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I tried Black Orchid tonight and was up +12 playing TB4L with a 1,1,2 progression. Rarely went to 2, only played around 25 hands and got talking to the friendly dealer ;)

Was really banker dominated, I wish I was there for the entire shoe to record it.

Only problem is that it seems pretty slow. But that's good if we play together, we wont be rushed. What does everyone use here? MSN? Skype? Ventrilo? Teamspeak? IRC? ICQ?

When I get back I would love for us to have a weekly time to get together and go through a few shoes on dublinbet or blackorchid. I'll be back on the private forums at the end of January unless I somehow lose at Crown (with what I have learnt here, I doubt that I'll lose).

I hope to be back on the universal forums by the end of January, hopefully sooner.


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Have any of you guys tried Betphoenix live dealer games yet?

Personally I do not like the large over-sized cards they use there but it is an 8deck game and dealt right down to the end basically. It and there sister site Bogart casino are identical. if you sign up for one you sign up for both.

After a couple years of playing Dublinbet in a real brick and mortar casino it is a little strange to transitions to these online casinos that use the oversize cards.

I am so accustomed to fast play that I find their shoes that generally run 1hr and 15 minutes long to be a little slow for my taste but what the heck we Americans are on the outside looking in until online gaming laws are ever changed here. Not much selection so I played there games in fun mode and did my normal 12 units a shoe so figured it was legit.

Being that I am so limited to casinos that will take US action I opened an account there and played the nickel baccarat game for a few shoes and quickly won $120.00 bucks with nickels. There were 2's galore and SKOR/KS knocked out a couple back to back 12-13 unit wins and I was impressed even though I still do not like the Studio environment and the slow pace along with the oversized cards. The game is almost hypnotically paced with the sound of the bet clock clicking down and the tones played when you win a bet that it sort of puts me in a trance that I kind of have to fight off. Other than that the first day was fine. The next day I went on the sight and the shoes were lacking in twos and favoring closer to TB4L play but it got a little trickier and I actually hit my BLSL (bottom line stop-loss -8) that I hit about once every 150Dublinbet shoes. My other losses are usually in the -1 to -4 range five or six times every 100 Dublinbet shoes. That’s not to shabby and a lot of credit for maintaining that kind of win rate at D-bet is due to the -4 Panic Button rule. When I hit -4 I shut down and just concentrate on getting back to zero and then resuming the game. This usually really shoots most of the shoe trying to get back to zero especially in 6 deck shoes.

I was a little surprised that I lost two shoes in a row giving back 12 units in two consecutive shoes. I backed off and looked at the other tables. They have a $5.00 table two $10.00 tables a $50.00 table and believe it or not a $2000.00 min to $10,000.00 table. So five baccarat tables running 24/7. To access the $5.00 table you have to push the "old version" button next to the login button on the home page.

I will probably play them latter today to see what the shoes look like. If I see something good on the nickel table I will jump in and try again.

These Costa Rican casinos had such a bad reputation in the past for these rogue casinos running fixed games and stiffing players on pay-offs that they got a bad reputation a few years ago. However Betphoenix is quite popular with the sport betting crowd (mostly all American by the stats I saw) but it is very difficult to get a good take on the fairness of the live casino games there. I try to look at the shuffle as close as I can on my monitor but it is still a bit difficult to see in the small window the dealer is in. It seems legit but in one shoe it seemed like way to many hands were being beat on draw cards. I have never bothered to keep stats on this but in a couple of my losing shoes it seemed I was on the receiving end of bad hit card beats. I just know from experience that usually the side with the highest initial value of the first two card generally wins the hand. Like I said I never kept stats on that but it seems maybe in the 60 to 70% range the side with the highest total on the first two cards wins the hand. Seemed like I was on the short end of the stick a few times yesterday but maybe I was just reading to much into it. I don't see any funny business on the screen but they do reset the servers at midnight and go off the air for 5 minutes or so but when the feed and the shoe resumes it appears to be the same card flow as you would expect from that particular shoe.

If anyone here has some experience with the betphoenix live dealer games I would be interested in hearing your experience with them.

From a Google search on Live dealer casinos it appears that Dublinbet is the only real brick and mortar casino that has a live feed. All the others are studio versions with the English casinos leading the pack in trustworthiness and the better software package (revolution as I recall).

I'll let you know how BP works out for me. Bye the way I am technically an outlaw for doing business with this joint by USA law... so mums the word.

