Review of the 4D Seminar video....

[Quizzical1]

After viewing all 4+ hours of the video here’s my review:

PREFACE – I WRITE THIS WITH THE UTMOST RESPECT FOR ELLIS AND ALL WHO CONTRIBUTED.

Ellis did an excellent job explaining net betting and what to watch for as far as trigger points to enter the shoe and when to switch to SS betting from watching the disparity count values / range.

As far as 4D education – there is still a lot of people that do not understand the mechanics of how to use the +/- columns properly. Much time was spent trying to explain how this is done and even the most experienced with it (Ellis and Keith) were making common accounting error mistakes in disparity counts that added to the confusion.

The last 25 minutes of Part 3 it was suggested by someone in the group – and I agree wholeheartedly - that instead of list a bunch of P/B outcomes and how to play them, that they go step-by-step through a shoe. This ended in pretty much mass confusion with wrong counts and wrong usage of the +/- columns. Also, it actually ran into the exact scenario I did when trying to apply it in the casino – once you get past filling in the disparity counts properly and using the +/- columns properly you sometimes run into a scenario where two (or more) counts are the same. Now you have an ambiguous condition.

Lastly they tried switching to SS 2 hi betting (Net Betting the bias) after losing the 4 bet which didn’t work either ending with a partial shoe that lost 5 in a row.

From what I saw, I doubt many are using this version of 4D – as I viewed it on the video – in casinos at “casino speed” since no one in the room – sans Ellis – was able to determine the next bet quickly at all. And accounting errors (counts) were made which would affect the bet strategy. Maybe using the PHP 4D Analyser like demonstrated earlier in the video would help keep all counts correct during this.

SUGGESTION:

Ellis, you mentioned that the two people who have been using this for a few years now with nearly 100% win rate success could not make the seminar. I think a great idea would be to make a soup – to - nuts video showing the person sitting down at a table (someone’s house – doesn’t need to be in a casino). Have a “dealer” with an 8 deck shoe (or computer generated) and deal the shoe hand-by-hand showing how to keep the scores line-by-line, determine next bet and where to place the bet. Then when you run into the issues experienced in the shoe in Part 3 – the solution can be shown step by step by someone who has already “been there – done that” many times. Playing shoes where you already know the outcomes is great for learning, but as you saw in the Part 3 something got lost when the hands were played in real time without knowing what the next outcome would be.

I teach guitar on the side. The standard format is (and you can Youtube any lesson for reference) that you show the piece at standard speed. Then you slow it down - breaking it into small chunks and explaining how and why each step is played the way it is. This, to me, is THE KEY to learning, understanding and finally mastering anything. And best of all - no pages upon pages of instruction - just one video (or videos to break up into sections) for all to reference at their leisure.

[Gil]

Glenn,

You are correct on your assessment. It would be great aid if a supplement to the seminar video is produced explaining the net betting which cause a lot of confusion.

Gil

[Jim Files]

Thanks for the unbiased review, it is much appreciated!

Jim

[BronxAl]

I Need help! Video keeps stopping then, replays at the beginning. Cannot correct problem. Maybe the video is defective?

[Guest]

I Need help! Video keeps stopping then, replays at the beginning. Cannot correct problem. Maybe the video is defective?

It's not the video. It's your connection. I'm out here in the sticks and have the same problem. Do any of you computer guys have a solution?

[Keith Smith]

That is normally caused by a slow connection or packet loss. Click the details tab and download the Video

KS

[PurpleInk]

If possible try lowering the viewing resolution as this places less stress on your connection, video will still sound and look good. This helps me with YouTube quite often.

[Guest]

After viewing all 4+ hours of the video here’s my review:

PREFACE – I WRITE THIS WITH THE UTMOST RESPECT FOR ELLIS AND ALL WHO CONTRIBUTED.

Ellis did an excellent job explaining net betting and what to watch for as far as trigger points to enter the shoe and when to switch to SS betting from watching the disparity count values / range.

As far as 4D education – there is still a lot of people that do not understand the mechanics of how to use the +/- columns properly. Much time was spent trying to explain how this is done and even the most experienced with it (Ellis and Keith) were making common accounting error mistakes in disparity counts that added to the confusion.

