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Ok so we know now the new system we are going to use SAP and Reverse SAP with a progression that suits us.

When will this be available for us to learn and start using for real? (For the players that don't no this way of playing)

Right, or you can even experiment with flat betting. A few know the short cut version of SAP. But this calls for full SAP and full Reverse SAP.

You will need to learn how to set up your Sap score card

How to determine how to enter your SAP counts on your card

And how to relate those counts to when and how you bet.

And how to determine whether the shoe at hand is calling for SAP or Reverse SAP.

And cash mgt - when to get in the shoe and when to get out.

I'll hopefully start instruction on the 2Hi forum tomorrow.

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Ellis , do you still use netbetting with SAP system ?

No! Like MDB+, SAP and Reverse SAP pick out your high percentage bets in the shoe at hand.

And perhaps of even more advantage to you, it also picks out your low percentage bets

warning you to avoid betting on those.

So if you are only betting your high percentage bets, yes, you can do good just flat betting.

But think about it - If you are only betting high percentage bets, that's perfect odds for a 3 bet prog!

Just like MDB+ you will seldom lose it.

The difference is, Yes, MDB+ is great with new preshuffled cards but not so good with anything else.

SAP and Reverse SAP corrects that problem. It gives you a way to play regular cards or on the internet

but at the same time, it gives you a way to play preshuffled too.

Note that way2fast does extremely well in Vegas but only OK in A.C.

That's because MDB+ is designed specifically for new preshuffled cards.

But SAP, I guess you could say has 2 modes the way I'll teach you - for lack of a better term.

way2fast could have switched modes and would have done a whole lot better in AC.

Basically SAP is for regular cards and Reverse SAP is for preshuffled.

Ha, but you can't always count on the casino. They are, after all, out to beat you.

So sometimes you'll get a Reverse SAP game at a regular cards casino

Just as sometimes you get a SAP game in Vegas.

I remember that shoe durring the crawl that had no 2s. SAP would have killed it.

But how would I have known to play SAP instead of Reverse???

By the dispersement of the SAP counts.

A tight dispersement is Reverse SAP which we will USUALLY see in Vegas - BUT not always.

THAT shoe would have had a 0 count on 2s together with a very high count on both 1's and 3s -

Very high SAP dispersement screaming for SAP.

So for that shoe, we would have known to switch tactics from Reverse SAP (normal for Vegas) to SAP.

SAP likes and thrives on high dispersement

Reverse SAP thrives on tight or even 0 dispersement. (when all your SAP counts are running about equal)

like we USUALLY see in Vegas - but not ALWAYS.

So in essence, I'm giving you a way to NOT get caught with your pants down.

A way to react when shoes misbehave and, in fact, take advantage of misbehavior.

MDB+ does not have such a feature.

Neither did SAP the first time around.

So the trick is - your duty is - to always keep your eye on dispersement.

Dispersment is telling you what to do.

That way we've got the whole ball park covered.

Let the casino try their tricks! We are ready for that this time around.

Last time around we weren't ready. Ha, and Vegas let us know we weren't ready.

BUT! We aren't going to make the same mistake twice!

OH, and I apologize that it took me so long to see that.

BUT, I see it now!

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Net Betting is an art form. You can beat ANY shoe net betting IF you know how to adjust to the shoe at hand.

You can't net bet mechanically the same way every shoe as I was trying to do with 2Hi.

Kit was right about that. I was wrong and I apologize. I should have known better.

I think SAP is a much better approach to U2Hi with particular emphasis on the U.

We MUST have a way to adjust to the conditions we are facing right now, wherever we are and whatever they are.

My mechanical net betting approach to 2Hi simply can't handle varying conditions,.

SAP and Reverse SAP CAN!

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You guys who are killing them with MDB+. You know who you are.

Don't pay me no mind here.

Keep on trucking.

Rule #1 is, when you are killing them - don't change anything!

Ha, except your unit size!

I'm very proud of you guys. Keep on trucking!

