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OK guys, this is the place to ask your questions re the new NOR Manual. Who's first?

I'm first Ellis! Lol i read through the manual 2 times and caught on with the part that you mentioned has been revised.

Now for OTB4L we go OTR for only 1 time only regardless that we are playing mode 2? That changes things alot!

I replayed some of my shoes and it did made a difference! Can you confirm that?

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I'm first Ellis! Lol i read through the manual 2 times and caught on with the part that you mentioned has been revised.

Now for OTB4L we go OTR for only 1 time only regardless that we are playing mode 2? That changes things alot!

I replayed some of my shoes and it did made a difference! Can you confirm that?

Hi Witchy! Yes, I think that is best. Unlike S40, when you win an OTB4L OTR bet in Mode 2, the run has already gone 5. So if you now bet against the run, you are really betting it won't go 9. That is usually a pretty safe bet.

Only if the shoe is favoring runs of 6 or more thus far would you consider staying OTR for 2 bets in Mode 2. And that is very rare. In Mode 3, always stay OTR for only one bet. We don't usually see enough 10 in a rows to worry about. BUT, if you DO at the casino you play, you need to take that into consideration.

So was the "difference" in your shoes positive or negative?

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Ok, all you NOR junkies, here is an interesting set of circumstances...I just returned home from a trip to the Rivers Casino in Chicago, and this is the actual experience...

Arrived mid shoe about 4:30 pm shoe #1 and exited just shy of mid shoe shoe # 2 at around 7pm...yes, it took almost 2-1/2 hours to play the equivqlent of one shoe! so much for the bad news...

Here is how the cards played out:

P21251122414711111121 ( end of shoe #1)

B42232141225 ( until I left part way through shoe #2)

Guess what? Notice in less than 70 hands total, way low on 1's and only one 3...so given this kind of disparity, guess who the big winner was at the table? no one else even came close...

so I give an awful lot of the credit to Ellis and the members of this forum for contributing to a well thought out, time tested, leave the guess-work at home approach to the game...FYI, I should mention that the friend I mentioned in my last post thread accompanied me to the casino with his $500 chip, and we left and he had the chip and the equivalent of 4 more of them in cash in his pocket!

In all fairness he DID buy my wife and I dinner last night, but I reciprocated with a Turkey burger and a few helpful hints tonight...

Does BTC rock, or what???

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Ok, all you NOR junkies, here is an interesting set of circumstances...I just returned home from a trip to the Rivers Casino in Chicago, and this is the actual experience...

Arrived mid shoe about 4:30 pm shoe #1 and exited just shy of mid shoe shoe # 2 at around 7pm...yes, it took almost 2-1/2 hours to play the equivqlent of one shoe! so much for the bad news...

Here is how the cards played out:

P21251122414711111121 ( end of shoe #1)

B42232141225 ( until I left part way through shoe #2)

Guess what? Notice in less than 70 hands total, way low on 1's and only one 3...so given this kind of disparity, guess who the big winner was at the table? no one else even came close...

so I give an awful lot of the credit to Ellis and the members of this forum for contributing to a well thought out, time tested, leave the guess-work at home approach to the game...FYI, I should mention that the friend I mentioned in my last post thread accompanied me to the casino with his $500 chip, and we left and he had the chip and the equivalent of 4 more of them in cash in his pocket!

In all fairness he DID buy my wife and I dinner last night, but I reciprocated with a Turkey burger and a few helpful hints tonight...

Does BTC rock, or what???

I hope you ordered at least a hundred dollar bottle of wine!

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hi Ellis

what is 1s, 2s, 4s, 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s are these the value of cards ?

Hi Kevin and first welcome to the group! I think we spoke on the phone a few days ago or maybe by PM.

You are going through the initial learning curve right now so everything is very confusing. But you'll get passed that pretty quick.

Meanwhile, when we speak of events like 1's,2s,3s, etc, we are referring to :

1's means one P or B win in a row

2s means two Ps or Bs in a row

3s means 3 Ps or Bs in a row and so forth

P means Player

B means Bank

Hey guys, I remember when each of you was asking this same kind of question.

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Hi K,

Can you explain a little detail what mode and system you were playing particularly on [5] and [7] in the first shoe. [4] and [5] are on the second shoes. How do you approach the OTR?

P212 [5] 1122414 [7] 11111121

B422321 [4] 122 [5]

Thanks,

Ok, all you NOR junkies, here is an interesting set of circumstances...I just returned home from a trip to the Rivers Casino in Chicago, and this is the actual experience...

Arrived mid shoe about 4:30 pm shoe #1 and exited just shy of mid shoe shoe # 2 at around 7pm...yes, it took almost 2-1/2 hours to play the equivqlent of one shoe! so much for the bad news...

