The 4S Manual Questions Thread

[ECD]

Hi Master Ellis

My count is -6 on 42 hand. I can't get -7.

When u start the betting ? How to decide using RD2 ? RD2 stand for ? How you get +17 ? Can show me the step to get +17 ?

Thank you.

hllim

First check that my recorded shoe is correct to your shoe. The way I recorded it the count is -7. Check again but at least you are a lot closer.

[MVSeahog]

Hello everyone, I would like to comment on what I noticed in Vegas a couple of weeks ago. After the games would break up the dealers would always erase the tote board and shuffel the cards so when you came upon a table with no players you always had to start blind. Brian.

Brian,

We get something very similar to that here in Florida. If the table clears out for some reason, the shoe gets put back into the shuffle machine and a whole new deck comes out to start a new game.

I started a shoe like that one time and won my target for the session in about 15 hands. Very fortunate for me. While I was packing my stuff up I was talking with the dealer and said I was sorry to end the game so soon. He said it was no problem and the standard procedure was to just put the cards back in the shuffle machine and bring out the next stack for when anyone else showed up.

No tote boards here in Florida so it really didn't make that much of a difference for anyone new showing up after I had left. Just a brand new deck.

MVS

[ECD]

Hi Master Ellis

How to get +17 ?

I played RD2 as a manual preview because it was a streaky shoe and RD is our best streak method. We'll be getting to RD shortly but first I want you to learn System 40. Did you get your OR count right?

[ECD]

Hello everyone, I would like to comment on what I noticed in Vegas a couple of weeks ago. After the games would break up the dealers would always erase the tote board and shuffel the cards so when you came upon a table with no players you always had to start blind. I was playing with my wife so we just net bet player and bank till we had enough hands to start Maveric. If your playing alone it will make it a little tougher to table search if there are no players. Just curious if this is going on any place else. It's not the end of the world but, it looks like Vegas doesn't want us to see whats going on before we sit down. And if Vegas is doing it it wont be long before they all start doing it. Thanks, Brian.

Brian, thanks for the info but this is nothing new and only concerns the few games where everyone quit. Most casinos normally dump a dead shoe where everyone quit and the shoe has reached a certain point. A few casinos like Gold Coast still make you play the end of the dead shoe. That's how we got our big advantage on the group trip. I think that one partial shoe taught them to not do that any more.

But the shuffle is close to meaningless unless they change the shuffle machine settings and they usually don't.. The blue shoe generally keeps doing whatever the blue shoe was doing and the red follows the red. Usually both are about the same but not always.

Be careful using the term "new cards". Many casinos use factory preshuffled cards and replace them every shoe. This usually produces chop conditions. At Gold Coast the middle isle is factory preshuffled and they use "New" but factory preshuffled cards every shoe. The outer isle uses the same cards all day. But they may or may not dump a dead shoe. It's up to the pit boss.

When I use the term "new cards" I'm referring to the few shoes right after the morning card prep. I'm not referring to a new shuffle.

[aaron0900]

Hello Master Ellis

Why O/R count alway put P first?

Next ex. shoe, i done the O/R count. Ple correct me.

BB PPPP B P B P B PPP BB P B P BB PP B P BB P

B2411111321111

B121121

O/R count at 28 hand( include the first 2B) is +5. or we should exclude the first 2B? Which is correct?

For this shoe, i come across many zero, what should we do on those count (0,-1-2,+4+5etc)? We not put our bet on every hand right ?

So, how we trigger our bet?

aaron

[aaron0900]

Hello Master Ellis

Pls correct me.

B2211111214121

B2323321121

B312

I am not sure about the M2, so i use U1D2 all the way. The following are all beting records:

Start with bet P1(L),P2(W),B1(L),B2(W),P1(W),B1(W),P1(W),B1(W),P1(W),B1(L),B2(W),P1(W),B1(L),B2(L),B3(L),B4(W), from here down 2,P2(W),B2(L),B3(W),from here down 2,P1(L),P2(L),P3(W), from here down 2,B1(L),B2(L),B3(W),down 2 again,P1(L),P2(W),B1(L),B2(L),B3(W).......,final result +17.

Is interesting we win. If add M2, we will win more right? But how to use M2?

Thank you.

Aaron

[aaron0900]

Hi Master Ellis

What is 43, 44 mean? Is it belong to System 40 manaul ? Can i have it?

Thank you.

