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when that guy came across from another forum claiming to have forgotten his password here and Oz exposed him from another forum I had a look there for interests sake only.

Theres a whole thread there on MDB and people asking for free copies

It starts off like: Does anyone know anything about MDB?

Translation: who can give me a free copy I'm too cheap to join and learn properly so I want to get something for nothing!

Also: This approach sounds interesting

Translation: This might actually work unlike anything I have at the moment!

Funny

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Brad01......I'm a Nor Member. I have payed for Membership (Nor), Vegas Workshop and Extra Training. All I was asking is for some practice shoes to see where I stand germane to the Vegas Shoes. Ellis told us at the Workshop that Nor is more difficult in Vegas. That's it...nothing for free.....just some shoes...no secrets...nothing for free. Get It ??!!???

I was told this forum is the best and helpful....not to sure

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Right, I should have thought of that. Norm's shoes, God rest, are mostly, if not all, MGM. Some are touch games and some are not.

I don't think he designated. No matter. All or most are Vegas factory preshuffled cards. Norm often played head to head and I don't know if he asked for new cards every shoe.

What you will generally find is these shoes are tough for NOR because they lack the bigger biases we see with regular cards.

And NOR is designed to beat biased cards.

Therefore I think OTB4L should be your default system because it has the best chance against random cards.

Let us know how you make out.

But I think you will see why we found it necessary to design a new system, MDB+, to cope with Vegas touch games.

It will be an interesting experiment.

I have a tester I compiled in the '90s with 500 blank shoes on score cards grouped by casino.

I used to sell it at $50 a copy, ha, which is now close to the copy cost.

I stopped selling it because in the '90s we got streakier shoes.

Therefore it can be a little misleading.

I haven't looked over the latest Zumma tester

but I used to know the author.

Those are Vegas shoes but he'd be pretty old now and I don't know if he's put out a new edition

since Vegas went to factory preshuffled.

Ha, the guy made a good living just wandering around Vegas recording shoes.

I wish I had thought of that. I doubt I could have withstood that level of boredom.

There were several of us designing systems back then and we all knew each other.

But when NOR finally emerged they all conceded and are now among the most steadfast NOR players.

NOR is WHY Vegas changed to factory preshuffled cards.

They needed less bias and more randomness.

They think random can't be beat.

But in reality, random is the easiest to beat.

You just need the right system - MDB+.

Way2fast is concerned that Vegas will react to MDB+ because Vegas has a history of changing the game to react to the players.

Perhaps but what can they change to???

There are only two kinds of cards - random and biased.

MDB+ beats random decisively.

And NOR beats biased almost as decisively.

I don't think casinos will want to be dealing with NOR again.

I think Vegas will stick to their current strategy.

I follow their Baccarat profits.

Their current card orders that they purchase are producing the highest casino profits ever.

I don't think they will react to the few of us.

But you never KNOW. MDB+ beat Flamingo so bad that they changed back to regular cards.

I know, I was there listening to the pit boss comments about our players.

"You guys don't bet very often but when you do, you're always right."

Well, they exaggerate. Pit bosses are known for that. But they weren't exaggerating much.

It was my fault that they went back to regular cards. We shouldn't have kept picking on the same casino.

It reminds me of my BJ game in the early '90s. I couldn't be beat. The pit bosses went whacko!

BTW, I still have never lost at BJ in downtown Vegas.

They deal the same game today that they always did - hand shuffled BJ.

I haven't lost there in 30 years and they know it.

That's what makes it so fun for me.

But I digress. That's what happens when you get old. You live on memories because your current life sucks!

Edited by Ellis
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Brian, if you want to know the MDB+ rules, being a Nor member like me, you have to put $700 on the table to get access to the private MDB forum. And another $200 to get access to all to date bacc forums. It looks like 2Hi is still in development stage,maybe I am wrong. If you decide to skip MDB and buy the 2hI upgrade, the cost would be $300.

If I ever go to play at Vegas I would certainly join MDB, not before.