Here is how the cards played out:

P21251122414711111121 ( end of shoe #1)

B42232141225 ( until I left part way through shoe #2)

Guess what? Notice in less than 70 hands total, way low on 1's and only one 3...so given this kind of disparity, guess who the big winner was at the table? no one else even came close...

so I give an awful lot of the credit to Ellis and the members of this forum for contributing to a well thought out, time tested, leave the guess-work at home approach to the game...FYI, I should mention that the friend I mentioned in my last post thread accompanied me to the casino with his $500 chip, and we left and he had the chip and the equivalent of 4 more of them in cash in his pocket!

In all fairness he DID buy my wife and I dinner last night, but I reciprocated with a Turkey burger and a few helpful hints tonight...

Does BTC rock, or what???

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Hi K,

Can you explain a little detail what mode and system you were playing particularly on [5] and [7] in the first shoe. [4] and [5] are on the second shoes. How do you approach the OTR?

P212 [5] 1122414 [7] 11111121

B422321 [4] 122 [5]

Thanks,

B-

pretty simple

I look back 5 hands PB , etc, and i ALSO USE THE NUMERICAL VALUES OF THE CARDS PLAYED to make my decisions...P.S. This is my method only, and while I have talked about it on the forum, I know Ellis does not attach a lot of significance to it.

I am not here to disagree with him, I AM JUST EXPLAINING HOW FOR ME IT WORKS...

And how it works involves regression to the normal values 0f 1's, 2's , 3/'s etc in a shoe, even thought I know there are many, many posts about how this is "playing backwards"

Best i can explain is I combine PLAY IT BACKWARDS ( regression to the norm) + PLAY IT FORWARD ( play what the shoe is telling you to play) and make a decision from there. I combine with where i stand in the shoe, +/- as far as win/loss and make a decision which side to bet on.

We have talked repeatedly on this forum that NOTHING WORKS ALL THE TIME STRICTLY MECHANICAL.. I agree, and this is why I combine the numerical values and regression- to-the-mean approaches with NOR.. ( I explained both concepts at the PA session).

I can only say that it is very effective for me personnally, and i refuse to even engage in conversations about Zumma testing, yada, yada, yada

I hope this helps, but if not call me at 850-687-3128 and we will review...

Thanks and good luck!

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Hello Ellis,

I am a newbie with NOR and I just completed reading your updated NOR manual. When playing NOR, is it necessary to keep an EC (events count) or use SAP when attacking live tables? Can one be successful with the consistent wins, tracking only the O/R, modes 2/3, and applying the correct system of play?

Would like to attempt to keep this very simple without all the record keeping on the scorecard.

Also, do "Modes" 2/3 change only when an OTR bet comes up? (please clarify)

Thank you,

jrry

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Hey Frank777 I moved your question about Mode2 and Mode 3 here in this thread for everyone to see and answer.

" Hi Ellis,

Regarding Modes. To play mode 2 or 3 do you decide which mode by the LC ? If not what decides which mode to play ?

In 123 betting system after a winning bet do you just bet a 1 unit or do you bet a 1,2,1,2,1,2, as the old 1-5 U1D2M2 ?

Frank77

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All good questions guys! Sorry, I had to take time to produce some sample games. For starters I did a sample for each system and then played them with regular 123 4 betting and also with advanced betting.

Keith, don't make fancy postings because I will pull them apart to do play by plays anyway. Just copy what I sent you.

Ok, first we do not use a mandatory 2 with Nor. In the 123 4 all winning bets go to 1. In the 234 they go to 2 and in the 345 they go to 3. NOR doesn't need to be as aggressive as U1D2 M2 to make its goals. We can afford to be very conservative.

Ya'll are still having trouble with Modes. I think the manual, in the Modes chapter is very explicit on how to stay in the right mode once you've started but it is weak in how to select the right Mode to start with. Once you have made one OTR bet, even if it was a 0 bet, the 3rd bet rule in the manual keeps you in the right Mode. The manual even tells you how to fix it if your Mode keeps going back and forth from 2 to 3 to 2.

So the only question should be: Yeah but which mode do you start with? Right? It depends on how much you already know when you lose 2 bets for the first time:

If you started mid shoe you can simply look back to see which way your 3rd bet would have won last time OTR or against the run.

On the other hand, if it's too early in the shoe and you are dealing with the first run of the shoe it is the most conservative to start in Mode 2. Why? Because Mode 2 cannot incur a 4 bet but Mode 3 CAN.

Recognize that it is not important which mode you start with BECAUSE Until you confirm the Mode, you are always going to make the third bet of your prog only 1 unit. You could even make it a 0 bet if you want. In the sample games I always made it a 1 bet. From there you simply go by which way that 3rd bet would have won OTR (Mode 2) or ATR (Mode 3). So, if you lose your 3rd bet you switch Modes then and there for the next time it comes up. If your 3rd bet won you stay in that mode until your 3rd bet loses.

Like I said in the manual, that way works better than any other and you don't need any events count or sap chart.

