Trip Report - please feel free to critique...

[Quizzical1]

Hi All,

Played yesterday at Sands PA and here are my results:

The Good:

Out of five shoes played I won four: 9,8,8,5 units

The Bad:

All shoes had to be started from the beginning. It seems there are never any empty seats available mid-shoe at any table for me to jump in.

The Ugly:

I committed the mortal sin on shoe five of trying to save a losing game. It went -8 units by hand 12 and I thought I could save it and finally went belly-up at -18. I'm even embarassed to write this, but wanted to be honest.

I was still up +12 units at the end of the day so all was not lost.

When starting a new shoe from hand one it seems to me the best course of action is to start in OTB4L mode until the OR count breaks either direction confirming a switch to another system (- for F, + for S40) or stay in OTB4L if the shoe OR count stays between -3 to +3 (I think Ellis wrote about this on the other OR count thread?).

Am I doing it right or is there a better way? Thoughts greatly appreciated?

Glenn

[PeterUK]

Hi Glen,

I don't think you should start on Hand one to begin with... assess the shoe and see what it's telling you after a few hands, check the OR count and then apply appropriate system. In NOR+ we apply OTB4L at the start but that is after when you have a firm grasp of NOR.

A freebie from Ellis on how to pick Modes: http://www.beatthecasino.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7708

Risk Management (purpose is to minimise losses):

- Have a plan and stick to it... Enter & Exit Strategy

- Stop Loss at -8 Units, and move your Stop-Loss up as you pass 6 Units and next +5 Units (known as Trailing Stop-Loss in Trading)

- Exit depending on Betting Progression i.e. 1,2,3 at 10+ Units. 2,3,4 at 20+ Units buy 4th Column

- Leave your emotions aside... I'm sure you've learnt a lesson there ;-)

If you ignore this, you increase your RISK and enter the unknown... evaluate the games you Lose in...

The main thing is to WIN consistently and minimise LOSSes... and Strategy is Key... follow it! ;-)

Continue to re-read the NOR Manual as many times as you can... i.e. travelling on your way to work and etc... you'll discover something new every time...

You could have been up +22 Units ;-)

Peter

[Wendel]

HI Glenn,

I have a tough time starting a shoe from the top as well. I sit out as many hands as I can until I think I can see what is going

on.

Having said that I usually lean toward OTB4L until I see a clearer indication. Reviewing several shoes from your casino , might give you some idea

of the character of the first column at that casino in general at the time you play.

I also identify the tables and game # on my scorecard (luckily , I only have 2 tables) in case these tables have different card preps.

Wendel

[Quizzical1]

Hi Glen,

I don't think you should start on Hand one to begin with... assess the shoe and see what it's telling you after a few hands, check the OR count and then apply appropriate system. In NOR+ we apply OTB4L at the start but that is after when you have a firm grasp of NOR.

A freebie from Ellis on how to pick Modes: http://www.beatthecasino.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7708

Risk Management (purpose is to minimise losses):

- Have a plan and stick to it... Enter & Exit Strategy

- Stop Loss at -8 Units, and move your Stop-Loss up as you pass 6 Units and next +5 Units (known as Trailing Stop-Loss in Trading)

- Exit depending on Betting Progression i.e. 1,2,3 at 10+ Units. 2,3,4 at 20+ Units buy 4th Column

- Leave your emotions aside... I'm sure you've learnt a lesson there ;-)

If you ignore this, you increase your RISK and enter the unknown... evaluate the games you Lose in...

The main thing is to WIN consistently and minimise LOSSes... and Strategy is Key... follow it! ;-)

Continue to re-read the NOR Manual as many times as you can... i.e. travelling on your way to work and etc... you'll discover something new every time...

You could have been up +22 Units ;-)

Peter

Thanks Peter,

Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of skipping the 1st bet of a new shoe since it's usually just me. Then all the other players show up (usually Asian - seems to be their modus operandi).