Edited by TomM
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because of TomMs post, i just signed up for bet phoenix and i plan to put in a small deposit to play $5 table, if they let me - I have tried to sign on dublinbet and black orchid and have been refused due to USA reasons.

does anybody know, are some of the online casinos relaxing their USA law compliance?

Edited by zeropointmatrix
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I just sent a moneygram. It was no problem. They take the usual stuff. Just give them a call and they will tell you what works there. I had a Neteller account that I can’t use now due to the USA banking thing but there are some others now that accept USA customers.

I just logged off a few minutes ago. I was just messing around with RD1 and starting with SKOR/Z single zero start, SKOR KS and adding a little Kentucky windage when needed. I was on the nickel table again tonight but I was too tired to bet so just checked out four shoes. Two nice trendy shoes and two shoes that were a battle. But I see no problem once you get accustomed to their somewhat awkward betting arrangement. They take your bet down after each hand including ties and I still sometimes forget to re-bet after the tie. Other than that everything else seems OK.

You get some real nice trendy shoes mixed in with the usual go-nowhere -fast shoes. I think you can do well there if you don’t get carried away. Once I build up my unit size I will just hop tables if the nickel table bogs down.

I tried googling them to see if they had any disgruntled players sounding off but can’t find anything negative about there live games.

I joined the casinomeister forum today but haven't checked my mail to see if I got my invite there. I'll do that in a moment and ask if anybody has the inside scoop on BP.

It's a huge outfit that caters to mostly USA sports bettors but have now a substantial investment in these live dealer games. I like the fact that they deal right down to the felt on the 8 deck shoes even though I wish they would ditch the oversized cards. but who knows that may even work to our advantage. I doubt they would jeopardize their reputation by fixing their games when they are probably handily beating the crowds, but then again I only plan to raise the stakes on their money anyway. I don’t want to push it too much as there are no other live dealer sites that accept USA players at this time that I’m aware of. .

Edited by TomM
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thx Tom

i might be using ewalletXpress but i am checking out the workings - i had netteller before also until they closed me. - have you made a successful withdraw yet from the casino? - So far I am trepidatious because what i read so far makes it look like it's not simple like netteller was -

ok - i'll call


Edited by zeropointmatrix
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About the casino laws in the USA According to my research and the CNBC show I saw a week ago: the experts were guessing that the present laws would probably be in effect for some time to come.

They said basically to expect the laws to slowly change over the coming years. I think that is probably a correct guess because it would impact the USA land based corporations to much if it happened tomorrow.

Maybe once the casino corporations have a piece of the action things will move along. In other words business as usual in D.C..

Once a law takes affect it is a pain to have it changed let alone abolished. So expect slow on this.

I haven’t try to withdraw from BP yet so can’t help there. I only deposited $300.00 just to check out the nickel game. I haven’t heard of anyone having any problems withdrawing winnings from them at all. The sports betting review sites rate them A- to B+ for their booking services so that is what I am going by now.

I found BP reps. on the phone or live chat to be very knowledgeable and eager to help set up an account. If you are from most countries you have no problem but with the current USA banking laws trying to comply with these nutty UIEGA laws makes it more difficult. The CNBC special said that the feds think the money going offshore is estimated at 40 to 50 billion a year. I think it is just like the automobile industry in the US getting axed by the better more efficient cars from abroad in the last couple decades. How long did they blow that off until they were backed into a corner and needed a bail-out to change there ways.

AS far as the BP game goes, so far I am ahead. The 1st day I made $120.00 playing nickels. A couple days later I played another couple shoes and hit my stop loss -8 and another shoe -4 and I backed off to examine more shoes in fun mode. I don’t think these games are rigged. You just have to get used to the format and expect some wild swings from shoe to shoe or even column to column. I backed off for a few days and looked at the shoes and think I just overreacted. The nature of their shoes is very volatile. So far every time I have played there fun or money it is late at night, so the cards are presumably well played by USA /EST. It takes a little time to build up a book on a casino, brick and mortar or online but online I am even more suspicious because of the lack of information available about this new industry and also it is just difficult to see the shuffle. Everything else I have seen there so far looks legitimate but I am just going by my own experience so far and the little that I have been able to dig up on the live dealer games on the net. But don’t take my word for it. I am still in the exploratory phase and am still looking for anything suspicious, but so far I have not seen it.