The last 25 minutes of Part 3 it was suggested by someone in the group – and I agree wholeheartedly - that instead of list a bunch of P/B outcomes and how to play them, that they go step-by-step through a shoe. This ended in pretty much mass confusion with wrong counts and wrong usage of the +/- columns. Also, it actually ran into the exact scenario I did when trying to apply it in the casino – once you get past filling in the disparity counts properly and using the +/- columns properly you sometimes run into a scenario where two (or more) counts are the same. Now you have an ambiguous condition.

Lastly they tried switching to SS 2 hi betting (Net Betting the bias) after losing the 4 bet which didn’t work either ending with a partial shoe that lost 5 in a row.

From what I saw, I doubt many are using this version of 4D – as I viewed it on the video – in casinos at “casino speed†since no one in the room – sans Ellis – was able to determine the next bet quickly at all. And accounting errors (counts) were made which would affect the bet strategy. Maybe using the PHP 4D Analyser like demonstrated earlier in the video would help keep all counts correct during this.

SUGGESTION:

Ellis, you mentioned that the two people who have been using this for a few years now with nearly 100% win rate success could not make the seminar. I think a great idea would be to make a soup – to - nuts video showing the person sitting down at a table (someone’s house – doesn’t need to be in a casino). Have a “dealer†with an 8 deck shoe (or computer generated) and deal the shoe hand-by-hand showing how to keep the scores line-by-line, determine next bet and where to place the bet. Then when you run into the issues experienced in the shoe in Part 3 – the solution can be shown step by step by someone who has already “been there – done that†many times. Playing shoes where you already know the outcomes is great for learning, but as you saw in the Part 3 something got lost when the hands were played in real time without knowing what the next outcome would be.

I teach guitar on the side. The standard format is (and you can Youtube any lesson for reference) that you show the piece at standard speed. Then you slow it down - breaking it into small chunks and explaining how and why each step is played the way it is. This, to me, is THE KEY to learning, understanding and finally mastering anything. And best of all - no pages upon pages of instruction - just one video (or videos to break up into sections) for all to reference at their leisure.

Well, I don't disagree. Sorry I didn't have the stamina to continue after 6 hours. Few do at any age. That is why there are state laws against it. NYS, for instance, a college professor is limited to 15 hours of classroom teaching per week at a max of 2 hours at a time. There are solid reasons for that based on actual history.

Correct, few there knew how to do even basic PvB straight down net betting. I had planned to get past that in a half hour. I was still at it 4 hours later.

Few could do a simple +1 -1 running count even on PvB let alone OOvTT.

Only one or two knew how to convert PvB cols into even OvR let alone OvT or OOvTT or understand why you would do that. They didn't even understand what + - meant or what such headings were for.

The testers didn't use + - cols. They simply let their progressions zig zag. Can you imagine trying to teach that when you are trying to teach students who can't even grasp straight down PvB net betting and have no idea where their progressions go - up, down or sideways.

Some were stumped back where we put a circle under P when Player wins and a circle under B when Bank wins. I got the question: How do you know which side won? Also, "how do you know which side you are betting?" Also, "how do you know how much to bet?" Also, "they don't have + and - squares on the table - just P and B squares - play the way we have to play." That is what editing is for. We cut nearly 4 hours out of the film.

"We are playing two 1,2,3,4 progressions, one on each side. Each prog goes up 1 when it loses and back to 1 when it wins. Subtract the low entry from the high entry straight across and table bet the difference on the side of the higher entry. Then fill in your running score."

When a 4 loses that side stops betting until it has a win then restarts at 1. Meanwile the other side keeps betting unopposed basing at 2 because it can't lose until the other side wins."

Then I played an entire shoe out on the board play by play where every possible situation came up.

The first question was: "How do you know what your two entries are?"

Sunday I got called out of a game just starting to show a player how to play a shoe he had played. It was pure chop and simple S40 scored an easy +25. When I got back to my seat in the game is was just finished. It was virtually identical to the game I had just played for my student. All our players scored about +25 playing straight S40. That cost me $2000. I didn't play any more after that. I just waited for the airplane in my room, watching TV.