Thanks for the link to Ellis post too - that's the one I was referring to.

Glenn

[Quizzical1]

HI Glenn,

I have a tough time starting a shoe from the top as well. I sit out as many hands as I can until I think I can see what is going

on.

Having said that I usually lean toward OTB4L until I see a clearer indication. Reviewing several shoes from your casino , might give you some idea

of the character of the first column at that casino in general at the time you play.

I also identify the tables and game # on my scorecard (luckily , I only have 2 tables) in case these tables have different card preps.

Wendel

Thanks Wendel,

Yes, I'm reviewing the scorecards as a matter of fact today to see if there is a pattern. So far, it seems starting out OTB4L for the 1st 10 hands or so is the safest bet.

Glenn

[kachatz1]

Not there, so can't compare.

Wondering you bet $25 each side? Will they let you " roll it" ?

Most casinos will do this, as at least they pick up the commish on Banker Wins...

This doesn't work, I have another idea for you...

[kramden]

hi guys!

Sands PA allows you to bet both sides on the $25 tables. The $50 and higher tables

they give you free hands.

Sometimes the pit bosses can be total jerk-...s though. I have played

the quarter tables to warm up, won a bunch of units (usually flat betting), then went to the high limit room

to play blacks, and they wouldnt allow any more than 1 free hand. Watch me on the camera much?

So then it doesnt take long for more people to show up and then you get free hands.

So dont be afraid to ask if you can bet both sides no matter which

casino you are at. Rules can be bent, especially if you are winning.

kramden

[kramden]

Oh and Glenn,

My only critique(lessons learned need not be repeated,haha) is that it is my

opinion also that you never start betting on the first hand. I play different ways, but one thing

is for sure, you must watch to see what the shoe is doing at each particular

moment in time. NOR is based on this principle. Always wait patiently and evaluate the shoe

at all times. (Especially important when using a progression as the damage can be severe)

If ever in doubt, w.....

Nice job on your win!!!

[Norm A]

Not there, so can't compare.

Wondering you bet $25 each side? Will they let you " roll it" ?

Most casinos will do this, as at least they pick up the commish on Banker Wins...

This doesn't work, I have another idea for you...

The Grand Casino in Biloxi will not let you roll, when I go to the Grand I go with a friend he plays banker I play player and this is how we roll. We split the commissions.

At one time the hard rock Casino in Florida would not let you roll but the last I heard, now they are letting you roll.

It seems pretty dumb and stupid that casino would not let you roll when they can make money on commissions otherwise if no one else is at the table they are making nothing, go figure.

As for shoe start in my opinion you need history before starting to bet regardless what system you are using.

You are not going to get any good history that tells you anything in the first 4or5 hands, personally I don't start betting till about the 15th or 20th hand with some good strong history, (in most cases, there are some exceptions) even then if I don't get any good triggers or see something worth betting on I will continue wait.

Take a look and review all your previous score cards, I think you will find that the majority of the time the losses are in the beginning of the shoe, starting to bet too early without some history is nothing but a crap shot.

[Quizzical1]

Thanks kachatz1 and kramden,

I never thought to ask betting P and B to help "prime the pump" if needed, but def will next time I'm the sole player.

Went to Parx today and sat in on a new shoe (others were already seated from previous shoe) and let the others bet the first four hands. I used OTB4L starting with table min bets ($15) keeping track of the OR count and once it split above +5 switched to S40 and got my +8 units ($25) in about 20 mins or so after 19 hands. Packed it in and left.

Glenn

[Quizzical1]

Thanks NormA,

I will review my scorecards. To date, only one stands out as a definite history early-on. It was a 9 iar P right from the start then switched to a 5 iar B - def a (-) F shoe.

Glenn

[Wendel]

One other thing I am considering trying is to just flat bet the table minimum on the same side as the majority of players,

or the second best player at the table(you being the first best) until the nature of the table becomes clearer.

