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So I know how to do an OR count (a miracle in itself considering math was never my strength), and I'm refining my ability to identify the shoe bias, I just need some clarification on a few things after reading through some more threads. Please correct me where I'm mistaken.

1. Is there a glossary of terms?

2. Are modes 2 and 3 backup for when regular betting in S40, F, and OTB4L starts to go south? Sometimes I'll see a post saying starting a system in mode 2 or 3. I thought modes 2 and 3 were for when you start losing, then revert back to original system. What am I missing here?

3. I'll have an explanation of the modes next to me and I lose 8 hands in a row. When I try correcting (because obviously I'm in a wrong mode, though I won't know why) I just make things worse. How do I go about remedying this?

There is sure to be more questions on the way. I'll probably be very slow to learning this. I thank you for your patience in advance.

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So I know how to do an OR count (a miracle in itself considering math was never my strength), and I'm refining my ability to identify the shoe bias, I just need some clarification on a few things after reading through some more threads. Please correct me where I'm mistaken.

1. Is there a glossary of terms?

2. Are modes 2 and 3 backup for when regular betting in S40, F, and OTB4L starts to go south? Sometimes I'll see a post saying starting a system in mode 2 or 3. I thought modes 2 and 3 were for when you start losing, then revert back to original system. What am I missing here?

3. I'll have an explanation of the modes next to me and I lose 8 hands in a row. When I try correcting (because obviously I'm in a wrong mode, though I won't know why) I just make things worse. How do I go about remedying this?

There is sure to be more questions on the way. I'll probably be very slow to learning this. I thank you for your patience in advance.

Hey mate ...settle down...don't worry about it too much...it will all become clear as you progress and it will be like a light bulb turning on in your head.

I was probably a bit slower than most to grasp NOR...but now I reckon that I could play it in my sleep...(which is a good thing coz at my age... it can be hard to tell) lol

Firstly...check out Ellis's 3rd post referred to by "G" above http://www.beatthecasino.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=7505

Just a partial answer to your question about modes...With NOR...you are always in either M2 (Mode 2) or M3 (Mode 3)

Generally...you will start S40 (System 40) in M2 ...which simply means that you just play opposites until you lose 2 bets in a row...If you lose 2 opposite bets ...then you go on the run (OTR) ...This simply means that if you have been betting opposites in this example PBBB...your first bet on Bank would be a winner...and your next 2 bets would be on Player which lose ...so your next bet would be to bet on the run of 3 Banks continuing...If that bet wins ...you generally bet on the run continuing and would place another bet on Bank...and then revert back to betting opposites

If your first bet on Bank loses (your 3rd bet)...then you are in the wrong Mode and switch to M3 (Mode 3) which means that you now continue betting opposites until you lose 3 opposite bets in a row ...and then you place your 4th bet on the run ...but REMEMBER THIS...If you are in M3...you only make the one bet on the run and then revert back to betting opposites...and since your previous 3rd bet on opposites was a loser...you now switch back to M2

"YOUR 3RD BET IS YOUR GUIDE TO MODES"...If it wins...you are in the correct Mode...If it loses...change Modes...

There are some fine tuning tips that Ellis has posted...but this is basically how you determine your Mode selection.

With OTB4L... You generally start in M3 and again you bet on the run after 3 losing bets... ie:..PBBBBB... B...After making your 3 losing Player bets in a row against 3 Banks you will bet on the run of Banks continuing and make your 4th bet a bet on Banker...if it wins...that means that there have been 6 Banks in a row...so you switch right back to OTB4L ...(after your 4th bet you wil revert back to OTB4L win or lose)

Again...there are more fine tuning tips available from Ellis about dealing with runs .

DON'T FORGET...IF YOU LOST YOUR 3RD OTB4L BET when in Mode 3...You then switch to Mode 2 after your OTR Bet

The same rules apply to ZZ (Zig Zag) runs...but remember when counting ZZ runs...you include the last of the previous straight run ie: PP PBPBP...is a ZZ run of 5

Also...REMEMBER TO KEEP TRACK OF YOUR ZZ RUNS AND STRAIGHT RUNS SEPARATELY BECAUSE YOU CAN BE IN DIFFERENT MODES FOR ZZ RUNS AND STRAIGHT RUNS.