Face to face classes (seminars) are great but they also have a handicap. If you allow questions, you can't go any faster than the slowest student. But if you don't allow questions there is virtually no point in having the class. I had hoped to be finished with the net betting segment in the first half hour - but 4 hours later.... I had hoped to be playing an on line shoe right after lunch but 6 hours into the seminar I was still getting: "How do you know how much to bet and which side to bet it on?"

Filming an actual shoe would cost thousands. I know it sounds like a good idea but I've had our students watch me play hundreds of times - perhaps thousands. It never did a bit of good. You can't learn Baccarat watching someone else any more than you can learn guitar watching someone else.

I think play by play Webinars make more sense. They are far cheaper. One of the students could read out an actual casino shoe play by play at our speed. We have all the time we need to discuss the rule covering every play.

But I think even better than that is play by play explanations on posted shoes and I think the explanation needs to go right along side of the play. I don't know any way to do this other than by hand. Then students can study each play at their own speed and ask whatever questions they have for all to see and learn.

True, amateurs and beginning players are subconciously influenced by the next play. But when true designers get severely burned by this enough times, they learn to totally ignore the next play. I've had 30+ years of experience. I learned this about 25 years ago.

I'm working on play by play shoes but we need complete rules at the same time. We only have conceptual rules at this time. Rules aren't complete until there is always a rule covering the next play with no conflicts - both which side to bet and how much. That is why the heading was "DISCUSSION" of the 4D rather than 4D Manual or 4D Rules.

I'm pretty close on the rules:

For instance you stick with the count you are playing until it is surpassed. You don't react to a tie.

And when two counts tie BEFORE you start playing, the count to the left supersedes.

That takes care of ties.

The count of 7 seems significant. I think 7 means go SS on the high count. BUT, what if your net betting is still going strong??? So, 7 can't be the complete answer. It is only half the answer. But I'm down to such nitty gritty.

While we generally start with net betting, not always. For instance what it a shoe started with a 9iar? BTW Oz would already have hit his stop loss back at 7iar wouldn't he. That is his third losing pattern thus far he was lucky enough not to hit. But John starts SS betting after a starting 4 ZZ or straight. He would already be at +5. The rules need to cover EVERY possibility.

NOR is a great system but it requires player participation. A player must be able to tell a choppy shoe / table from a streaky shoe from a neutral shoe at a glance. He needs to know what is running more than normal vs what is running less. But first he needs to know what is normal. Good NOR players will likely never leave NOR. Others have no clue.

None of this is true of the 4D. Everything is purely mechanical. The counts decide everything. All we need is precise directions on how to use the counts. The rest is fully automated. This takes player decisions out of the equation altogether. But players still need to know how to do the 4 counts.

The + - cols are SUPPOSED to make everything easier.

NOR was a prerequisite.

Then you know opposites from repeats. It should be a tiny jump to put the opposite circles on the + side and the repeat circles on the - side - or the OTB4L circles on one side and the TB4L circles on the other or the 00 circles on one side and the TT circles on the other - whichever count is the lowest. That way you are always net betting straight down just like PvB no matter which count you are net betting. I have no hope that everyone could net bet zig zagging progressions like the testers did and like I always did, even if they color coded like Oz did.

From there you simply net bet your progs straight down and fill in your score. All you need to know from there is when to go SS.

If I sound frustrated its because I'm wondering if I can finish teaching this while still alive.

I'm glad I'm not teaching BJ. There, the first step is to memorize the 500 plays of Basic Strategy. That's before you can START learning how to play the game.

On the other hand, if you were teaching me guitar, I'd probably be asking what the hell are all these wires for?

[Bobby]

Since I joined this forum I've been asking for posted score cards with play by play explanations. Just think it makes more sense to teach this way and will hopefully make things easier for you to Ellis.

[Quizzical1]

Since I joined this forum I've been asking for posted score cards with play by play explanations. Just think it makes more sense to teach this way and will hopefully make things easier for you to Ellis.

