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I believe the manual comes with the class at no additional charge.

Brendan was trying to say that it is easy to lose $800 when you

are not playing properly. NOR will get you playing properly. It is

well worth whatever you pay. You will win it all back quickly, maybe

even your first time playing it.


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Just wanted to know from people that have taken NOR and are playing it, is it worth the large $800 for the class, and the $600 for the manual? I just can't see paying that kind of money for a system unless I have some kind of guarantee that it actually works.

There are no guarantees in life apart from "DEATH...TAXES and that my wife will always find out if I tell her an untruth"

The system itself undoubtedly works...Whether it will work for you depends a bit on your attitude...willingness to put the time in...your willingness to accept the counsel of Ellis and the other Pros at BTC. (and you need to have at least half a brain.)

NOR needs to be studied and absorbed as if it is a course that you are doing at University. It takes time to get it right but is well worth the effort.

The greatest benefit of paying your subscription is in my humble opinion...not the manual itself...but the access that you then have to the "Private Baccarat Forum"...where pretty much every question you can ask has already been asked and answered... and the guidance you will receive as you grapple with the intricacies of NOR. Of course the NOR Manual is a necessity for the necessary grounding you need in the basics of NOR (and make no mistake ...the manual itself will turn you into a winner just that your learning curve would most likely be slower)...but it is not the "be all and end all".

I suspect that your costing is in error but nevertheless I will return to your original question...

"Is it worth it"

My answer "It depends on what you consider the price should be to turn you into a Baccarat winner"...NOR together with the guidance of Ellis and the other members of BTC turned me into a winner.

Whatever...I wish you the best of luck


BTW: I expect to make well over the asking price every time I enter a Casino.

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I realize I should stay out of this but I do need to correct the pricing mentioned. I don't control or even follow the pricing but I know it's an either or kind of thing. You pay one or the other, not both. All seminar attendees receive a manual or you can simply buy a manual outright and get a greatly discounted tuition for any seminars regardless of subject. More importantly, either way you decide to do it, the private Baccarat forum is included, including NOR+ which is a more aggressive way of playing NOR with a goal of 20 units instead of 10 once you are playing NOR correctly.

I also might mention that while Oz himself was a slow starter but a fast finisher, many of our new students pay for their manual their first outing, some their first shoe. Some experienced players recognize right off that the approach works and start right out full bore. Others, esp. those who have been previously swindled by system sellers, to put it politely, which is most of the members here, start out more cautiously. They want to see the approach prove itself. And for most, it does. A lot depends on how seriously you take learning.

BTW, nobody is getting rich off of this. I doubt if I make half of min. wage. Nor do I care - no pun intended.

From there, I'll stay out of it. I fully recognize it is not me you want to hear from.

Oh, just one more thing the members here can verify. Many new members post what they think are problem shoes for NOR. I'm guessing hundreds of shoes have been posted. All were beatable by both NOR and NOR+. Now this doesn't mean you go out and play any table. We'll teach you how to find good tables and how to select the right system and mode. We are with you every step of the way. While the manual is all inclusive, the forum itself is your greatest asset and where the real learning is. The forum is what you are really paying for.

From there, have at it guys - say anything you want, if, in fact, Oz left anything out.

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Lose 800$ in the casino and then ask if the manual and class is worth it. Consider that a 800$ lesson.

I think what Brendan is pointing out in his short handed way is that the average Baccarat player worldwide loses more every day he plays than NOR would have cost! Players lose at the incredible rate of 14 - 28 % of their buyin money which is far more than commission dictates. You might consider that if there is a way to lose a 50/50 game at a far greater rate than the game odds dictate, then there must be an opposite way to play that wins at a far greater rate than the game odds dictate. That is the way I teach you to play! Oh, sorry to butt in. But......

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Oz, Zebra and Ellis have all made good points...but one thing that has been brought up could have easily been overlooked, so I have chosen to focus on committment.

If GIVEN a gold brick, there are those out there who would complain about its weight (and having to carry it home)! Ellis and I discussed this point at Carmine's after the High Stakes Seminar. The NOR Approach is an excellent tool but it, as most tools, will not do the work FOR us. It takes much study and committment, even after one reaches a level of competence.

