trying to test many different things. It seemed like I didnt have a clue as to what I was doing. But I wanted to be sure of everything. Then I let the account go unused for close to 1 1/2 months. Let me tell you that they must have called me (usually from a number out of Miami, Fl.) almost every day. Telling about all the offers that were available to me. The rep was very polite with his messages. I didnt pick up the phone because I dont like solicitors. I did finally speak to the rep., who said he was the partner of the guy who helped sign me up. I had his direct extension, and anytime I called he or the other guy would pick up. I called a number of times before I made my initial deposit. There were various questions I had and needed help in setting everything up. So, after I broke his balls back for calling me so much, I decided to fund the account with a larger deposit to play seriously with. So the next two times I played sessions, I easily doubled the bankroll by just playing low stakes. Anywhere from 5 to a high of 25 dollar bets. The third time I logged on I decided that I was going to make a much larger amount of profit and the cash out for my initial deposit plus profit. Oh, did I mention that the guy told me they would waive all fees for Western Union any time I made a withdrawal? Well he told me that without me even asking. They must have thought I was a chump after my first deposit. So, I started out with 10 dollar units and then got ahead flat betting eventually using a 1-2 progression (neg and pos) with 50-100 units. And ended up flat betting black chips to protect my profit. Well from the beginning of this third session I could sense something was wrong. First, the dealers began playing with their shirts around their chest. Then the dealer would sit and stand after EVERY hand. Stand, move the chair, play with her boobies,sit get up reposition the chair, etc. I thought it was ridiculous, but would not let it distract me. Then some Asian gangster looking guy with a long sleeve light pullover shirt comes and stands next to the dealer. He actually made like he was fixing the mouse or something. He eventually walked away. (I thought this casino was in Costa Rica?) Well then the live screen kept getting interrupted with a "dealer Profile" screen. Then the dealers would change basically every hand. Then the dealer profile screen would come on every time I moved the mouse to make a bet or anything. If you are familiar with this you know that you have to click off of it to make it disappear. This screen would even come up as the cards were being dealt. It was impossible to see anything clearly. Constant bullshit!! I actually logged onto a practice account simultaneously at one point. There was absolutely no computer problems for that screen. Then finally, I had a hundred dollar bet up. The cards were dealt. Immediately after the sixth card was dealt (I won the hand), I got a "socket disconnected error". And the account was logged off. After about 15 mins. I was able to log back on. My last bet was taken and the win was credited as a loss. I immediately called the number. Some douchebag answers pretending to not speak good ingleeshe. He was so nasty. He told me that my rep was not there today. Neither was his partner. He couldnt say when they would be back. They dont have a work schedule. I said I wanted to cash out. I said that they agreed to waive all fees. I told him about the last hand and had to remind him that he has a video feed he could review.He said he couldnt cash me out. He transfers me to someone else. I retell the story. This woman says that she cant do anything. She admits that she sees the video, but a hundred dollar bet requires a supervisor's override. Of course, there is none available. "He will call me back". She cant release my money. I hesitate to say this but I was able to log back into my account much later while I was waiting. I split up my balance into a couple large bets. I lost all of them. Actually I was purposely dicking around to make my balance either huge or lose everything because I already wrote off the money.So my account was down to zero. I actually told myself that I wasnt going to get the money and I wasnt about to give them more information for a withdrawal. Chump change spent to get an education. No one ever called me back. I never got another solicitation again. My account is still open and I use it for practice. Their bullshit shoes are too easy anyway. They hold patterns too long compared to my regular casinos. Im sure there are a few things I left out but you get the point. Now whenever I play anywhere I count my winnings in terms of "bet phoenix deposits lost". LOL Oh, and please excuse my French. Mr. Davis, please email this post to all of our members. Public and private. Lets try to stop anyone else from giving them free money.

Personally if I were consistently losing 2 iar but winning the third I would take a closer look at the approach I was taking. This is easier said than done in the heat of the game though. Especially when a pair of knockers in my face keeps trying to bring me drinks. etc. So I agree with you. however I wouldnt necessarily quit the shoe right then. Rather I would wait out a couple of hands because what ever you were doing to win within three bets is close to following the shoe.

Thanks OZ! If you have any more to say I will watch the "other side". I guess your prize might be "financial security".(one of the most elusive prizes in the world)

Cadillac Job Oz!! Keep up the good work! i wonder if you wouldnt mind talking about how you approach the half decade stop win? Especially after just the first five chips profit. Are you strict every time, etc? Norm, I would appreciate your input also as we all stick to very low unit bets. This is an area which is a constant pita for me as I am usually up from the start of most shoes. A response in the private forum would be good too. Thank you both!!

Hello sir! My humble opinion would have been to wait till play six or so and then notice that the disparity between "time before time before last and opposite time before time before last" starts out being pretty tight. You could then just net bet it(or use opposing progressions) until the end of the shoe. One trick I sometimes use is to wait for a single to occur before I place my first "net bet" if I notice that there is usually a double or triple same outcome on either side I am watching. Another observartion is that you could have also net betted otb4l versus tb4l as it too holds pretty tight. Of course this is the 4d method so if you only play NOR it was more of a "repeats" shoe in certain sections. Good luck! Just be prepared to stop and watch the shoe if you lose two or three iar after you make your decision to start betting.