I am member since Feb 2014, and still could not beat consistently Nor on the kitchen table, maybe I am dumb, but I following a very good advice, I do not play for real yet.

Most of the best players here had tweaked some of the many systems sold here, Norm , Papajoe, Andreas, did. And Kevin is using a form of 4D combined with the twist, his own system.

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modnar, I've been a member here since I believe 2005 I have access

to everything BAC related including MDB+. The reason I asked is I'm

seeing posts about things that I believe were not original rules. I

want to make sure I have everything right. Ellis said in a prior post that

he would post the rules. Ellis woud you please take care of this.

Thanks, Brian. PS I've already asked this in the million dollar bac thread thought I'd ask on this thread.

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Whoops, I had to delete because we aren't on the MDB forum.

I'll repost on a new thread in the MDB forum under.

"Original MDB+ Rules"

modnar, I've been a member here since I believe 2005 I have access

to everything BAC related including MDB+. The reason I asked is I'm

seeing posts about things that I believe were not original rules. I

want to make sure I have everything right. Ellis said in a prior post that

he would post the rules. Ellis woud you please take care of this.

Thanks, Brian. PS I've already asked this in the million dollar bac thread thought I'd ask on this thread.

Well sure. I'll just go to the rules thread and copy them:

?

Edited by Ellis
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NOR takes a lot of practise as there is many parts to it and you have to know when to apply the right part at the right time.

MDB does work for all shoe types but you have to have experience if playing bias as there are some parts that you wouldn't play

Vegas there's more chance all the original rules all having good results is what I feel based on what I'm told here.

I just posted a shoe from online played this morning where I played MDB and NOR at same time and won both.

If you want to learn NOR first that's fine but just to let you know that MDB is still valid and will work on biased shoes so you could be missing out on many MDB bets which would make the cost of it back quicker and you would learn it quicker and possibly be making more $$ quicker

MDB has a real high hit rate even for bias shoes I got an 80% hit rate this morning and a 60% PA (player advantage)

Post some shoes on NOR forum that you are struggling with and I will have a look and we can go through them

I been practising NOR real hard and its starting to come together I think and I would be happy to have a look so I can also learn more

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Hi Brian (fellow Aussie), I have been reading all the posts regarding baccarat with a lot of interest. It is obvious as I have said before that you can't just purchase one of the systems and then you're set to start making money.

But I just wondered when I save the money (when not if, I'm determined) do you think I would be better off purchasing MDB or Nor as my starting point.

I know it's probably not any easy question to answer and I only ask it as I am very enthusiastic about becoming a member, even though it will still be a bit of a wait.

Just interested in your thoughts.

Cheers

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Hi Tim,

For me because I was reading this forum for a long time and I saw the progression to preshuffled random cards and MDB came in then I decided that I would join up to both because I was financially able to.

But it would depend on ones financial circumstances if they wanted to start with NOR then that would be fine.

NOR is ok for shoes with bias and there is plenty of live dealer hand shuffled casinos now so NOR is applicable.

You can use it for roulette too but roulette seems a bit more volatile and likely to change in an instant so you have to play a very tight game and lower your win goals and stop losses in my opinion

You could make it a goal to win your MDB membership fee.

I believe MDB is the best system around ever and forever to come unless 2Hi overtakes it so I definitely think it is worth it to get as well.

At the moment I'm playing both together.

However I don't think Oz plays MDB - hes got his own method which I believe he devised from NOR and netbetting

Whatever you decide I'll do my best to help you and I'm sure others will too

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Thank you BRAD (nice of you not to mention my inability to get your four letter name correct)

Wise words and I appreciate your offering of assistance when I eventually become a member. It really does give you confidence being able to correspond with people who have been through the ups and downs of this and are happy to pass that experience on to those less experienced.

Cheers

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  • Baccarat Hall of Fame Member
Hi Tim,

For me because I was reading this forum for a long time and I saw the progression to preshuffled random cards and MDB came in then I decided that I would join up to both because I was financially able to.

But it would depend on ones financial circumstances if they wanted to start with NOR then that would be fine.