Agreed Bobby,

But keep in mind how much detail goes into "written" play-by-play explanations. We haven't seen any yet that I'm aware of and I'm sure this is partly the reason...and a GOOD one at that! It's a helluva lot of work.

It just seemed to me that since they were making the video anyway at the seminar it would be more expedient to go play-by-play on the board while verbally explaining what's going on and why.

[PeterUK]

How friends. How long is the video in total?

Thanks.

Peter

[Quizzical1]

Well, I don't disagree. Sorry I didn't have the stamina to continue after 6 hours. Few do at any age. That is why there are state laws against it. NYS, for instance, a college professor is limited to 15 hours of classroom teaching per week at a max of 2 hours at a time. There are solid reasons for that based on actual history.

Correct, few there knew how to do even basic PvB straight down net betting. I had planned to get past that in a half hour. I was still at it 4 hours later.

Few could do a simple +1 -1 running count even on PvB let alone OOvTT.

Only one or two knew how to convert PvB cols into even OvR let alone OvT or OOvTT or understand why you would do that. They didn't even understand what + - meant or what such headings were for.

The testers didn't use + - cols. They simply let their progressions zig zag. Can you imagine trying to teach that when you are trying to teach students who can't even grasp straight down PvB net betting and have no idea where their progressions go - up, down or sideways.

Some were stumped back where we put a circle under P when Player wins and a circle under B when Bank wins. I got the question: How do you know which side won? Also, "how do you know which side you are betting?" Also, "how do you know how much to bet?" Also, "they don't have + and - squares on the table - just P and B squares - play the way we have to play." That is what editing is for. We cut nearly 4 hours out of the film.

"We are playing two 1,2,3,4 progressions, one on each side. Each prog goes up 1 when it loses and back to 1 when it wins. Subtract the low entry from the high entry straight across and table bet the difference on the side of the higher entry. Then fill in your running score."

When a 4 loses that side stops betting until it has a win then restarts at 1. Meanwile the other side keeps betting unopposed basing at 2 because it can't lose until the other side wins."

Then I played an entire shoe out on the board play by play where every possible situation came up.

The first question was: "How do you know what your two entries are?"

Sunday I got called out of a game just starting to show a player how to play a shoe he had played. It was pure chop and simple S40 scored an easy +25. When I got back to my seat in the game is was just finished. It was virtually identical to the game I had just played for my student. All our players scored about +25 playing straight S40. That cost me $2000. I didn't play any more after that. I just waited for the airplane in my room, watching TV.

Face to face classes (seminars) are great but they also have a handicap. If you allow questions, you can't go any faster than the slowest student. But if you don't allow questions there is virtually no point in having the class. I had hoped to be finished with the net betting segment in the first half hour - but 4 hours later.... I had hoped to be playing an on line shoe right after lunch but 6 hours into the seminar I was still getting: "How do you know how much to bet and which side to bet it on?"

Filming an actual shoe would cost thousands. I know it sounds like a good idea but I've had our students watch me play hundreds of times - perhaps thousands. It never did a bit of good. You can't learn Baccarat watching someone else any more than you can learn guitar watching someone else.

I think play by play Webinars make more sense. They are far cheaper. One of the students could read out an actual casino shoe play by play at our speed. We have all the time we need to discuss the rule covering every play.

But I think even better than that is play by play explanations on posted shoes and I think the explanation needs to go right along side of the play. I don't know any way to do this other than by hand. Then students can study each play at their own speed and ask whatever questions they have for all to see and learn.

True, amateurs and beginning players are subconciously influenced by the next play. But when true designers get severely burned by this enough times, they learn to totally ignore the next play. I've had 30+ years of experience. I learned this about 25 years ago.

I'm working on play by play shoes but we need complete rules at the same time. We only have conceptual rules at this time. Rules aren't complete until there is always a rule covering the next play with no conflicts - both which side to bet and how much. That is why the heading was "DISCUSSION" of the 4D rather than 4D Manual or 4D Rules.

I'm pretty close on the rules:

For instance you stick with the count you are playing until it is surpassed. You don't react to a tie.

And when two counts tie BEFORE you start playing, the count to the left supersedes.