Aaron

[ECD]

Hi Master Ellis

What is 43, 44 mean? Is it belong to System 40 manaul ? Can i have it?

Thank you.

Aaron

Right, its all part of System 40.

42 means 2's are culprit, we go OTR under a 2 in a row (after i losing bet.) (Streaky shoes)

43 means 3s are culprit, we go OTR under 3s.

44 means 4s are culprit, we go OTR under 4s.

40N means we net bet - Neutral shoes - OR count hovers 0.

Yes, the manual is yours as soon as I have it finished.

I'll be posting a little more on it most every day. Should take about 12 days if all goes well.

[ECD]

Hello Master Ellis

Pls correct me.

B2211111214121

B2323321121

B312

I am not sure about the M2, so i use U1D2 all the way. The following are all beting records:

Start with bet P1(L),P2(W),B1(L),B2(W),P1(W),B1(W),P1(W),B1(W),P1(W),B1(L),B2(W),P1(W),B1(L),B2(L),B3(L),B4(W), from here down 2,P2(W),B2(L),B3(W),from here down 2,P1(L),P2(L),P3(W), from here down 2,B1(L),B2(L),B3(W),down 2 again,P1(L),P2(W),B1(L),B2(L),B3(W).......,final result +17.

Is interesting we win. If add M2, we will win more right? But how to use M2?

Thank you.

Aaron

Well done! This is a very choppy shoe so you won easily. Had it been a nornal length 72 play shoe, you would have easily hit your +20 stop win in the third col.

But now try a streaky shoe and you will quickly see why we MUST go OTR at some point in order to win. The shoe itself tells you if and when you should go OTR On The Run. I'll be teaching you how to know.

[ECD]

Hello Master Ellis

Why O/R count alway put P first?

Next ex. shoe, i done the O/R count. Ple correct me.

BB PPPP B P B P B PPP BB P B P BB PP B P BB P

B2411111321111

B121121

O/R count at 28 hand( include the first 2B) is +5. or we should exclude the first 2B? Which is correct?

For this shoe, i come across many zero, what should we do on those count (0,-1-2,+4+5etc)? We not put our bet on every hand right ?

So, how we trigger our bet?

aaron

You are not putting P first for the sake of your OR count.

You put the P heading before the B heading on your card simply because P is dealt first. Makes for fewer mistakes. The OR count is the same either way.

I get +7 at hand 28. Try again.

When you get a lot of 0s in your count the shoe is ripe for net betting. (40N) I'll be teaching you that shortly.

In your shoe 3s are LC so you make 3s culprit by going OTR under all 3s. When 3s are culprit you only stay OTR for 1 bet win or lose. Try your shoe that way and you'll see you win very well. Very big!

Edited August 23, 2010 by ECD

[aaron0900]

Hello Master Ellis

Pls ck and correct me if i do wrong.

P1142273

B1141151222

P113112152111

P211131

The O/R counts at 69 hands is -2.

I also try bettting opposites, i got final result +2, but if include 5% com, this is the losing game. max lost at the 17 hand are 21 units.

Thank you.

aaron

[Fedda]

Hello Ellis, I have a question about the mandatory bet in the prog. U1D2 M2.

You win the 1 unit bet, then we place our 2 unit bet (M2) and lose. Are we following the progression as normal and place the 3 unit bet?

Im really looking forward to the continuation of the manual! I appreciate that you explain "4s" step by step this way.

At last Im angry at myself not looking at bac in a way like this before..

Thanks

[ECD]

Correct Fred. I suppose you could follow the winning one and losing 2 with another 2 bet if its early in the shoe and you are not sure of your footing yet. Ha, but you know darn well that if you chicken out with a 2 bet the darn thing will win for sure!

I suppose the slow progress on the manual is boring for the oldtimers but the guys seem to be getting the basics down pretty good so I think I can start moving along a little faster.

[ECD]

Hello Master Ellis

Pls ck and correct me if i do wrong.

P1142273

B1141151222

P113112152111

P211131

The O/R counts at 69 hands is -2.

I also try bettting opposites, i got final result +2, but if include 5% com, this is the losing game. max lost at the 17 hand are 21 units.

Thank you.

aaron

Excellent job aaron both posting and counting. Great, now we can move along a little faster. I'll start right in with the Sys 40 rules in the morning. But I'll explain them in a way that jells with the other systems.