From what I have seen expect wild swings from shoe to shoe. Play closer to SKOR basic in the average game (SAP counts). I have seen a column go 10 in a row followed by 10 ZZ (wish I had been playing a up-

FIB on that one) and everything in between. RD1 does well in these late night swing to grave shifts.

Expect the unexpected. I’ll update when I’ve seen more shoes.

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In the login in screen at BP home page they offer OLD VERSION and NEW VERSION in the drop down box. Just select the OLD VERSION and log into that page. The nickel game is at the bottom of that page under the two dime games and one $50.00 game.

It is easier to hop tables in the NEW VERSION but the new version lacks the nickel game. Makes me wonder how much longer the nickel game will last.

Just as an observation I would suggest logging off after your done playing in money mode. The games look a lot better after you poured yourself one. Just maintain the same discipline you would in a brick and mortar joint.

I find it handy too keep the auto-bet button checked so have a little more leeway to get your bet down before the clock expires. Then again I am finding that if I cannot come to a bet decision in the allotted time sometimes it's better to sit out that one anyway. Many times when I am having a hard time making a decision I look up and see the SAP #'s are to close to call. If there is no discernable trend sometimes better to blow off that bet.

Oddly I had success last night in a neutral game that I switched to RD1 and it quickly made +7 then started heading down toward and ended the shoe at zero. I was using Anthony's 1,1.5,2 unit betting playing dimes in fun mode. I applied a little windage and elevation to that and may have screwed up a transition. I am just starting to mess with RD1 but it looks pretty good at the right time.

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Not at the moment. I have in the past, but both times It really turned into a JOB for me. .Under the right circumstances I would play for a living online but am really burn't out on in the casino action.

In any case that means smoke-free casinos for me. Doctors orders. Online live dealer casino action would be perfect for me at this point in my life.

I'm overdue for a move to Walden pond or Walden’s mountain. Chop wood, carry water, carve a rocking chair, and just plug into a satellite a few hours a week.

So far the only problem playing from home is lousy cocktail service! :alcoholic:

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Hi guys,

Ive actually been playing on BetPhoenix for almost a month, but haven't

done a withdrawal yet since Ive been up and down....so I didn't want

to suggest it to this forum until I was sure I could actually get my money!

I like them a lot and their support has been great.

BUT, be aware that if you deposit using a credit card or debit card,

there will be a 10 day hold before you can withdraw your winnings.

But there is suppose to be no hold if you use western union or moneygram

when depositing.

TomM - How long did your deposit through moneygram take to show up in your account?

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Real fast.....less than an hour maybe.

P.S. I was just checking out betphoenix on casinomeister furom and I can not find anything negative there either. There is more input of other live dealer sites and that is by and large positive also. BTW their furom is really massive and has a great search tool so you hone right in on the posts you are interested in.

Edited by TomM
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It's a huge outfit that caters to mostly USA sports bettors but have now a substantial investment in these live dealer games. I like the fact that they deal right down to the felt on the 8 deck shoes even though I wish they would ditch the oversized cards. but who knows that may even work to our advantage. I doubt they would jeopardize their reputation by fixing their games when they are probably handily beating the crowds, but then again I only plan to raise the stakes on their money anyway. I don’t want to push it too much as there are no other live dealer sites that accept USA players at this time that I’m aware of. .


Do they hand shuffle or machine shuffle?

It would be hard to "fix" games when the cam is on them non-stop unless they have sleight of hand tricks up their sleeves when deem necessary. Wouldn't it be safer to play online for both parties where there's actually no chance of players swindling the dealers and the dealers every move is being scrutinized at a much slower pace with less distractions?

Plus there are software out there which could possibly record the live streaming of your baccarat game if you want to take it further and break down every play for inconsistencies.


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in case anyone is interested, you can set up an account with betphoenix and go to the money table without money and watch the game, see the cards etc. - overall i like it better than the others i've played online - they don't cut the feed as fast for no activity. and then when thay do you can still see results and stats.

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It's all hand-shuffled with the big over-sizeed cards that say "Eat at Joes" on the back.

I backed off playing BP $ to study in fun mode for a while so I can check out the shuffles better and see which systems tend to work better there.

Their shoes are all over the place. As I said earlier, highly volatile. I am usually playing late night swing/grave and only this morning squeezed in 3 shoes in on day shift. I am EST virtually same hours as Costa Rica.

It is already evident to me that playing baccarat online requires some special skills…particularly discipline.

It is just too easy to login 24/7 and have a baccarat shoe staring you in the face. Too tempting to overplay and play when your out of condition.