That takes care of ties.

The count of 7 seems significant. I think 7 means go SS on the high count. BUT, what if your net betting is still going strong??? So, 7 can't be the complete answer. It is only half the answer. But I'm down to such nitty gritty.

While we generally start with net betting, not always. For instance what it a shoe started with a 9iar? BTW Oz would already have hit his stop loss back at 7iar wouldn't he. That is his third losing pattern thus far he was lucky enough not to hit. But John starts SS betting after a starting 4 ZZ or straight. He would already be at +5. The rules need to cover EVERY possibility.

NOR is a great system but it requires player participation. A player must be able to tell a choppy shoe / table from a streaky shoe from a neutral shoe at a glance. He needs to know what is running more than normal vs what is running less. But first he needs to know what is normal. Good NOR players will likely never leave NOR. Others have no clue.

None of this is true of the 4D. Everything is purely mechanical. The counts decide everything. All we need is precise directions on how to use the counts. The rest is fully automated. This takes player decisions out of the equation altogether. But players still need to know how to do the 4 counts.

The + - cols are SUPPOSED to make everything easier.

NOR was a prerequisite.

Then you know opposites from repeats. It should be a tiny jump to put the opposite circles on the + side and the repeat circles on the - side - or the OTB4L circles on one side and the TB4L circles on the other or the 00 circles on one side and the TT circles on the other - whichever count is the lowest. That way you are always net betting straight down just like PvB no matter which count you are net betting. I have no hope that everyone could net bet zig zagging progressions like the testers did and like I always did, even if they color coded like Oz did.

From there you simply net bet your progs straight down and fill in your score. All you need to know from there is when to go SS.

If I sound frustrated its because I'm wondering if I can finish teaching this while still alive.

I'm glad I'm not teaching BJ. There, the first step is to memorize the 500 plays of Basic Strategy. That's before you can START learning how to play the game.

On the other hand, if you were teaching me guitar, I'd probably be asking what the hell are all these wires for?

Ellis,

I get it - and I don't want to look like the "art critic" here who nitpicks every detail of what I'm sure was a lot of effort on you as well as others. Trust me, being a Design Engineer by trade I'm used to having people not involved in the process critiquing a new product I spent months developing. It gets VERY frustrating.

Maybe it's just me, but I saw a spark of "something" there in the last 20 minutes of Pt 3 where you and Keith were at the board and someone was calling out the hand outcomes. I thought it'd be great for you to:

1. Enter the outcome P or B.

2. Enter the counts for P/B, O/R, O/T, OO/TT.

3. Determine the lowest disparity (closest to zero, correct?).

4. Determine the net bet value for the +/- column.

NOTE: Maybe it would help some to understand that the +/- column could have a spin box above it reflecting the lowest count parameter (P/B, O/R, O/T or OO/TT) thus far in the shoe.

5. Enter the bet value determined from the +/- net bet columns in the next row under P or B (where the hand outcomes go not the P/B column for disparity scores).

6. Have the "caller" reveal the next outcome.

7. Determine score thus far.

8. Discuss verbally what happened.

Just a thought....

[LOU30]

Glen,

I wrote this yesterday but when I tried to post it just disappeared in to cyber space...(so here's a shortened version)

I totally agree with what you said,but I think the problem was that some of the students where no-where near ready to learn the 4D method.

As Ellis said over 3 months ago "4D is not for everyone ".

He then went on to write numerous posts on all the aspects of the 4D method and Peter UK made two fantastic learning tools to assist us all in our learning(one of which done basically everything but place your bets for you).

Ellis also told us we must have to totally understand all the aspects of NOR, NOR+ and Net betting!Before even thinking of tackling 4D.

So I don't know if the members who attended the seminar had only just joined the forum and in that case should still be studying NOR or NOR+...and for the members who were here 3 months ago had not done sufficient home work!!! As what was covered in the seminar is already on the forum.

Anyway like you I would like to see some form of video/webinar of a full shoe being played out.

Thanks to Ellis and Keith for the seminar.

And guys please take note of Glens quote!!! Do your home work...

