todays bacarrat @ sands worth every penny

[Guest]

Sands Shoe #6 scan 0033 - See post 9 for link (played NORSAP)

OK, about the only advantage SAP has over NOR is 3 or mores. When we have an abundance of them vs 2s, SAP bets on the 3rd

circle while standard OTB4L doesn't - UNLESS we NOTICE the abundance of 3 or mores. We don't talk about this much but it is a

very cool trick of the trade to notice high 3+s vs 2s playing NOR.

In shoe 6 3+s start out about even with 2s. But 3+s start to take over in column 2 and then they go crazy in col 3. When we see this

it is our DUTY - OUR JOB to start betting on the 3rd cirle of 3s until that bet loses - always turns out to be a 1 bet so there is virtually

no risk involved. That is the ONLY deviation from standard OTB4L.

So OK, at hand 49 I notice that 3+s have virtually taken over the game. SO, I start betting 1 unit on the 3rd circle of runs at play 52.

Just be sure to adjust your OTR bet placements accordingly so that you are going OTR on the same circle as you ordinarily would -

(see play 65)

See the huge difference this makes in this shoe? It even turns the 4th col into a breeze rather than a nightmare. We score an easy +40

this way with only a single 4 bet in the whole shoe. See that? It's a very good trick to remember - isn't it!

[wsemitra]

I have a question about the new rule sir.

Where can I read the new rule that you just add and when should I use it.

minus or count go mode 2 and else go mode 3 is that right?

Thank you sir

[Guest]

Sands Shoe #7 scan 0034 - See post 9 for link - straight NOR+ OTB4L starting M3

OK, this one might be a little boring after what we've seen so I'll use it to make a few last but very important points.

First, The OR count is PLUS when I get to my first straight 3 at play 17 so I go M3 (our chop mode)

But notice I hit a very easy +15 in only 2 cols.

Here is something I hear every freaking day: " I was doing just fine with OTB4L until I hit a run!"

Look, ALL shoes have runs! You can't pick up your marbles and go home every time you see a run.

Look at the 6iar in the 2nd col. We hit it the worst possible way - in mode 3. Mode 2 would have killed it.

But we do just fine and we would still be just fine had it gone 7 or even 8. And don't forget we always have

the option of staying OTR if we are seeing lots of long runs (7 or mores).

And we have the option we discussed before of going On Off On Off etc - my personal favorite. That totally

tames runs into something highly profitable - certainly nothing to be afraid of.

OK, what are your questions on any of these 7 Sands shoes???

[ECD]

Well no ztomsk - there is no mistake. I'm playing standard OTB4L from the beginning. I lose my 3 ZZ bet at play 16.

That puts me in Mode 2 for ZZs. (the 3rd bet rule) I win my 4 OTR at play 17. That was an M3 bet so I only stay OTR for the one bet.

So I go back to OTB4L at hands 18 and 19. That is my 2 losing bets for M2 so I go OTR at play 20 and win. Since I

am in M2 I stay OTR for a 2nd attempt at play 21 and lose my 2 bet so a 3 bet is due regular OTB4L which I make on P

at hand 22 - the regular OTB4L bet since I lost my OTR 2nd attempt.

Play 21 is a second OTR bet which looses, so play 22 reverts back to OTB4L. As play 20 was a player, how is the OTB4L bet on play 22 also a player? Same question Ztomsk asked.

[Guest]

I have a question about the new rule sir.

Where can I read the new rule that you just added and when should I use it.

For straight runs - minus OR count go mode 2 otherwise go mode 3 - is that right?

Thank you sir

Well first Thailand, welcome to the forum! You need'nt be so formal here - just call me Ellis or whatever

Yes, you've got it exactly right! Note that I edited your version of the rule slightly to make it a perfect description.

About the only thing that could go wrong is if the OR count happens to be exactly 0 when your first STR 3 bet comes up.

In this case simply go by the count signs. Mostly + is Mode 3. Mostly - is Mode 2.

Nothing works perfect every time. But this new way works a whole lot more often than the old way - Mode 3 for OTB4L

and Mode 2 for S40. The old way was really quite stupid of me. I just wasn't giving it enough thought. The new way

will reduce the frequency of hitting our stop loss right off the bat just as it did with several of these Sands shoes.

We want every bit of edge we can possibly get. All these tricks add up!