All this has been explained by Ellis and Steve in the Manuals and on the Forum many times...but sometimes it helps to look at things from another viewpoint...

Hope this helps a touch...and hang in there...it will all become clear

Oz

BTW: Don't forget..."ALWAYS BEGIN YOUR SHOE BY FLAT BETTING SINGLE UNITS UNTIL YOU GET YOUR FIRST WIN...and then you can start your progression"

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Hey mate ...settle down...don't worry about it too much...it will all become clear as you progress and it will be like a light bulb turning on in your head.

I was probably a bit slower than most to grasp NOR...but now I reckon that I could play it in my sleep...(which is a good thing coz at my age... it can be hard to tell) lol

Firstly...check out Ellis's 3rd post referred to by "G" above http://www.beatthecasino.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=7505

Just a partial answer to your question about modes...With NOR...you are always in either M2 (Mode 2) or M3 (Mode 3)

Generally...you will start S40 (System 40) in M2 ...which simply means that you just play opposites until you lose 2 bets in a row...If you lose 2 opposite bets ...then you go on the run (OTR) ...This simply means that if you have been betting opposites in this example PBBB...your first bet on Bank would be a winner...and your next 2 bets would be on Player which lose ...so your next bet would be to bet on the run of 3 Banks continuing...If that bet wins ...you generally bet on the run continuing and would place another bet on Bank...and then revert back to betting opposites

If your first bet on Bank loses (your 3rd bet)...then you are in the wrong Mode and switch to M3 (Mode 3) which means that you now continue betting opposites until you lose 3 opposite bets in a row ...and then you place your 4th bet on the run ...but REMEMBER THIS...If you are in M3...you only make the one bet on the run and then revert back to betting opposites...and since your previous 3rd bet on opposites was a loser...you now switch back to M2

"YOUR 3RD BET IS YOUR GUIDE TO MODES"...If it wins...you are in the correct Mode...If it loses...change Modes...

There are some fine tuning tips that Ellis has posted...but this is basically how you determine your Mode selection.

With OTB4L... You generally start in M3 and again you bet on the run after 3 losing bets... ie:..PBBBBB... B...After making your 3 losing Player bets in a row against 3 Banks you will bet on the run of Banks continuing and make your 4th bet a bet on Banker...if it wins...that means that there have been 6 Banks in a row...so you switch right back to OTB4L ...(after your 4th bet you wil revert back to OTB4L win or lose)

Again...there are more fine tuning tips available from Ellis about dealing with runs .

DON'T FORGET...IF YOU LOST YOUR 3RD OTB4L BET when in Mode 3...You then switch to Mode 2 after your OTR Bet

The same rules apply to ZZ (Zig Zag) runs...but remember when counting ZZ runs...you include the last of the previous straight run ie: PP PBPBP...is a ZZ run of 5

Also...REMEMBER TO KEEP TRACK OF YOUR ZZ RUNS AND STRAIGHT RUNS SEPARATELY BECAUSE YOU CAN BE IN DIFFERENT MODES FOR ZZ RUNS AND STRAIGHT RUNS.

All this has been explained by Ellis and Steve in the Manuals and on the Forum many times...but sometimes it helps to look at things from another viewpoint...

Hope this helps a touch...and hang in there...it will all become clear

Oz

BTW: Don't forget..."ALWAYS BEGIN YOUR SHOE BY FLAT BETTING SINGLE UNITS UNTIL YOU GET YOUR FIRST WIN...and then you can start your progression"

Thanks for the input, but I think I'm even more confused now.

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Thanks for the input, but I think I'm even more confused now.

EEagle,

When in doubt and starting out here, take the time and effort to literally sit down at the living room table with a full shoe (6 or 8 decks as it were) and start to play by the rules and make each bet so that you understand WHY you're making that wager.