[PeterUK]

Blank, can't delete

[Guest]

Ellis,

I get it - and I don't want to look like the "art critic" here who nitpicks every detail of what I'm sure was a lot of effort on you as well as others. Trust me, being a Design Engineer by trade I'm used to having people not involved in the process critiquing a new product I spent months developing. It gets VERY frustrating.

Maybe it's just me, but I saw a spark of "something" there in the last 20 minutes of Pt 3 where you and Keith were at the board and someone was calling out the hand outcomes. I thought it'd be great for you to:

1. Enter the outcome P or B.

2. Enter the counts for P/B, O/R, O/T, OO/TT.

3. Determine the lowest disparity (closest to zero, correct?).

4. Determine the net bet value for the +/- column.

NOTE: Maybe it would help some to understand that the +/- column could have a spin box above it reflecting the lowest count parameter (P/B, O/R, O/T or OO/TT) thus far in the shoe.

5. Enter the bet value determined from the +/- net bet columns in the next row under P or B (where the hand outcomes go not the P/B column for disparity scores).

6. Have the "caller" reveal the next outcome.

7. Determine score thus far.

8. Discuss verbally what happened.

Just a thought....

There was a spark! Students were getting it. Unfortunately we only had 15 minutes left to play. If I had it to do over again I'd have scheduled that seminar for two days.

There were a few there who knew the 4D very well and were casino ready. They played very well afterward.

But at least I learned where all the stumbling blocks are so it clued me in on how the 4D needs to be taught. That will help.

I think the major problem was that the students didn't grasp the basic concept. So they saw no silver lining - no goal - no future.

I think I short changed the basic concept at the very beginning. In a way, Oz was a distraction. But his contribution can serve a higher purpose.

Don't forget that extensive testing of simply net betting OvT 2Hi and then SS betting the winner conclusively demonstrated a 53% hit rate. That is HUGE news in the Baccarat world. Outside of BTC that has NEVER been done before in the history of Baccarat.

But look at the comparison! Oz net betted one disparity W/O ANY screening. OvT is probably the worst disparity to pick.

The 4D net bets the verified best of 4 disparities.

Then Oz SS bets the winner. That will be one of the lowest of 8 counts.

The 4D SS bets the highest of 8 counts.

What is all that going to do to a 53% hands won rate. 56? 57? higher? Testing can tell us exactly.

Suppose we check out to 57%. That means the casino hit rate against us is 43%. That would be a 14% advantage in hit rate over the casino. Now throw progressions on top of that. The higher your hit rate the more advantage progressions gain you.

We are talking an even higher advantage than I had in BJ - and I never had a losing day. We are talking the highest advantage in the history of gaming including the MIT teams.

I think if I give the students more to look forward to they will be more eager to study, practice and learn.

Then I need to teach one step at a time and recommend drills to get each step down pat. I need to assume the student knows nothing and go from there.

Then, yes, after some play by plays, we need to actually play some shoes much the way you describe. We'll get there.

I apologize for my lack of enthusiam this morning. I was rebounding from Norm's death. Not a good time to write.

Oh, Keith may have found a way to get around that film stoppage problem. Haven't had a chance to look at it yet.

Just finished a beer so I'll stop writing for tonight. One left out of a 12 pack I bought almost a year ago. Corona Extra. Good Mexican stuff.

[PeterUK]

Blank Error

[PeterUK]

Greetings,

Feedback for Ellis and Keith is great for future improvements... but for those who are thinking in the wrong direction... do keep in mind that for the price of the seminar video and for what it is... a recorded seminar with stuff edited out... You have a real bargain! There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes that most people don't get to see... thus editing is a great tool!

If they had to work more on a step-by-step tutorial, guide, educational video, which costs time and money, they would be right to charge way more for the seminar and probably in the $1000's, that is if you believe they can truly teach you the knowledge to win at Baccarat consistently... and get a return on your investment? ;-)

Also 4D is an advance concept, beginners should master NOR, NOR+, learn the jargon, scorecard system, theory behind the concepts and etc in the NOR forum, otherwise it'll be very hard to grasp... Take simple baby steps.... Don't run before you've learnt to crawl, or else you may not be able to get up again when you fall... most give up at this point.