[wsemitra]

Well first Thailand, welcome to the forum! You need'nt be so formal here - just call me Ellis or whatever

Yes, you've got it exactly right! Note that I edited your version of the rule slightly to make it a perfect description.

About the only thing that could go wrong is if the OR count happens to be exactly 0 when your first STR 3 bet comes up.

In this case simply go by the count signs. Mostly + is Mode 3. Mostly - is Mode 2.

Nothing works perfect every time. But this new way works a whole lot more often than the old way - Mode 3 for OTB4L

and Mode 2 for S40. The old way was really quite stupid of me. I just wasn't giving it enough thought. The new way

will reduce the frequency of hitting our stop loss right off the bat just as it did with several of these Sands shoes.

We want every bit of edge we can possibly get. All these tricks add up!

Well, suppose that 3rd bet come with plus or count so we go mode 3 right or wrong we continue playing the game and next 3rd bet come with minus or count so the question is we go mode 2 or still go to mode 3.

[Guest]

Play 21 is a second OTR bet which looses, so play 22 reverts back to OTB4L. As play 20 was a player, how is the OTB4L bet on play 22 also a player? Same question Ztomsk asked.

Whoops! Right, I see it now. Both you guys are right. It should have been a 345 on B since the 2 is an OTR attempt and we are in

Mode 3. Sorry about that - needed coffee. But it doesn't change much. Sorta balances out with my mistake in score addition.

At least you guys are paying attention.

[Guest]

Well, suppose that 3rd bet come with plus OR count so we go mode 3 right or wrong we continue playing the game and next 3rd bet come with minus or count so the question is we go mode 2 or still go to mode 3.

Right, the new rule ONLY applies to our starting mode and only to the first 3 bet caused by a straight run. After that,

Mode is determined by the 3rd bet rule.

[MVSeahog]

Ellis,

Thanks for the play by play in this thread. Very much appreciated.

In fact, I just went back and read the entire thing again to pick up the little bits I may have missed the first time around!

MVS (uh, that would be the new start. Got it now)

[Guest]

Yes I agree. We need to increase our odds by knowing when to start betting and how to make sure that we are using the correct system from our very first bet. I just found out that both CT casinos use pre shuffeled cards. I had no idea! They always had the cards face down, so I assumed that they were regular cards. My mistake. Something that I never would have looked at if not for our Sands trip.

Ellis, I have watched how both casinos deal now - Mohegan deals 2 consecutive cards to the player first and then 2 to the banker side.

Foxwoods - deals 1 to the player side and 1 to the banker side and so on. In your opinion does this matter?

I seem to have a tougher time in Foxwoods, would love to have your thoughts on this, Ed

Wow, if that is true about Mohegan, 2 to P and 2 to B, I'm shocked that the players would allow that. It is definitely against Baccarat dealing rules. Also that would be inconsistent with the card readers in the newer dealer shoes. Any self respecting Asian would leave the table immediately. Check to be sure you are right about that.

I have no idea what effect this might have on the game if any.

[Edgonsal]

Was my mistake. Just the way Mohegan turns them over (both at once). Sorry to waste your time. Can you put me in touch with some CT NOR players? Work has slowed down again and I have more time to spend in the Casinos. It would be nice to meet some NOR players around here . Thanks, Ed

[LittleJim]

Ellis

Thanks for posting the shoes, And the play by play, much Appreciated.

I think this makes one of the best Manual you have written.

LilttleJim

[kachatz1]

Wow, if that is true about Mohegan, 2 to P and 2 to B, I'm shocked that the players would allow that. It is definitely against Baccarat dealing rules. Also that would be inconsistent with the card readers in the newer dealer shoes. Any self respecting Asian would leave the table immediately. Check to be sure you are right about that.

I have no idea what effect this might have on the game if any.

Just in my opinion, but if cards have been shuffled with no ' funny business' in mind, and are shuffled by the shuffle master, seems over a series of shoes that there would be no effect?

One might TRY to attach a significance to this, but would there really be any over a large number of hands played?

[bac-cracker]

Question about this shoe.

Hand7 was actually M3 for your first 3 bet and it was a +1 Or count at Hand6, hence why I would play this. Wouldn't this keep me in M3 at Hand10 since it isn't your first 3bet and you stay in that mode until 3bet rule changes your mode?