Yes, it will be agonizing slow for the first two or three shoes but it WILL get you up to speed on what do to at each turn of the card.

Write it down on the scorecard and if you don't know what the next wager is or WHY you're making it just stop. Look up the answer, and continue on.

Obviously this isn't for the casino play, it's for that grinding practice every day until, like others have stated, "you can do this in your sleep".

Many a night (at least early on) I would just be laying in bed and run "what if" hands in my head and if I couldn't come up with the correct answer, I'd get up and look it up.

There are many ways to study this and reading the material is only one of them. Try the hand dealt play on a table with notes for EACH hand. That should really help bring out the how and why of the appropriate wager.

MVS

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Thanks guys! When I saw this post yesterday right after writing two exhaustive mode posts and right after inventing a modeless NOR simplified system for those who can't get it - well I simply skipped down to the next post. There is just nothing more I can do.

Emerald, everyone here went through a learning curve. They all started out just as confused as you are right now. Stay away from casinos during this stage. It will pass.

Think about this: If it were easy to learn how to beat casinos - there would be no casinos.

Also think about this:

Casinos have countermeasures.

They know nearly every system out there.

If you play TB4L, for instance, they know how to beat you.

If you play Opposites they know how to produce Repeats in the next shoe.

The same if you play Repeats or any other system on the market.

BUT, when you play NOR, they don't know what the hell you are doing because you never seem to do the same thing twice.

There is no counter measure!

But we hope they try one because then we will beat them even better.

NOR thrives on casino countermeasures!

Maybe that will give you some incentive.

The guys are right. Take it one step at a time. The fog will eventually dissipate. Then you will be laughing at the simplicity of it. Every part of NOR fits in and depends on the other parts. Soon you will see it as one homogeneous approach that actually works. Maybe not every time but all we are after is USUALLY. That is good enough as long as you react quickly when it doesn't work.

There is a glossary of terms some place but you don't need it. Any term you don't know, just ask.

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Thanks for the encouragement. I will devote every free waking minute to studying. Should have gone to college to major in NOR.

Well, no need to devote every minute of the day to it. A mere hour or two a day should suffice.

When you think about it, sitting down at the table and dealing and writing for and hour should really bring the concepts into focus.

However, you'll probably find that once you really get engrossed in the play by play of writing them down, the time will fly by.

The next thing that happens is the wife starts yelling from the back room around 2am. Something along the lines of "are you still screwing around with those cards again?"

MVS (The wife is a slot player. What the heck does she know anyway?)

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Just played another live online shoe. Great results. Ended up 16 units ahead mostly betting only 1 unit at a time win or lose. My goal is comprehension, I was just fortunate enough to see it manifested in winning. I played OTB4L the whole way through. I only lost 2x in a row only 1 time, which brings me to a couple questions and observations.

1. What am I supposed to do when I lose 2 in a row playing OTB4L? It worked out for me this time, beginner's luck perhaps. Here is how it played out in my shoe. PPBPBBP

The 2nd P I bet and win. Next up, bet B and won. I bet B again but it turns up P (loss 1). No big deal, an opposite just happened so I'll bet a repeat on P, turns up B (loss 2). At this point I'm in damage control mode and following Mode 2 I go OTR for B. I win that bet, and I decide to jump Off The Run and go back to standard OTB4L and bet P. I win that and 2 more after it making it 3 wins in a row.

2. In hindsight I made the correct decision, but is that the usual correct thing to do?

3. Is OTB4L in Mode 3 by default?

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Well, no need to devote every minute of the day to it. A mere hour or two a day should suffice.

When you think about it, sitting down at the table and dealing and writing for and hour should really bring the concepts into focus.

However, you'll probably find that once you really get engrossed in the play by play of writing them down, the time will fly by.

The next thing that happens is the wife starts yelling from the back room around 2am. Something along the lines of "are you still screwing around with those cards again?"

MVS (The wife is a slot player. What the heck does she know anyway?)

