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Is there a way for us to incorporate the idea of the two highest SAP counts to determine the correct system to play?

I like the rules posted about what to do in case of ties, it's just the hard rule that whichever one of the counts is highest, that is the system to follow. I would think that will work for the 4+ count using S4+, but when the 2's are highest with 1's next highest, I have had more luck with S1 than using S23 in that situation.

Obviously if you got a long TT run and the 2's SAP count increased way up there, S23 would be better. Maybe we could work in a spread difference between 1's and 2's before switching from S1 to S23 when the 2's count is highest and 1's count the next highest? Just a thought.

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Is there a way for us to incorporate the idea of the two highest SAP counts to determine the correct system to play?

I like the rules posted about what to do in case of ties, it's just the hard rule that whichever one of the counts is highest, that is the system to follow. I would think that will work for the 4+ count using S4+, but when the 2's are highest with 1's next highest, I have had more luck with S1 than using S23 in that situation.

Obviously if you got a long TT run and the 2's SAP count increased way up there, S23 would be better. Maybe we could work in a spread difference between 1's and 2's before switching from S1 to S23 when the 2's count is highest and 1's count the next highest? Just a thought.

Yes BUT:

First: the rules, as complex as they already are, need to be concise enough for the average player to follow.

Second:

S40 likes 1's MOST and 2s second most

OTB4L likes 2s MOST and 3s second most

S40M1 likes 1s most and 4+s 2nd most.

I think we've got to go with "most".

I've never been able to get players to even grasp what event each system likes most, let alone 2nd most and let alone what they DON't Like.

Players like a crutch like the OR count.

In MDB their crutch is an SAP count.

In my experience players will have their hands full remembering which system goes with which high count

let alone the highest two counts.

I think if we try to match the highest 2 counts to the correct system most will simply give up and blame the Designer.

I already stated which system goes with the highest two counts. That effort will be totally lost on most players.

However it will be VERY meaningfull to our best players.

Some players will have their hands full averaging +5. Hence the MDB schedule is based on +5.

I expect our best players to average at least +7 mostly through tricks of the trade. They can go through the million dollar schedule much faster.

Our best players will conform the hard rules to their own liking.

Our best players "SEE" the overall MDB strategy.

Our average player just follows rules with little understanding of why the rules are as they are.

I realize how pessimistic this sounds. But I also know that the "players" who criticize me on other forums are the very SAME guys who can't follow even the most basic of rules - the same players who cannot grasp overall concepts. Somehow they blame me rather than themselves. These guys also believe that all winners are liars. When they watch me win they claim I cheated. The same guys who want something for nothing.

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Hi Ellis,

so far your MDB rules are superb, but there is no mention of zz runs.

Are we playing zz runs the same way as the ST runs ?

Thanks

Recognize that S40 and M1 are automatically ON ZZ runs with their primary progs.

So only OTB4L is concerned with ZZs. This is fully explained in the rules.

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Timing on this couldn't be better. Headed to Vegas tomorrow and will be trying multiple casinos. I have the official rules thread printed out, so I can read it every hour on the plane :)

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.  Figure out a way to win at baccarat that fits your lifestyle, you don't have to eat fish anymore!

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Timing on this couldn't be better. Headed to Vegas tomorrow and will be trying multiple casinos. I have the official rules thread printed out, so I can read it every hour on the plane :)

Now that is what I call devotion.

My money says that Mike will be one of the first to actually make a million dollars.

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Gman, you guys got that from me. I'm the one who told you that mechanical systems like TBL can't win. They break even long term and then you owe commission. That is pure mathematical fact.

MDB is not in that class. Unlike TBL. MDB does include a lot of decision making. TBL doesn't - every bet is decided by the last two plays regardless of shoe type.

With MDB decisions are constantly made. But you don't make them because they have been automated. SAP and the outcome of 0 bets makes all the decisions for you. It is not the same thing at all.

TBL and all mechanical systems have no way to set up mathematical entrapments. MDB does.

Mechanical systems ignore shoe type. MDB functions on shoe type.