Hi Sam, It appears that everything has been said already to explain the shoe to you. My simple advice: 1. Study that manual an for now just focus on OT4BL shoes so you can turn on a lightbulb as to what everyone is talking about. 2. Figure out the different places you can start the shoe and what kind of results you would have gotten. For ex, if you waited to see more hands unwind, you could have started at hand 9 and still done very well with straight OT4BL. ( 3. Then move onto the other shoe types. 4. Master what the other shoe types look like on sight. You should keep practicing this until you CLEARLY see how much of a GIFT the first half of this shoe is! 5. Make a list of things to keep in mind while playing because most shoes change. For ex, if you won a bunch of units in the beginning of the shoe, mentally you might want to tell yourself that you should get more cautious. Maybe stop and reevaluate after your next 2 losses in a row. Protect your profit!! Also covered in the manual. 6. Keep a POSITIVE attitude and dont rush things. Your goal is to get to a point that you could have net betted a large section of this shoe for even greater exploits. Or at least see where you could have increased your profits. What I am saying is that you have a looonnnnnnnnngggggggggg way to go.Dont rush! Savor your time in school. The casinos arent going anywhere. Now, hit up the forum with your next question after you studied some more.

Thanks Mr. Ellis, You know, I was so taken off guard that I decided to avoid rather that play the washed shoe. I am so used to playing continually shuffled shoes , with nice success, that I admit I forgot about the effect of a wash on bac shoes. I did remember about blackjack but couldnt remember bac. I couldnt remember if the wash randomizes the pre packaged cards. So I chose the logical approach "to me" at the time and played the other table. I admit its my fault for having a memory loss. I know there is no excuse for getting too comfortable. It turned out to be a very good trip anyway. Thank you and I will reread those posts. kramden

Sam, What I am saying is yes it is still a gamble, as everything in life is. There is no guarantee that your expected outcome will turn over. If there was or if it was that easy the casinos would be boarded up. That said, the background reasoning of how the casinos "manufacture" the game of baccarat combined with the bet selection and money management approach of NOR AND combined with a players' skill and acuity should produce positive results. You should have a reason for every move you make when playing. Thus you should right many more times than you are wrong. The information on this forum is no guarantee(no offense to anyone) BUT it is more than enough to win. It takes time and practice though. And a clear head. Emotions must be left out of the equation.

Hi Sam, Listen, I hear your frustration pal. Do me a favor, read the manual section where it tells you how to shorthand write a shoe so that you know how. Then pick any live shoe and post it here. Make sure its a live shoe or you will be doing yourself a disservice. I will play it with explanation. I know its after the fact but its for information only. Now I dont play strict NOR but I will show you the NOR and my thoughts. Lets see if any lightbulbs go off. Jus one thing, I am not on a desktop all the time so you have to be patient with my reply. Take your time too with the Manual. Kramden (ready to pay back/forward)

I made a weird observation the other day. I played a mini bac table which was already mid shoe. No scoreboards so I copied the prior hands from another player. I won a bunch of units and was waiting for the next shuffle. I didnt notice but there was no shuffler so they brought out new boxed cards. The dealer actually did a wash before hand shuffling. It was a bogus wash but a wash none the less. So there was a table going next to me that was using an automatic shuffler. So I moved over to finish my play at the other table. I was kind of thrown for a loop as to how the wash would aaffect the randomness. So I made the quick decision figuring that the auto shuffler would have been holding whatever bias was there and all Inwould have to do was wait and figure out what the bias was. Should I have been worried about the wash? I dont know, but I found it strange that Under the pressure of live play I chose to use the auto shuffled game. Just taken off guard, thats all. Comments?

Well maybe I'll take a midnite run down to AC this week. (the power of suggestion)

Listen Ruebel, I dont want to hear about your fun times. LOL Kidding of course! Great job man! When cleaning house like that do you drop a players card? (just doing some new research so your answer is important) Thank you!

And Sam, I too am not a "god" who can read the shoe from the third hand. I think the default mode is only to capture the most likely event of any shoe. So I dont make my first bet until further into the shoe. I have a kind of rolling shoe evaluation where i reevaluate after every four or five hands. Then I switch on the fly. I do not wait for a column of 20 outcomes. But NOR teaches you to evaluate the shoe and then decide if its worth playing and then which of the three approaches to use. The bet then becomes a "gamble". There is unfortunately no way around that. So I say learn to read the scoreboard and then make a personal decision of when to start betting. You will probably find it more valueable to wait for at least 6 or 7 hands. Now if you are up money, you can always risk a unit or two on a run or something. Sometimes its ok and beneficial to be a "cowboy".

Hi Sam, You are correct it is a 123 up as you lose progression. The 4 bet is an on the run bet. It has been suggested that you make a separate progression for on the run bets and build up to that 4 bet once you know what is going on i the shoe. Also you need to win a few bets before you start your progression. This will tell you if you have selected the correct NOR system for the shoe at hand. I agree with you that neg progressions can cause you to hit your stop loss quickly so I limit my hi bet to 2. with enough practice in following the shoe it wont take more than a 2 bet to kick the "ever loving crap" out of a shoe. Hopes this helps you a bit!

Hi Sam, Take a nice warm cup of tea. It takes discipline, perseverance, desire, practice, etc... to win. One person may see an irrelevant post and another might think its valid discussion. You can learn something from almost any post. Something. You cant win overnight. It may take years or even never happen. Take this next advice as the most important of all: only those who under stand the "whys" behind why something is happening will be the true winners. You cannot learn a strictly mechanical, "all rules listed in order", way of beating the casinos. They are TOO smart for that. Again, intelligence is understanding WHY something is happening. Please take the time to filter out what you feel is irrelevant and print out all the relevant facts to study. Do not enter a casino for a year after you do that. Now I dont play strictly NOR, but the reasoning behind it is priceless. I now know WHY everything is the way it is at the casinos. And believe me, $600 dollars is a joke now for me. Not bragging, just trying to help. This post, as I feel it is relevant, is meant only to try and help! All the best Sam!!!

copyright? i think my secretary spelled it wrong. i meant traedmarked. lol

GREAT!! Post Mr. Davis, This should be copywrited and used as the preface to all your manuals. Thanks teach!!