I have been a member here since Nov of 2011, starting with NBJ and soon progressing to NOR (by a fluke accident I am pleased occurred). In the ensueing months, becoming years soon, there has not been a SINGLE day that I have not done something to improve my game. I have read the manual UNTOLD times, practiced shoes from the forum as well as Live play online shoes. I play the same shoes using multiple systems to see what I can learn from my mistakes and successes. And I use the one BEST feature of the program, I log in DAILY to the Forum here. I STILL learn from the questions of others who are having issues with a certain concept or difficulty. The learning does, and should, last forever.

This works, PERIOD. Oz talks about gaining back the cost of the course in a day, I gauge my average shoe by those amounts. I have been using NOR+ since Ellis first, off handedly, mentioned it AT A BJ SEMINAR! He didn't call it that, just mentioned how he had been playing. I started experimenting the moment I got home!

Seminars, a WEALTH of knowledge, are now paid for from PROFITS! I cannot recommend them enough!

So, now I have a question for you, my friends.... Are you willing to carry your own brick home?


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A lesson to be learned.

Read through this entire thread, and decided it time to be put to the test.

Since I am already a long time NOR member, decided instead of investing further In Seminars, manuals, etc. I would invest in a gold brick, as Chris suggested.

Immediately returned home, and showed my wife what I had just purchased.

She took it out of my hands, asked me why I would buy a gold brick when NOR has proven so successful to me, and promptly dropped it on my foot, turned around and stormed out of the room. Being married for 38 years, I discerned immediately what needed to happen.

I want back to the Cash4Gold store, sold it back for a small loss, and immediately drove to the nearest Casino, where over the course of two days ,applying NOR principles and discipline, I doubled the amount I had originally invested in the Gold Bar.

I returned home, proudly displayed me winnings to the wife, who seemed unimpressed to say the least.

Moral of the story is this ( at least I think):

Don't go buying a Gold Bar, when for far less a small investment in NOR and diligent application at the local Casino will almost assuredly produce a far greater ROI. And , for better or worse, There's no place like home.

Best of luck to all!

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Oh what the heck, may as well add my two cents worth.

I used the logic that has already been presented about "losing more in a day that what the course cost".

At the time I joined, it was a full membership and I do remember the day I got my money back from the casino. Still have the check receipt!! (Online casino and all that).

Your mileage may vary but many people have put in the time, practice and work to show a profit in the casinos all from their experience here.

Next month I'll update my four year running commentary since I joined as a full, paid member.

Four years in profit is something I never could say in the previous 40 years of casino gambling.


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Oh no Mr. Davis. Glad to here from you. I would just like to know what to expect and how much success others have had with this system before I spend that much money. I have tried every system out there on my computer. Most are losers.

So I guess I got the price wrong. How much is the course? And does it come with the manual? Where can I get the correct cost and possibly sign up? How often do you have courses

I am moving to Vegas in August so I am not sure August would be the best time for me depending on how quickly I get moved.

I can't get into the NOR forum. It says I am not authorized.

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Just above the blue tab that says 'Reply to Thread', It says ' NOR Baccarat Manual' $600. Click there, after payment you will have access to the private forum, and all the answers you seek (well, baccarat answers!) Look forward to seeing you on the inside...

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  • 2 months later...

Actually...... it's really worth more than $1,000.00 and for the $600.00 that you do pay, you get far more than just a manual. You become a member of an elite group of Baccarat players that (in my opinion) are the most consistent winners in the world. This membership comes with more than just a manual, you will get up to date techniques and improvements as members collaborate and share ideas in the private NOR members forum about table observations so we can hone our skills.

Is there Luck involved?,.. sure there is.. but, to get luck you need skill….. to play without skill, you depend on luck, is luck consistent? NO !

The NOR method is something that the casinos have never seen and pit bosses and dealers are amazed and shake their heads as they see someone like me win consistently as I win most every shoe I play. In fact; two dealers have asked me to teach them how to play my style and others are intrigued by how I keep my scorecard. Over the last year my shoe winning average is 87%, yes, I keep records.

NOR is “NOT” a mechanical system as we know that all mechanical systems fail badly. Once you obtain the knowledge of NOR, you can evaluate any shoe in less than a minute and know precisely what to bet on the first hand you play knowing that you have an advantage to walk away with winnings. The shoe actually talks to you.. sounds crazy eh? But it works

At $600 for the NOR Manual and membership, It’s a BARGAIN!

DON’T BE CHEAP….. Now Buck Up!


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