Whenever the highest SAP count changes, MDB changes your system to agree with what the shoe is doing right now. TBL never changes. It just keeps doing the same thing right or wrong.

Do you see the difference?

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I have not yet included shoe starts in the rules.

I think the best shoe starts depend on whether you are playing regular or preshuffled cards.

With regular (biased) cards I think it best to wait until SAP forms an opinion. About play 7 depending on the shoe.

But with preshuffled (non biased) cards, I don't think that waiting helps with new cards. Maybe with older cards if a bias is noted.

With preshuffled, I also question the value of waiting for a winning 1 to bet 2. We may be doing ourselves more harm than good.

I think the question of recomended shoe starts needs further study.

It would help a great deal if you guys would declare which card type when you post shoes.

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I have not yet included shoe starts in the rules.

I think the best shoe starts depend on whether you are playing regular or preshuffled cards.

With regular (biased) cards I think it best to wait until SAP forms an opinion. About play 7 depending on the shoe.

But with preshuffled (non biased) cards, I don't think that waiting helps with new cards. Maybe with older cards if a bias is noted.

With preshuffled, I also question the value of waiting for a winning 1 to bet 2. We may be doing ourselves more harm than good.

I think the question of recomended shoe starts needs further study.

It would help a great deal if you guys would declare which card type when you post shoes.

Dumb question time:

Forgive me, Ellis - you probably answered already.

How can I tell if the casino's cards are regular or preshuffled?

Glenn

Regards,

Glenn

"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration...do your homework" Thomas A. Edison

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Now that is what I call devotion.

My money says that Mike will be one of the first to actually make a million dollars.

Thanks Ellis. Coming from the master, that means a lot. My money says I'll make it sometime this year or go broke trying :)

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.  Figure out a way to win at baccarat that fits your lifestyle, you don't have to eat fish anymore!

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Dumb question time:

Forgive me, Ellis - you probably answered already.

How can I tell if the casino's cards are regular or preshuffled?

Glenn

You can guarantee they are preshuffled by playing a touch game and watching them take them outside the box to prep them. That's generally available at $100 minimum and up, however some casinos will allow it for $50.

Ellis, I have a more detailed question ---

When the cards come preshuffled to the table on a NO-touch game where they get recycled all day in an alternating pattern via shufflemaster, would you still call that preshuffled?

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.  Figure out a way to win at baccarat that fits your lifestyle, you don't have to eat fish anymore!

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You can guarantee they are preshuffled by playing a touch game and watching them take them outside the box to prep them. That's generally available at $100 minimum and up, however some casinos will allow it for $50.

Ellis, I have a more detailed question ---

When the cards come preshuffled to the table on a NO-touch game where they get recycled all day in an alternating pattern via shufflemaster, would you still call that preshuffled?

Thanks Mike,

Have you noticed any difference between the mini (no touch) and midi (touch) bac tables as far as difficulty of shoes?

Regards,

Glenn

"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration...do your homework" Thomas A. Edison

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I have not yet included shoe starts in the rules.

I think the best shoe starts depend on whether you are playing regular or preshuffled cards.

With regular (biased) cards I think it best to wait until SAP forms an opinion. About play 7 depending on the shoe.

But with preshuffled (non biased) cards, I don't think that waiting helps with new cards. Maybe with older cards if a bias is noted.

With preshuffled, I also question the value of waiting for a winning 1 to bet 2. We may be doing ourselves more harm than good.

I think the question of recomended shoe starts needs further study.

It would help a great deal if you guys would declare which card type when you post shoes.

A quick note on shoe starts. I have found two shoe start combinations that are quick losers to MDB.

They are 3,4 and 4,2.

As the rules are set now, starting at play 2 with S1, you are done with a -5 at play 7 with a 3,4 start and done with a -5 at play 6 with a 4,2 start.

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Thanks Ellis. Coming from the master, that means a lot. My money says I'll make it sometime this year or go broke trying :)

Go for it Mike!