Other than that you would have got it right for modes, is that correct?

Sands shoe #2 scan0028.pdf‎(472.8 KB, 5 views) Hit the link at post #9 below.

OK this short shoe I managed to screw up too. Everything was fine up to play 10.

I did my OR count from where I started playing. So at play 10 I went M2 according to the -2 OR count.

But I had missed the first 5 plays of the shoe which were B1211.

I should have done my OR count from the beginning of the shoe which would have given me a PLUS OR count at the critical play

putting me in Mode 3 - as I played it here.

So at that point I was really down in the dumps - TWO stupid mistakes.

[bac-cracker]

At Hand5, you were in M2 because of the -OR count, got that.

At Hand19, there is another 3 bet that you were in M3 for ZZ, should this have been in M2 since it didn't lose yet?

Next question for you was in this shoe there were many mode changes for streak and I remember you mentioned if this happens, you stay in one mode, would you try to attempt this here.

In this shoe it went M2, M2, M3, M3, M2, M3.

Great play and the SAP really helped out as I get a lot of those 3+.

Sands Shoe #6 scan 0032

[Guest]

At Hand5, you were in M2 because of the -OR count, got that.

At Hand19, there is another 3 bet that you were in M3 for ZZ, should this have been in M2 since it didn't lose yet?

Next question for you was in this shoe there were many mode changes for streak and I remember you mentioned if this happens, you stay in one mode, would you try to attempt this here.

In this shoe it went M2, M2, M3, M3, M2, M3.

Great play and the SAP really helped out as I get a lot of those 3+.

OK, you're talking Sands game 6 played OTB4L/SAP.

First, we must always look at ZZ and ST 3s separately with OTB4L. With S40 we don't.

We haven't lost a ZZ 3 because none has come up yet until play 19.

The OR count doesn't control ZZ 3 starts - only ST 3 starts.

OTB4L already beats single 1's automatically so we don't need to worry about those.

But only M3 beats a double 1. So we stay M3 on ZZs until we get a triple 1 or longer.

This is because double 1's are so common in OTB4L shoes.

Triple1's or longer usually means S40 which automatically beats all ZZs every bet no matter the length. See that?

[bac-cracker]

Ok, just to clarify. The new rule for starting mode only applies to ST runs?

So even if we are starting in M2 based on the new rules, we will stay on M3 for ZZ?

And of course if in M3 based on new rules, we will still be on M3.

Hmmmm, or do you have 2 sets of new rules, one for ST and one for ZZ

So when your first 3bet on ST is (-), you go M2. Then if your first ZZ 3bet is (+), you go M3?

Thanks for your help

OK, you're talking Sands game 6 played OTB4L/SAP.

First, we must always look at ZZ and ST 3s separately with OTB4L. With S40 we don't.

We haven't lost a ZZ 3 because none has come up yet until play 19.

The OR count doesn't control ZZ 3 starts - only ST 3 starts.

OTB4L already beats single 1's automatically so we don't need to worry about those.

But only M3 beats a double 1. So we stay M3 on ZZs until we get a triple 1 or longer.

This is because double 1's are so common in OTB4L shoes.

Triple1's or longer usually means S40 which automatically beats all ZZs every bet no matter the length. See that?

[Guest]

Ok, just to clarify. The new rule for starting mode only applies to ST runs?

So even if we are starting in M2 based on the new rules, we will stay on M3 for ZZ?

And of course if in M3 based on new rules, we will still be on M3.

Hmmmm, or do you have 2 sets of new rules, one for ST and one for ZZ

So when your first 3bet on ST is (-), you go M2. Then if your first ZZ 3bet is (+), you go M3?

Thanks for your help

Well, you've almost got it.

Right, for OTB4L the first ST 3 we go by the OR count. - = M2; + = M3

and 0 OR count we don't bet that play at all. We are better off to save our 3 bet for the next play.

The first ZZ 3: -OR = M3; + OR = M2 (the exact opposite of what we do with ST runs)

Again at 0 OR I think we are bet off to delay our 3 bet.

In the Webinar I will discuss what to do with subsequent 3 bets both ST and ZZ. We can do better than the 3rd bet rule -

which most were having trouble with anyway.

BUT Math says there is a better way than the 3rd bet rule. It just never dawned on me before.