Slots is additional commission husbands pay to play Baccarat.

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"The 2nd P I bet and win. Next up, bet B and won. I bet B again but it turns up P (loss 1). No big deal, an opposite just happened so I'll bet a repeat on P, turns up B (loss 2). At this point I'm in damage control mode and following Mode 2 I go OTR for B."

EmeraldEagle,

Actually, by betting on second-in-a-row Banker, you opted for Mode-3 rather than 2. In Mode-2, you would have gone OTR after TWO losing OTB4L bets. Think of it this way, in Mode-3, you are a bit more stubborn and resist switching strategies longer. Thus, you opt to stick to the same strategy (OTB4L; S40; or F) for one extra bet. In any event, in this case, your move worked out... congrats!

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Just played another live online shoe. Great results. Ended up 16 units ahead mostly betting only 1 unit at a time win or lose. My goal is comprehension, I was just fortunate enough to see it manifested in winning. I played OTB4L the whole way through. I only lost 2x in a row only 1 time, which brings me to a couple questions and observations.

1. What am I supposed to do when I lose 2 in a row playing OTB4L? It worked out for me this time, beginner's luck perhaps. Here is how it played out in my shoe. PPBPBBP

The 2nd P I bet and win. Next up, bet B and won. I bet B again but it turns up P (loss 1). No big deal, an opposite just happened so I'll bet a repeat on P, turns up B (loss 2). At this point I'm in damage control mode and following Mode 2 I go OTR for B. I win that bet, and I decide to jump Off The Run and go back to standard OTB4L and bet P. I win that and 2 more after it making it 3 wins in a row.

2. In hindsight I made the correct decision, but is that the usual correct thing to do?

3. Is OTB4L in Mode 3 by default?

EE, below is how I believe you would play out the sequence you posted. I ran the sequence both ways, assuming you were in Mode 3(M3) and then assuming Mode 2(M2). As you can see, M3 was the better choice in that sequence. In M3 you never lost your third bet and you would still be in M3 at the end of the sequence. In M2, you lost your second bet at play #5 and went OTR for zig-zag(zz) with a player 3 bet. You lose the OTR bet, so you are back to OTB4L with a player 4 bet and you are now in M3 for your zz runs, but still in M2 for your straight runs.

Hope this helps.post-6350-14500261526923_thumb.jpg

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At this point I'm in damage control mode and following Mode 2 I go OTR for B.

As you can see in the M2 column sequence in the post below, if you were going OTR in M2 your bet would have been on player not banker, because you would be going on a zig-zag run and a player bet would be the continuation of the current zig-zag run.

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Hi Gman,

I like your chart, it has always been so clear and understandable where it helps me to understand the correct procedure on the application of NOR. Thanks. Please do more of S40, F and OTB4L. It really help me to be more confident in understanding NOR. Really appreciate.

Tanpohh

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Hang on Gman, I've got to check on the private memberships of these guys. This thread appears to be on the public forum but I can't tell for sure. I'll check with Keith when its a decent hour. If so, it needs to be removed.

Meanwhile, Tanpohh, Emerald, do you guys both have NOR manuals?

Have you studied them at least ten times?

Do you have access to the posts that have been recommended to you?

Do you have access to the hundreds of shoes and play by plays that have been posted on the private forum?

Have you studied the private forum?

Why are you reacting as if this were the first shoe you ever saw played?

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Oops! I hope I haven't done something I wasn't supposed to. I thought this was a thread in the private NOR forum. At least that's the way it comes up on my computer after I log in. Maybe I should lay low for awhile and let the experts respond to questions. I was just participating really to help with my learning and if that possibly helped someone else, well, even better.

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Hang on Gman, I've got to check on the private memberships of these guys. This thread appears to be on the public forum but I can't tell for sure. I'll check with Keith when its a decent hour. If so, it needs to be removed.

Meanwhile, Tanpohh, Emerald, do you guys both have NOR manuals?

Have you studied them at least ten times?

Do you have access to the posts that have been recommended to you?