Just finished a lovely morning at Baltusrol and heading to Vegas tonight. Mike, I will call or txt you when I arrive tonight.

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A quick note on shoe starts. I have found two shoe start combinations that are quick losers to MDB.

They are 3,4 and 4,2.

As the rules are set now, starting at play 2 with S1, you are done with a -5 at play 7 with a 3,4 start and done with a -5 at play 6 with a 4,2 start.

Same here...maybe waiting for an event to happen first before betting is what's needed.

Regards,

Glenn

"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration...do your homework" Thomas A. Edison

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Same here...maybe waiting for an event to happen first before betting is what's needed.

An event or more. I still like entering a shoe with a little history to work with (2-4 events). Yes, it is possible you missed out on a great S40 start and a few units. But in many shoes you will hit your stop loss and miss out on what might be a winning shoe. It can go both ways, and in my experience, one way doesn't dominate in occurance over the other. So with a goal of +5, I generally prefer starting with some SAP knowledge. Now wehn all the shoes in the casino are running choppy (which happens frequently), I will be betting opposite on play 2!

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Yes BUT:

First: the rules, as complex as they already are, need to be concise enough for the average player to follow.

Second:

S40 likes 1's MOST and 2s second most

OTB4L likes 2s MOST and 3s second most

S40M1 likes 1s most and 4+s 2nd most.

I think we've got to go with "most".

I've never been able to get players to even grasp what event each system likes most, let alone 2nd most and let alone what they DON't Like.

Players like a crutch like the OR count.

In MDB their crutch is an SAP count.

In my experience players will have their hands full remembering which system goes with which high count

let alone the highest two counts.

I think if we try to match the highest 2 counts to the correct system most will simply give up and blame the Designer.

I already stated which system goes with the highest two counts. That effort will be totally lost on most players.

However it will be VERY meaningfull to our best players.

Some players will have their hands full averaging +5. Hence the MDB schedule is based on +5.

I expect our best players to average at least +7 mostly through tricks of the trade. They can go through the million dollar schedule much faster.

Our best players will conform the hard rules to their own liking.

Our best players "SEE" the overall MDB strategy.

Our average player just follows rules with little understanding of why the rules are as they are.

I realize how pessimistic this sounds. But I also know that the "players" who criticize me on other forums are the very SAME guys who can't follow even the most basic of rules - the same players who cannot grasp overall concepts. Somehow they blame me rather than themselves. These guys also believe that all winners are liars. When they watch me win they claim I cheated. The same guys who want something for nothing.

I agree Ellis, most of the questions are redundant and if they just read each and every post's giving by you exclusively, their questions will have already been answered.

The question really is comprehension. I do understand IQ's vary and maybe some of our members need to take notes.

Be a Tracker and Hunt wisely!

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[ATTACH]3011[/ATTACH]

Brutal shoe! SAP counts with all the ties is tough. It shows the 3,4 start and how it loses. The rest was just played out for practice.

Right, fortunately a 3,4 start is very rare (1 out of 64) and hopfully when it occurs we won't be starting at play 2.

I'm thinking we should only start at play 2 in preshuffled cards. With regular cards we should wait for SAP to reveal a bias - about play 7.

But the more you know about a table before you sit down the better off you are.

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You can guarantee they are preshuffled by playing a touch game and watching them take them outside the box to prep them. That's generally available at $100 minimum and up, however some casinos will allow it for $50.

Ellis, I have a more detailed question ---

When the cards come preshuffled to the table on a NO-touch game where they get recycled all day in an alternating pattern via shufflemaster, would you still call that preshuffled?

Once cards have been played a few times, I don't think it matters much how they started. Some of the Vegas casinos have gone to new cards every 4 hours.

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[ATTACH]3011[/ATTACH]

Brutal shoe! SAP counts with all the ties is tough. It shows the 3,4 start and how it loses. The rest was just played out for practice.

Hello all. This is my first post. Reading and reading. It is a lot take in. This post was what I was experiencing lately in my practice. When all the SAP counts are near each other, is it better to just pause play for the SAP to become more defined?

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