NOR is ok for shoes with bias and there is plenty of live dealer hand shuffled casinos now so NOR is applicable.

You can use it for roulette too but roulette seems a bit more volatile and likely to change in an instant so you have to play a very tight game and lower your win goals and stop losses in my opinion

You could make it a goal to win your MDB membership fee.

I believe MDB is the best system around ever and forever to come unless 2Hi overtakes it so I definitely think it is worth it to get as well.

At the moment I'm playing both together.

However I don't think Oz plays MDB - hes got his own method which I believe he devised from NOR and netbetting

Whatever you decide I'll do my best to help you and I'm sure others will too

Well, well...thinking Brad finally hit the nail on the proverbial head.

NOR and MDB BOTH look for " biases"...it's just they look for different kinds.

But COMBINED, they can be very useful.

So yeah, I'm still playing my version of 4D, which helps to markedly increases/opens -my-mind to see/ anticipate inflexion points ( aka changes) in a shoe's direction, but here are a bunch of shoe played last 30 days in Vegas , so see if they help you decide if MDB is your kind of town, or just Frank Sinatra's...

Notes:

Not all shoes played to completion

No ties recorded

I do not keep columns of 20, so play indicated below is from start to finish

1) B11172115214311121413 Red Rock

2) B23332111221244111221211112211122111 Orleans

3) P 122121111111124211332121241313 El Cortez

4) P2234421212222411132131112151212121222 Green Valley Ranch

5) B1111119412143122 Gold Coast

6) B111123122115121123266221211121212111421211 Red Rock

7) P111211113332322211111111112211213131112223112111 M Resort

8) B4212231112512123152314 SLS

9) B2214282141572121111411212 Red Rock

10) P1111154211113111121111252132231131 RIO

11) P11231331112512311111332212431422 Gold Coast

12) P1111823233213314351211123232122 SunCoast

13) P52121113111115211212 MGM

14) B143111222411122412712122142214331 Palms

15) P153121345114211131311113252221 Ceasar's Palace

16) B32321131412152151121 Golden Nugget

17) P21111123422231221321111211132314211 Red Rock

18) P4221518213231461112162261112 NewYorkNewYork

19) P2112132114122213112182 Paris

20) P2212711482221211212112141533511 Gold Coast

There you have it...Virtually all per shuffled cards...just not sure about the MGM these days...

Played diff days of week, diff times of day, diff playing partners, some tables full, some just me and the dealer

If this can help you draw inferences about/categorize VEGAS SHOES, great! But 20 is a small sample...hardly Zumma...

But one thing I do know, is you will be a far more complete player if you are armed with several systems, and several Betting progressions than if you just have one...especially you live in a place has a lot of tables, or a lot of casinos...

Or even if you live in a place just has one table, because 1 is the loneliest number that you'll ever do...two can be as bad as one...and it shouldn't tale 3 Dogs or all night to figure it out ( or you'll be broke!)

Good Luck to all...

Kevin

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Thank you Kevin I will save this page for when I know a tad more about what the hell is going on lol. That is not making a joke about what you guys do, it is about how much I have to learn so I eventually might figure out how this game is played properly.

Amazing to think those 29.95 systems weren't giving me the full story :)

But I for one like a challenge, and when it's something you enjoy (although I know a number of you have said you actually don't particularly like baccarat) it makes it that much easier. And as for enjoying it, it doesn't really matter as over time it just becomes a means to an end. If you get sick of it, well it still beats the 9-5 and peak hour traffic I believe (not that I've had to do that for a long time).

A few hours in the casino or in front of your computer sure beats the hell out of a job you hate and a boss you would like to, well a boss you don't get on well with!

Thanks again Kevin

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  • Baccarat Hall of Fame Member
Well, well...thinking Brad finally hit the nail on the proverbial head.

NOR and MDB BOTH look for " biases"...it's just they look for different kinds.

But COMBINED, they can be very useful.