Do you have access to the hundreds of shoes and play by plays that have been posted on the private forum?

Have you studied the private forum?

Why are you reacting as if this were the first shoe you ever saw played?

Mr. Davis, this is the NOR forum. To answer your questions, yes I have the manual. The green worm with the glasses on page 11 is a nice touch. Would you like my invoice number for when I purchased it as well?

I wasn't keeping track of how many times I studied it. Should I be?

I have studied other posts by you which have been somewhat helpful in understanding modes.

Gman's post was the first scorecard I have seen broken down, though if you could point me to the sample shoes I would be most grateful.

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Mr. Davis, this is the NOR forum. To answer your questions, yes I have the manual. The green worm with the glasses on page 11 is a nice touch. Would you like my invoice number for when I purchased it as well?

I wasn't keeping track of how many times I studied it. Should I be?

I have studied other posts by you which have been somewhat helpful in understanding modes.

Gman's post was the first scorecard I have seen broken down, though if you could point me to the sample shoes I would be most grateful.

Sorry, nothing personal. I have to check now and then - part of my job. Wouldn't be the first time. Correct, my mistake - it IS the NOR forum even though it appears to be in the public forum on our front page index.

Played shoes and play by plays are all over the NOR forum. Just scroll down a few threads. I just threw out a couple hunded so I could see the top of my desk again. Probably should have sent them to you and Tanpohh. I seldom get through a day W/O playing a shoe for somebody or other.

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Oops! I hope I haven't done something I wasn't supposed to. I thought this was a thread in the private NOR forum. At least that's the way it comes up on my computer after I log in. Maybe I should lay low for awhile and let the experts respond to questions. I was just participating really to help with my learning and if that possibly helped someone else, well, even better.

No, you're fine and your efforts are greatly appreciated. It was me who was screwed up - too early in the morning.

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Hi Gman,

I like your chart, it has always been so clear and understandable where it helps me to understand the correct procedure on the application of NOR. Thanks. Please do more of S40, F and OTB4L. It really help me to be more confident in understanding NOR. Really appreciate.

Tanpohh

Tanpohh, you recognize that Gman has drawn out the plays on a regular casino type scorecard, right? You scare me a little with the use of your term "chart". All instruction in this forum, one way or another, is about filling out your "score card" correctly. That is what you should be practicing.

In some of the play by plays posted I put the 3rd bets in red to make it easier to follow the application of thr third bet rule. You get that right, you automatically get the modes right. It is as simple as that. You need to look up such games and follow the play instruction until you see why each play and each bet was made the way it was. It is all already here on this forum. You just have to dig a little. That is how everyone here learned to play correctly including Gman who has only been a member since July. You've been a member since 2007. That is why it scares me when you still call a score card a chart as if it was newly invented yesterday.

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In some of the play by plays posted I put the 3rd bets in red to make it easier to follow the application of thr third bet rule. You get that right, you automatically get the modes right. It is as simple as that. You need to look up such games and follow the play instruction until you see why each play and each bet was made the way it was. It is all already here on this forum. You just have to dig a little. That is how everyone here learned to play correctly including Gman who has only been a member since July.

The above is good advice to new members for sure. Go to the NOR+ thread to page 7 of the thread I believe and in post #292 you can see the shoes Ellis is referring to. Then go to post #300 and read the play by play he posted. These are really great posts to study. Stuck in between those posts at post # 296 is a great post about selecting the right system. It's a must read and print out for future reference, I have and refer to it in my binder often.

Digging around in the Forum and reading the posts has been very informative and Ellis and others have obviously spent countless hours providing members of the forum a wealth of baccarat knowledge. I've especially enjoyed reading the old posts in the NOR forum starting back at the beginning. There are some great posts there. I'm especially enjoying looking at the posted shoes and commentary from a Sands trip back in early 2011 I believe. Those are good reads. There were a few Ellis posts in the thread titled "Sands II" that I even printed out for my binder.

There's great little "gems" of knowledge out here in the forum, take the time to search them out, you won't be sorry.

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