Meanwhile, I'm trying to give the rest of our guys a way to catch up with you.

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Ellis has there been any testing done playing SAP and reverse SAP?

SAP is the most tested system we have both by us and by everyone else. Reverse SAP is not a different system. It is the mirror image of the same system and has been tested exhaustively in Asia.

See, back then we only had to contend with biased cards here in the US. But the casinos eventually caught on to that and today we also mst contend with random cards - which is the purpose of Reverse SAP.

SAP bets biases will continue as NOR does.

Reverse SAP, like MDB+, bets the cards will not tray a long way from random.

The difference is that while MDB+ bases its bets on recent events, Reverse SAP bases on the whole shoe thus far.

Reverse SAP, however will have to borrow a page from MDB+ to get our bets on 1's right.

SAP counts 1's but it doesn't differentiate between single and multiple 1's. We'll have to do that manually.

Our MDB+ players have close to a 100% hit rate on 1's, so we'll borrow that method for reverse SAP as well.

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The difference is, Yes, MDB+ is great with new preshuffled cards but not so good with anything else.

Ellis, this has been repeated many times here on the forum, but what is the data supporting this? My experience does not support such a strong conclusion. It is true that the majority of MDB+ games I play are with new preshuffled cards, as they dominate in the high limit rooms. But I also play MDB+ with re-used cards in no-touch games, and have not observed a different experience in number of signals or win rates. I'm not saying it will win any casino with any cards, but I have just not seen any evidence that MDB+ is great with "new preshuffled cards but not so good with nothing else."

Note that way2fast does extremely well in Vegas but only OK in A.C.

That's because MDB+ is designed specifically for new preshuffled cards.

I have only played in AC one time, winning an average of 1.5 units per shoe. You will recall from my trip report that I struggled more there than what I was seeing in Vegas, but MDB+ still did very well. That trip was also before I made some changes to how I play. Partly because of the results of that trip i made the changes I have posted about (don't play 1 stay 1 or 2 goes to 3 early in the shoe until there is a 3+; only play 1 stay 1 after four second liners; play streak signals after they occur three times instead of two times -- ZZ plays stay at two times). The AC shoes played as I now play would of won over +4 units average per shoe. There would have been no lost progressions on that trip (there were three losing progressions when I played it under the old way). So based on only 1 short trip, I wouldn't conclude a city-wide difference between Vegas and AC. I have played, and won with MDB + in Vegas, AC, Biloxi, California, Chicago and Atlantis.

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I don't have any experience in actual play of preshuffled cards because online is hand shuffle, and my casino is machine shuffle so cant comment

I tried MDB+ on online and it didn't go so well so far.

I tried to pick the right triggers to not conflict with the bias showing up ie - don't play that something wont happen when the bias is pointed that way

I did ok winning about +2 - 3 MDB+ units

But twice in a row I have lost to >2iar trigger like it actually generated 8 or 9 + 2iar's

Conversely when that happened I took a step back and bet repeats only and depending on the length of the streaks I come out ahead a little way or a fair bit. Now it appears this casino is generating this bias of 6 - 10 consecutive 2iar's in every shoe and in between that its s40 like so I'm looking to keep playing this way if they hopefully keep generating this.

I been playing SAP with NOR and it works well too

We got a MDB+ section for highly random, NOR for highly biased and we got this for what started out being netbetting but appears to be going to SAP

Could we make this section like a refresher / training for netbetting as well as the new SAP planned?

Ellis I am sure you have many tricks and approaches to netbetting you could teach us

I sort of like that as its 3 different angles to baccarat which is a lot of tools to take to the table.

I think jumping on all 3 forums regularly keeps you up to speed with all approaches and all shoe types.

I guess it means everyone needs to join up to all forums but it comes down to a support thing, and a $$ thing for some.

You could do well focusing on just NOR or just MDB or just netbet / SAP but you could do even better with all 3.

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Please Ellis , when do you start to teach SAP system ?

Right now on a new thread on the 2Hi forum called SAP/Reverse SAP. - give me a few hours from now.