I restarted and am back to studying their shuffles and any dealer influence I can notice.I just started doing this there but I think already it’s making a difference.

What I noted so far at BP is there shuffle tends to produce two trendy shoes in a row and then a couple herky-jerky battle shoes. The trendy shoes I find OK to beat with SKOR/ks with less attention to hitting stopper bets/ Skip Bets. The runs tend to be longer and it is usually better to make some money on the runs ala SKOR/Z. I still tend to flat bet because often I am off balance in the shoe.

In the tough shoes you will notice no event really gets very far ahead before the SAP #’s catch up and virtually tie. I now just quit betting and preserve any units won at these times. Difficult to get a good read and the nature of the events would have something like OTB4L escalating bets into short ZZ situation and at times when this shoe type runs with 4R ‘s and 5R’s. I consider these shoes too high risk for flat bets. SKOR basic will sometimes do OK in sections of these shoe types so it is better to not be changing so many bets ala SKOR/ks unless you have a pattern to bet into or significant strong-sidedness.. That’s not usually the case with these shoe types. Basically unreadable. Several other little things about these shoes but basically I just try to perverse any gains and back-off quickly If I began to give back. The SAP chart can help a bit here as often the events are running neck and neck. You really need the power of a negative prig here but I am resisting that to flat bet (basically)and hope the next shoe is lower risk/more trendy.

There are some good runs in these shoes that can make them U2HISAPable. I just played 3 shoes on day shift and won all three. They were pretty trendy but require careful play. One had a 13 opposite run in the second column that had indications in the 1st column this was possible…7op toward the bottom of column 1. Think up-as-you-win at times maybe!. From what I saw of the shuffle I predicted a choppy game for what it’s worth. This shoe I started out with SKOR/Z single zero start and it just went in 3x3 basically until the end of the column where the 7 OP came out, a 2 and then 13 opposites. Basically a column of 1’s . Think I am going to study the shuffles more and play days.

That’s really all I got for now. I would play tight in the crap and see if you can pick up a couple units here and there but limit the risk if you don’t want to play a negative progression. A large portion of these O shoes just suck up chips. Safer to wait. Seems like every time I lean into TB4L the only linked 2’s in the column come out. I tried RD1 approach but need to practice more. It’s easy to over play online and the little ticks of the bet clock and the music when you win is almost hypnotic... so take regular breaks.

Sometimes I think I am judging a beauty contest and forget the baccarat end. The usual traps but now just a mouse click away!

Does anyone here any history with these oversized cards that might have more insight into their particularities. These big cards are new to me so I am wondering if the awkwardness of the cards makes for a volatile output or is it the house shuffle and not the cards? We need a specialist. Maybe Ellis could become a BP junky and analysis these things…..ELLIS you know you want to be chained to the computer 24/7 right…

P.S. Oh, I don't think there is any overt cheating.....Trust but Verify!!!!

Edited by TomM
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i like the big cards at BP - they can't be machine shuffled and the newer they are the more flat they will lay in the discard tray - i noticed that they get bent up a little - i know what you mean about the discipline problem Tom - i am checking back on the game regularly and will leave right away if trends don't look reliable - i plan to flat bet the trends and see where that takes me - after all, i have a forty X rollover and i might as well be patient.

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That's what I meant by saying the oversized cards may work to our advantage in an earlier post. I just need to watch the shuffle as they have slightly different routines. I see wild swings at night Half chop, half streak, Columnar shoes +,-,+-,+ etc. I'm going to play on day shift for a while and see if the cards are much different than the late night one. Keep and eye on the shuffle and record dealer names etc. for indivdual influence. I'm going to check it out now.

P.S. This Windows 7 magnifying window thing helps to see the cards a little better during the shuffle.

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Just a quick note on BP. As Zero mentioned when flat betting trying to make money on the trends. This is the SKOR/ks methodology. It can be very effective here. If you don't want to run a higher risk Negative Progression is a good idea.

I am now labeling shoes (using PJ's SAP card) I always express the 3;s and 4+'s as a fraction so that frees up one column box for a comment on the play. It's real handy. I am now calling every play as High Risk or not and laying of the bets I consider HR for flat betting. This is something I will probably recommend in the KS rewrite. I have never seen so many hands that I consider so HR in some shoes. I just started doing this yesterday and is making a difference.