Now, the only thing that can go wrong is if the Mode keeps changing every time it comes up. In that case just stay in Mode 2 and use a 123 prog on your OTR bets. You know, if your i bet OTR loses, next time make it 2 and if that loses next time make it 3. That is as conservative as you can get but it still won 40 shoes in a row.

If you are still in doubt, you need to study the Mode chapter some more. You are probably making it harder than it actually is.

Or, the sample games will clear this up because I marked the mode changes in red.

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hi Ellis

can you explain more about OTR of OTB4L ? when we you it and how ?

Thank you

Kevin, it is exactly the same as the other 2 systems. You go OTR after either 2 (Mode 2) or 3 (Mode 3) losing bets depending on which way your 3rd bet would have won last time. The difference is that with OTB4L you need to do this with both straight and ZZ runs. You can easily end up in one Mode against Straight runs and the other Mode against ZZ runs. But you do it the same way: Which way would the third bet of your prog have won?

BTW, as I've said many times before, nothing says you MUST go OTR. If you aren't seeing any runs, why bet on them??? After 2 losing bets, simply wait for the run to end w/o betting at all. That is another good way to handle your first OTR bet. After 2 losses simply don't bet and note which way your bet would have won.

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Hello Ellis,

I am a newbie with NOR and I just completed reading your updated NOR manual. When playing NOR, is it necessary to keep an EC (events count) or use SAP when attacking live tables? Can one be successful with the consistent wins, tracking only the O/R, modes 2/3, and applying the correct system of play?

Would like to attempt to keep this very simple without all the record keeping on the scorecard.

Also, do "Modes" 2/3 change only when an OTR bet comes up? (please clarify)

Thank you,

jrry

Exactly right jrry. Let's not complicate things unnecessarily. Almost right: A Mode change comes up every time you lose your 3rd bet of your prog, whatever number of units you decided to make it and regardless if you made it OTR or ATR (against the run)

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Regarding playing frontwards vs playing backwards: If you were to plot all events againt their norm for 10,000 shoes as I have done, you would quickly see that in nearly every shoe the frequencies of events work their way away from the norm rather than toward the norm. Events only return to norm after MANY shoes but we play the game in single shoes. Regarding the last 5 plays or in the case of Maverick, the last 7 plays, let me remind you - shoes can't count.

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Btw, if you are a nerd like me and you are interested in replicating such graphs here is how you do it. Use 8 1/2 By 11 I/4" grid paper in the horizontal position.

Draw a heavy horizontal line straight across your paper half way down the page. That is your 0 axis. Use different colors for your different plots. Each half space across = one play. Vertically, you can use full spaces.

Plot P vs B

O vs R

1's vs 2 or mores

2's vs 3 or mores

3 vs 4 or mores and 4s vs 5 or mores

You will find when you finish that your plot looks like a christmas tree laying on its side with the top of your tree on the left hand end and a wide base on the right hand end.

I did this on transparent acetone so I could then make a pile of them and then hold that pile up to a light. Very interesting.

Tip: Don't let anybody see you doing this! They'll likely call the white coats.

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BTW, a novice might be thinking, since Bank wins more hands than Player, why don't I simply go to the casino and keep betting one unit on Bank.

Three reasons:

1.) The edge is so close that you could easily have 100 shoes in a row wherein Player was the overall winner.

You could die of old age before.....

2.) Commission would more than eat up all your profits because Bank only players pay twice as much commission on average - even in so called no commission Baccarat.

3.) You can get shoes with 60 players in them. How much money did you bring?

The problem is even worse for Player only players. It's like trying to play a whole golf course with only a putter.

However I've seen golfers that would probably be better of..... Just forget about ever winning any matches...or any shoes. I don't care how rigorus your betting is. Overall, you lose.

Yeah, yeah, I know there's that Target guy. He'll see the light sooner or later. Plus, anybody that steals a system name from Jerry Patterson is doomed to..... Ha, Nancy's wrath!

Who's Nancy? Jerry's wife. A staturesque woman you do NOT want to get on the wrong side of.

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Hello Ellis,

I am a newbie with NOR and I just completed reading your updated NOR manual. When playing NOR, is it necessary to keep an EC (events count) or use SAP when attacking live tables? Can one be successful with the consistent wins, tracking only the O/R, modes 2/3, and applying the correct system of play?

Would like to attempt to keep this very simple without all the record keeping on the scorecard.

Also, do "Modes" 2/3 change only when an OTR bet comes up? (please clarify)

Thank you,

jrry

jrry, as soon as you can, you want to advance from selecting your system from the OR count only to also knowing what events each system likes most and also what each dislikes. A little practice with each system will see you selecting the right system almost every time.

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I've said for 30 years there are only two ways to win at Baccarat:

1.) Know one system thoroughly and also know how to find the shoes you one system will beat.

2.) Know multiple systems and which one will beat the shoe at hand.

Actually NOR does a little of each.

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