Peter

Clarification: Keith is working on the PHP 4D web tool, I'm working on the Excel Spreadsheet (continually work in progress) - joint effort on different platforms

[Guest]

Since I joined this forum I've been asking for posted score cards with play by play explanations. Just think it makes more sense to teach this way and will hopefully make things easier for you to Ellis.

Bobby, perhaps you don't know. We had hundreds of posted shoes and play by plays posted just a few months ago. Thousands of hours of preparation. Our site was hacked probably by kids and just for fun. Keith was able to restore most of it but not the shoes. I won't live long enough to do all that over again.

[harrican]

Bobby, perhaps you don't know. We had hundreds of posted shoes and play by plays posted just a few months ago. Thousands of hours of preparation. Our site was hacked probably by kids and just for fun. Keith was able to restore most of it but not the shoes. I won't live long enough to do all that over again.

I think they are not asking for hundreds of shoes.. maybe just 1 or 2 shoes to start with.. would that be too much to ask?

[Bobby]

I'm sorry to hear about the hacking of the site. Must have happened just before I joined.

Agreed Harrican, I would love to see as many shoes as possible with play by plays to study and learn but I think we'd be happy with a few score cards to start out with. It seems that the 4D rules are being updated everyday so what I would suggest is Ellis or Keith post the most up to date rules along with a shoe or two with the play by play that explains all the different scenarios and the rules as the shoe is going along. I think it's a reasonable request.

[BigVic]

I think they are not asking for hundreds of shoes.. maybe just 1 or 2 shoes to start with.. would that be too much to ask?

One would think it wouldn't be. Hell, just 1 shoe, or even a partial made up shoe just to demonstrate the mechanics of the 4D.

Back in the day when the U2HiSAP was being taught there were example shoes. I remember that helped quite a lot.

[Guest]

One would think it wouldn't be. Hell, just 1 shoe, or even a partial made up shoe just to demonstrate the mechanics of the 4D.

Back in the day when the U2HiSAP was being taught there were example shoes. I remember that helped quite a lot.

Well, as I said 2 days ago, that is what I'm working on. But I can't post shoes W/O complete hard rules so I'm working on that at the same time. Right now all we have is conceptual rules. We need hard rules that always cover the next play. I thought I'd get some help in the discussion thread but apparantly that is not going to be the case.

This first shoe I happened to pick simply because it was on the top of the pile. It scores OK but it is particularly busy. It starts out with an OTB4L run. The testers jumped on anytime a shoe started with a run of 4. So this happens to be one of the very few times we are net betting and SS betting at the same time - a dandy for a first shoe. So I need a simple way to incorporate this on the score card.

I've decided not to put the P/B count in the B column because the PB cols are the most logical place to SS bet the few times that comes up. So my headings include a P/B count col. So my headings are # P B 1 2 3 4 + - S. That is probably more understandable anyway.

So OK we know to also SS bet when a shoe starts out with any run of 4. But what is our signal to stop SS betting??? We could say when another count goes higher. I don't at all like the idea of playing to a losing 4. But in this case, counts 3 and 4 both go neck and neck all the way to 9. Sometimes one is ahead a little and sometimes the other.

So I'll play it that the highest count always determines the next SS play. And the lowest count always determines the next net bet play.

I think the magic number is 5. When the high count comes down to 5, and when the low count gets up to 5, we stop. Hopefully that gets us out before a losing 4 - usually - for both net betting and SS betting. Keeps it simple and gives us solid quit points.

[Guest]

Ed Gil left the question on my voice mail and it should also be here on the forum someplace how to do the OO/TT count???

OK, first, OO/TT stands for: Opposite the time before the time before last vs the time before the time before last.

But it is a whole lot simpler to say: is the current circle opposite (+) or the same as (-) what happened 3 plays ago. On the running count we add 1 for Opposite or subtract 1 for Repeat (same as).

Recognize that for the O/T count (Opposite the time before last vs the time before last) we are comparing to what happened TWO plays ago. The OO/TT count is the same except we are comparing to THREE plays ago.