[Norm A]

One other thing I am considering trying is to just flat bet the table minimum on the same side as the majority of players,

or the second best player at the table(you being the first best) until the nature of the table becomes clearer.

No need to, save your money just another crap shoot, stick with your system and wait for the right opportunity.

I have said it a 1,000 times, "when in doubt wait it out" be patient. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

[Guest]

No need to, save your money just another crap shoot, stick with your system and wait for the right opportunity.

I have said it a 1,000 times, "when in doubt wait it out" be patient. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

I second that motion! Even if you were to try something like that you would probably do best by betting AGAINST the majority of the table. Remember, overall, the other players lose at a virtually impossible rate.

[Guest]

Being careful not to mention any Nationalities here I've noted over the years that one of the most common ways other players play is they pick out what appears to them to be a loser and then bet dead against them. Ha, they even look at this target player with distain as if that could possibly help! Perhaps you too, have noticed this. There is just no limit to the human imagination. They invent enemies!

[Quizzical1]

Being careful not to mention any Nationalities here I've noted over the years that one of the most common ways other players play is they pick out what appears to them to be a loser and then bet dead against them. Ha, they even look at this target player with distain as if that could possibly help! Perhaps you too, have noticed this. There is just no limit to the human imagination. They invent enemies!

Thanks Ellis, yes I've noticed this also.

Whenever I won a hand that one particular pair of gentlemen at my table lost (after analyzing their scorecard and discussing amongst themselves) they would always bet heavily on the next hand the same as my bet. When I lost and they won, they would ignore me completely.

To be clear - I am in NO way trying to single out any nationality at all - nor am I poking fun at anyone. Just noticing that the majority of Baccarat players (99%) where I play happen to be Asian. And regardless of where I play, the method is the same. Not one starts a table playing alone. But once a game is started, all seats are filled by the 4th hand, which from what I remember, is where the tote board "Roads" start to fill in so patterns can be predicted.

Interesting side note:

I noticed there is no "4" seat position at the Mini Bac tables. Upon inquiring, the dealer explained that the Cantonese word for "four" sounds very similar to their word for "death". Additionally, he went on to say that if a 4 is drawn as the burn card at the start of a shoe, many Asians will leave the table considering it a bad luck shoe.

Glenn

[Quizzical1]

Not there, so can't compare.

Wondering you bet $25 each side? Will they let you " roll it" ?

Most casinos will do this, as at least they pick up the commish on Banker Wins...

This doesn't work, I have another idea for you...

Thanks kachatz1,

I know for a fact that my closest casino, Parx (near PHL), doesn't allow betting both P and B at the same time. I tried the same thing at craps last year (P and DP) and was told it was not allowed.

Might I ask what your other idea is?

Glenn

[kachatz1]

I have used the approach described earlier in this thread

Just bring a friend/ wife/ Partner and they bet one side you bet the other

This is just where you are looking to evaluate the shoe, especially in the beginning

Seems a big hassle I know, but if stuck with this is the only way and nobody else is playing and dealer will not allow free hands or to roll the shoe, and no other casinos nearby sometimes it's all you can do

One last thought...they may allow you to Roll the shoe of you bet different amounts on Player and Banker, even if only $5.00 difference...

Good luck, and reexamine the thread about starting a shor( recent Ellis webinar) might help as well

[Quizzical1]

I have used the approach described earlier in this thread

Just bring a friend/ wife/ Partner and they bet one side you bet the other

This is just where you are looking to evaluate the shoe, especially in the beginning

Seems a big hassle I know, but if stuck with this is the only way and nobody else is playing and dealer will not allow free hands or to roll the shoe, and no other casinos nearby sometimes it's all you can do

One last thought...they may allow you to Roll the shoe of you bet different amounts on Player and Banker, even if only $5.00 difference...

Good luck, and reexamine the thread about starting a shor( recent Ellis webinar) might help as well

Thanks kachatz1