So yeah, I'm still playing my version of 4D, which helps to markedly increases/opens -my-mind to see/ anticipate inflexion points ( aka changes) in a shoe's direction, but here are a bunch of shoe played last 30 days in Vegas , so see if they help you decide if MDB is your kind of town, or just Frank Sinatra's...

Notes:

Not all shoes played to completion

No ties recorded

I do not keep columns of 20, so play indicated below is from start to finish

1) B11172115214311121413 Red Rock

2) B23332111221244111221211112211122111 Orleans

3) P 122121111111124211332121241313 El Cortez

4) P2234421212222411132131112151212121222 Green Valley Ranch

5) B1111119412143122 Gold Coast

6) B111123122115121123266221211121212111421211 Red Rock

7) P111211113332322211111111112211213131112223112111 M Resort

8) B4212231112512123152314 SLS

9) B2214282141572121111411212 Red Rock

10) P1111154211113111121111252132231131 RIO

11) P11231331112512311111332212431422 Gold Coast

12) P1111823233213314351211123232122 SunCoast

13) P52121113111115211212 MGM

14) B143111222411122412712122142214331 Palms

15) P153121345114211131311113252221 Ceasar's Palace

16) B32321131412152151121 Golden Nugget

17) P21111123422231221321111211132314211 Red Rock

18) P4221518213231461112162261112 NewYorkNewYork

19) P2112132114122213112182 Paris

20) P2212711482221211212112141533511 Gold Coast

There you have it...Virtually all per shuffled cards...just not sure about the MGM these days...

Played diff days of week, diff times of day, diff playing partners, some tables full, some just me and the dealer

If this can help you draw inferences about/categorize VEGAS SHOES, great! But 20 is a small sample...hardly Zumma...

But one thing I do know, is you will be a far more complete player if you are armed with several systems, and several Betting progressions than if you just have one...especially you live in a place has a lot of tables, or a lot of casinos...

Or even if you live in a place just has one table, because 1 is the loneliest number that you'll ever do...two can be as bad as one...and it shouldn't tale 3 Dogs or all night to figure it out ( or you'll be broke!)

Good Luck to all...

Kevin

Hey, its only20 shoes...

Right?

Well look at the relationship of 1 events-IAR's to 2 events-@IAR, over 20 shoes...

And 2's -to -3's

Do you know the math of "normal distribution" for same?

Its in the forum...

Do you know what SAP is?

It's in the forum...

Do you understand the O/R relationship, and how to play accordingly?

Its in the forum...

Do you understand OTBL/TBL degree of normalcy? And what to do when it gets out of whack?

Its in the forum...

In summary, you need to know all of this and more...not to win a few shoes...not to " get lucky"...

Its your money...you have access to arguably the greatest teacher of Baccarat ever...or is it all a hoax?

You can read, right? You have access to the wonders of the internet to review/understand more information on the topic published in the last 10 years than published in 300 years cumulatively before that...

(problem is, outside of this forum, most of it is garbage...)

The road to riches is paved with a whole bunch of potholes, thorns and obstacles...

And casinos who are out to get your $$

But if you are going to play...if you are going to succeed...if you have what the .01% of long-term winners achieve...

Like Jordan Spieth appears to have, at least for now, as relates to golf...will he be the next Tiger??

Then keep reading ,keep on studying, and KNOW YOU ARE INTHE BEST POSSIBLE PLACE ON THE PLANET TO ACHIEVE LONG TERM BACCARAT WININGS...

(just be prepared...it ain't easy...)

But it can, and is, being done...

BUT, IT IS UP TO YOU....

This is like the IRONMAN TRIATHLON, recognized all over the world as bringing out only the best-of-the-best...this is not your local walkathon, not a 5k race, not your local bike for ( whatever, insert here) event...

I wish you all the best...

Kevin

( p.s. I used to be one of the owners of a company that sponsored the Ironman Triathlon brand...attended the annual culminating event in Hawaii 3 times...

You start thinking like those athletes...you start practicing like that....you treat Baccarat like you will become one of those .01%'ers who can compete....and you will be successful)

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