I'm going to start with the theory of SAP because if you understand the theory you'll see why we bet what we bet where we bet when we bet.

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Ellis, this has been repeated many times here on the forum, but what is the data supporting this? My experience does not support such a strong conclusion. It is true that the majority of MDB+ games I play are with new preshuffled cards, as they dominate in the high limit rooms. But I also play MDB+ with re-used cards in no-touch games, and have not observed a different experience in number of signals or win rates. I'm not saying it will win any casino with any cards, but I have just not seen any evidence that MDB+ is great with "new preshuffled cards but not so good with nothing else."

I have only played in AC one time, winning an average of 1.5 units per shoe. You will recall from my trip report that I struggled more there than what I was seeing in Vegas, but MDB+ still did very well. That trip was also before I made some changes to how I play. Partly because of the results of that trip i made the changes I have posted about (don't play 1 stay 1 or 2 goes to 3 early in the shoe until there is a 3+; only play 1 stay 1 after four second liners; play streak signals after they occur three times instead of two times -- ZZ plays stay at two times). The AC shoes played as I now play would of won over +4 units average per shoe. There would have been no lost progressions on that trip (there were three losing progressions when I played it under the old way). So based on only 1 short trip, I wouldn't conclude a city-wide difference between Vegas and AC. I have played, and won with MDB + in Vegas, AC, Biloxi, California, Chicago and Atlantis.

Right way2fast but I'm not talking about touch vs no touch. I'm talking about regular cards that origionally came to the table in 8 sealed decks

vs. factory preshuffled that came to the table in a sealed and numbered 8 deck bundle.

Now we have to be careful when identifying regular from preshuffled because some casinos do their card prep with regular cards away from the table in a closed room and then deliver the shuffled cards to the table in a "tray" that is usually unsealed. These are STILL Regular cards

Right, I only see a slight difference in new vs old (used) factory cards. Both are MDB+.USUALLY.

But having said all that, the fact is we sometimes get highly biased cards at "factory" casinos

AND we sometimes get random cards at "regular" casinos. Not very often but sometimes.

Usually its enough to simply know which kind of cards you are playing

but our best players will avoid getting caught with their pants down by watching dispersement.

Tight dispersement of your 4 SAP counts is MDB+ or Reverse SAP.

Wide dispersement is NOR or SAP.

It is hard to define a precise signal. I'm going to start with the signal of 2 times but I'm keeping my eye on 3 times.

When your highest SAP count is more than twice your lowest count - that is SAP.

And when your highest count is less than twice your lowest that is Reverse SAP.

But we may find we have to adjust that as we go - or not.

My supporting data is my own shoes as well as shoes from you guys.

I watched my NOR average take a dive in Vegas starting precisely when Vegas went to preshuffled.

And not just Vegas. Also in Tunica I saw a striking drop in my NOR average whenever I played preshuffled in Tunica.

I'm talking like +20 down to +5 or worse. And I wasn't getting +5 playing NOR at preshuffled casinos.

Fortunately, in Tunica I noted that P and B were running surprisingly close with preshuffled cards whether brand new or used - virtually every shoe.

I got the +5 average by simply betting that P and B would equalize.

But I'll explain more on the new thread.

Edited by Ellis
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Ellis when will you be posting the SAP/RSAP system to the guys that paid for 2hi? I am excited that we are going to be playing this way. I have been playing around with MDB and starting to have some success, at this stage I am seeing a difference between pre shuffled and regular cards, maybe way2fasts way dominates both. I think SAP/RSAP could be a good way for beginners like myself to be told what,where and when to bet as personally I struggle making the correct decision when playing NOR with my inexperience. Let's get this out so we can start playing :)

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Go the the public forum and read the first post by Ellis

That explains the basics and some terms and other things

I'm pretty sure by then he will have moved it to private

Make sure you know what he taught there or when he does the next lesson and you are still asking what is C Cards and F cards and RSAP then it will waste time

The first lesson is on public forum

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