[jerseyslim]

Ellis...........It might be helpful, as you put up each segment of the 4S, that you include an attachment of an actual shoe, illustrating exactly what it is you're talking about. I can understand what you're saying about the net betting of 4S, but it might be very helpful to those having difficulty with what you're saying. It might help eliminate a lot of questions some may have.

[jerseyslim]

Ellis..........what I'm not quite sure of is when you enter to go OTR and the LC is 2, how long do you stay on the OTR. Is it until it runs out, for just one bet, or some other predetermined number of hands.

[MVSeahog]

Under the 4 headings enter 8 Xs the actual number of 4s thus far.

Ellis,

Just want to confirm that we're now counting the "4's" with 8x the actual instead of 4x's like the previous SAP charting methods?

MVS

Edited August 26, 2010 by MVSeahog
Made it a question

[aaron0900]

Hello Master Ellis

If a shoe, the O/R count patterns are like this:

(-1-2-3-2--1-2-3-2-1-2-3-2-3-2-1) 0 -1 0 (+1 +2 +1 +2 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +8 +7 +6 +7 +6)

How we apply our system 40 here?

pls advise.

aaron

[aaron0900]

Hi Master Ellis

How we detemine the LC at the follow shoe?

B1212133111112

B121113122231

P2241114122

B231

Toatl there 8x2s , 8x3s, 3x4s.

Obviously 4s is the LC, so we OTR on the 4s, then we will facing 2 lost. Pls advise.

aaron

[ECD]

Aaron, recognize that you must multiply the actual 2's by 2; the 3's by 4 and the 4s by 8 before you can compare your LC (SAP) entries.

Edited August 26, 2010 by ECD

[ECD]

Aaron, you don't need to do anything different from the rules presented to beat that shoe even though it started with a minus count. You'll see in the sample shoe that the OR count started out much worse, hitting -5 right at the beginning. This caused us to have a -6 drawdown but we were even by play 8 and never went in the red again.

Now suppose the shoe starts - and keeps going lower. We make 2's culprit. With 2s culprit we beat most any - count shoe. With System 40 there is almost always a way to win.

[ECD]

Hi Master Ellis

How we detemine the LC at the follow shoe?

B1212133111112

B121113122231

P2241114122

B231

Toatl there 8x2s , 8x3s, 3x4s.

Obviously 4s is the LC, so we OTR on the 4s, then we will facing 2 lost. Pls advise.

aaron

Right 4s are obviously LC. No problem. You will kill that shoe! Remember, I said start with 4s LC unless you KNOW otherwise from prior play of that shoe color. So, like the sample game 4s stay LC all the way through. This is quite common to have the same LC all the way through. I'm pretty sure you will always win such games.

[ECD]

Ellis,

Just want to confirm that we're now counting the "4's" with 8x the actual instead of 4x's like the previous SAP charting methods.

MVS

Correct MVS! That is the "slight difference" between System 40 SAP charting and SAP system SAP charting I was talking about. See, in SAP we are interested in 4 OR MORES but in System 40 we are interested in confirmed 4s. Actually I think it makes SAP charting both easier and more useful.

[ECD]

Hi Master Ellis

How we detemine the LC at the follow shoe?

B1212133111112

B121113122231

P2241114122

B231

Toatl there 8x2s , 8x3s, 3x4s.

Obviously 4s is the LC, so we OTR on the 4s, then we will facing 2 lost. Pls advise.

aaron

Sorry Aaron, I just now saw the last part of your question. Yes, the 4s late in the shoe cause us a slight hickup but we don't "lose" to them. They won't get us to worse than a 4 or 5 bet and we end up making money on them. Don't let a shoe scare you before you've tried it. It's sorta like women.

Edited August 26, 2010 by ECD

[ECD]

Ellis..........what I'm not quite sure of is when you enter to go OTR and the LC is 2, how long do you stay on the OTR. Is it until it runs out, for just one bet, or some other predetermined number of hands.

jersey, always when twos are culprit and also any time you are seeing lots of long runs stay on them until you lose (the run ended) But if your final losing OTR bet happens to be a 2, its best to go back to 1. "Prudent" would be a better word.

The thing that can give us fits with 40 is straight runs following straight runs consistently. While rare, shit happens! But fortunately RD1 absolutely LOVES that scenario. THAT is why RD1 is part and parcel to 4S. You will particularly like RD1 the new way I'm going to teach it right in this manual.