OR you are comparing to 1 play ago. OT you are comparing to 2 plays ago. OOTT you are comparing to 3 pays ago. Simple as 123.

OOTT can be a little confusing the first time you try it. So here is what you do. You have the circle on your card for the last play (the current circle). If you are right handed put your left index finger horizontally over the two circles above the current circle. Now, is the circle above your finger Opposite (+1) or the same as (-1) the circle below your finger. After a while you won't need your finger anymore. But keep it anyway.

Now, to do your + - conversion cols: if it is Opposite, you put your circle under + and if it is same as, you put your circle under -.

No matter which of the 4 counts you are playing + is always P or Opposite. - is always B or same as.

If you do your conversion circles correctly both of your net bet 1234 progs run straight down - one down the left side (+) and one down the right side (-).

Each prog independently goes up 1 if uncircled or back to 1 if circled.

Then you net bet your + - cols just as if they were P B cols.

You need to be able to quickly and automatically do your counts before you can attempt the 4D. Here is the drill.

Take any shoe on a score card where the circles have been drawn in.

First do your PB count under the heading of 1. Starting at play 1, it is +1 for a P and -1 for a B.

Then do your OR count under the heading of 2. Starting at play 2, it is +1 for an Opposite and -1 for a Repeat.

Then do your OT count under the heading of 3. Starting at play 3 it is +1 for an OTB4L circle and -1 for a TB4L circle. Or said another way, it is +1 for Opposite 2 plays ago and -1 for same as 2 plays ago.

Then do your OO/TT count under the heading of 4 starting at play#4. +1 for Opposite 3 plays ago and -1 for same as 3 plays ago.

Practice that until you can do all 4 counts automatically and W/O hesitation.

Then practice filling in your + - conversion circles. You are filling these cols in only for the lowest count.

P and all three O's put a circle on the left under + .

B and all 3 same as put a circle on the right under - .

But practice this on your practice shoes with 4 sets of + - cols. Fill them in all 4 counts instead of 1 set for the lowest count.

You'll find that your PB circles are the same as your original PB circles. But the other 3 counts are NOT the same.

Practice this until you can fill in your + - cols W/O hesitation.

With sufficient practice of these drills, for most only several shoes, You should be able to COMFORTABLY fill in you score card from # to S in a matter of split seconds and still be first to get you next bet up. On average you have about 30 seconds each play but you should only need 3, comfortably. If you need more, you aren't finished practicing.

Of course it is best to already have your play numbers and your headings in before you start the shoe.

If after several practice shoes, you find that you simply can't do all this in the time alloted, NOR is the right system for you. And with this post, if you still can't fill in a 4D score card, no amount of posted shoes is going to help.

Question: Ellis, what if you see a perfect NOR tote board? Are you still going to play 4D.

Answer: Hell no. NOR gets the best scores in the best NOR shoes. 4D is best when you have no clue. I think the 4D is usually best for preshuffled cards. All of Las Vegas is preshuffled. But even then you sometimes get great NOR shoes.

[Bobby]

So I guess that's a NO to posting a filled out 4D score card

[LOU30]

Regarding the score card headings,

''I've decided not to put the P/B count in the B column because the PB cols are the most logical place to SS bet the few times that comes up. So my headings include a P/B count col. So my headings are # P B 1 2 3 4 + - S. That is probably more understandable anyway. ''

There seems to be some confusion over the headings and converting them over from O/R,O/T and OO/TT and now we have added P/B column as well giving us the heading s of : P B 1 2 3 4 + - S.

Using the KISS principle how about using the :

Number 1 for one play ago= O/R

Number 2 for two plays ago= O/T

Number 3 for three plays ago=OO/TT

So at a glance/casino speed you can easily see if the play was 1/2/3 plays ago instead of was it O/R_O/T_OO/TT...

Now all we need is another heading for the new P/B column! how about Lower case p/b? As we know the first P B are for circles

P B p/b 1 2 3 + - S = P B p/b O/R O/T OO/TT + - S or P B 1 2 3 4 + - S.

it might help...

Keep It Simple Stupid.