I am really returning to SKOR/ks roots here and trying too handicap each hand as much as possible. With the added time I find this to keep me from making bad bets in difficult shoes. I got cocky at first there jumping out to a quick lead but hitting to losers in a row quickly changed my thinking on that. Also I was playing in real $ mode testing RD1 for example which wasn't bright. All testing of other systems is now done strictly in Fun mode

In the Casinomeister forum most of the folks like the live dealer games except for the RNG junkies that are used to playing fast. I have a tendency to like to play quick too but obviously not RNG. If I do a tune-up shoe at Dublinbet for instance when I start playing at BP I feel I am going in slow motion. I know I have to curb that and control my environment as much as possible in the casino (home office).

100% concentration 100% of the time. I don't want sound preachy but that the way it is. When your playing money you are in the casino lock stock and barrel. I am finding SKOR/ks training to help here now. I am laying off many more high risk bets now as soon as I recognize the trends. That means sitting out more in worst games but that's OK for now. The good shoes play themselves.

It occurs to me that we could actually develop Specialists that play various different online casinos and give us a synopsis of what system they are playing and their overall observations. Unfortunely I can only play $ mode BP for now so have only limited knowledge on other casinos except Dublinbet that I find very user friendly except for there exceptionally fast games at times. I actually like the speed at D-bet playing OTB4L with a bit of Kentucky windage. OTB4L/OTR is really the only system I can play there at any hour of the day due to the changing speed of the deal. I have taken down massive wins there with that approach and if I had access to D-Bet would probably play OTB4L/OTR with a five point spread. It seems highly effective there and almost feels like cheating at times, even though I never lost any sleep over it. I just play quarters to keep it real, and when I get it up the $8000,00 area put my cards away pour a stiff one and see how long it takes me to give it all back. Good training for newbie’s and keeps my profile there close to average if they pay attention to that playing in fun mode.

The day shoes yesterday at BP looked fine. I think was the first time I won 3 in a row. I think I am just getting accustomed to there style, and playing stingy old KS that is making the difference now. I am really starting to like this online casino thing. I don’t know if I would ever be comfortable playing high stakes though. Anyway I am quite far from having to make that decision.

Tired of reading my own posts. Does anybody have any input on their online casino experience that they would care to share.

I think this could be taken to an art form with all the smart members we have in one place. You don’t have to name specific casinos as such just the nature of how you approach these as versus a brick and mortar for instance. Would be nice to see a regular give and take here or start a new thread.

P.S. At BP I am beginning to like playing by the sound of the bet clock. This way I can keep my head buried in my card and stay in my Zone and chart the next hand and just listen to the bet clock to tick down to make the bet online. That way after the play is done I know if my bet was a winner or not if they play the winning tune. I only have to glance up to check on the damn ties and remember to re-bet.

You might give this a try if you can play in hours when your less likely to be disturbed. Speaking of Ties…and let me say I am not a tie bettor other than playing them for the dealer when they are pouring out. I have had some very weird tie bet shoes @ BP like five ties in a row another shoe had 11 ties in the first twenty-three hands all but one repeat ties…. You tend to notice weird stuff like that. Also ties near the top of a shoe may be interpreted as a shoe to stay on your toes. I have always side marked the ties on my card as a charting aid in case I went to the restroom or something I would use the tie as a marker to help me find my place from my neighbors card.

Another handy thing at BP is the vertical card and horizontal card displayed nicely. Newbie’s can practice there SAP count looking at the horizontal card quickly count the play # and record the SAP event #’s and then when entering your are up to speed real quick and only have to note the current trend (if any discernible) and Bank Player disparity etc. then enter with your best bet in game underway at BP or in most casinos that players are using normal cards i.e. (Asian Horizontal) or reliable tote boards.

I guess I am just slow but when I went to abbreviate Band/Player as BP I realized that might be confusing when talking BetPhoenix.

If you have your head buried in your card playing by sound you might place a bet on the last hand that I have not figured out how to remove as they go to shuffle. I was in fun mode so I just let it ride for the beginning of the next shoe, but if it is real money I guess just logout and re-log should take it down

Edited by TomM
windoz 7 spellcheck almost as bad as me.
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Hi Tom,

I just started reading this thread because I don't usually follow on line bacc. But I have played at Dublin a few times. Could you post the url for BP? I'd like to check it out.

Is it the same as Black Orchid. I looked at them, but haven't found the things you decsribe here. Do you live in USA? If so, how are you playing with a real money account? I thought the on line casinos would'nt let USA players use real money.



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