Also I will discuss the 3 bets for S40. I think we can do better than the 3rd bet rule with S40 also.

And I will discuss 3 bets for F.

And a major discussion of Mode 1 for all 3 systems but especially for S40.

Mode 1 turns S40 into a STREAK system which works particularly well in shoes that are not SS -

the same shoes where F often flounders. It is much like having a 4th system that beats a common shoe type we currently lose to.

This Webinar will vastly improve the play of all who attend.

[ECD]

Well, you've almost got it.

Right, for OTB4L the first ST 3 we go by the OR count. - = M2; + = M3

and 0 OR count we don't bet that play at all. We are better off to save our 3 bet for the next play.

The first ZZ 3: -OR = M3; + OR = M2 (the exact opposite of what we do with ST runs)

Again at 0 OR I think we are bet off to delay our 3 bet.

In the Webinar I will discuss what to do with subsequent 3 bets both ST and ZZ. We can do better than the 3rd bet rule -

which most were having trouble with anyway.

BUT Math says there is a better way than the 3rd bet rule. It just never dawned on me before.

Also I will discuss the 3 bets for S40. I think we can do better than the 3rd bet rule with S40 also.

And I will discuss 3 bets for F.

And a major discussion of Mode 1 for all 3 systems but especially for S40.

Mode 1 turns S40 into a STREAK system which works particularly well in shoes that are not SS -

the same shoes where F often flounders. It is much like having a 4th system that beats a common shoe type we currently lose to.

This Webinar will vastly improve the play of all who attend.

Ellis, perhaps it is just me, but I am confused about the upcoming webinar. Here you describe a clear agenda of topics for the webinar, however in the sign up it is called the 4D seminar and in the description it describes a learning experience focused on 4D.

[bluetri]

In earlier posts it is stated that the 4d was a misnomer, way2fast. The 4d is still in the development stage.

[Sport]

i have invested a lot of money in this bac club.i have been to vegas and i have purchased everything that ellis has developed.also been to sands clinic,gas alone cost me $150.today i looked below and noticed 92 members have read this thread.so why are there only 12 members signed up for saturday?your getting e.clifton davis for 4.5 hours @ $28.88 per hour.are you guys serious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i made $1000 bucks @ the sands,if the rest of you out there are only making minimum wage or unemployed and can't afford $130 for this SATURDAY you should not be GAMBLING take your money to church on sunday and say a prayer for yourself! i hope only that those who attend get to read and post about it.i'm sick and tired of the free loaders!any questions.

[bac-cracker]

Last night, while I was reading the new rules, I thought there could be different rules for OTB for ST and ZZ runs... Although there are a lot of things that can happen with super streak to super choppy that messes up the numbers, which there probably is something for that later on. Just need to digest everything and have rules and memorize it all... Thanks

Well, you've almost got it.

Right, for OTB4L the first ST 3 we go by the OR count. - = M2; + = M3

and 0 OR count we don't bet that play at all. We are better off to save our 3 bet for the next play.

The first ZZ 3: -OR = M3; + OR = M2 (the exact opposite of what we do with ST runs)

Again at 0 OR I think we are bet off to delay our 3 bet.

In the Webinar I will discuss what to do with subsequent 3 bets both ST and ZZ. We can do better than the 3rd bet rule -

which most were having trouble with anyway.

BUT Math says there is a better way than the 3rd bet rule. It just never dawned on me before.

Also I will discuss the 3 bets for S40. I think we can do better than the 3rd bet rule with S40 also.

And I will discuss 3 bets for F.

And a major discussion of Mode 1 for all 3 systems but especially for S40.

Mode 1 turns S40 into a STREAK system which works particularly well in shoes that are not SS -

the same shoes where F often flounders. It is much like having a 4th system that beats a common shoe type we currently lose to.

This Webinar will vastly improve the play of all who attend.

[bac-cracker]

I won't be able to make the 8am in my time. I just verify if I sign up I will be able to watch the video anytime I like (download it, or watch via your site or private youtube?)

[Edgonsal]

" ABOUT RUEBELS POST "

i have invested a lot of money in this bac club.i have been to vegas and i have purchased everything that ellis has developed.also been to sands clinic,gas alone cost me $150.today i looked below and noticed 92 members have read this thread.so why are there only 12 members signed up for saturday?your getting e.clifton davis for 4.5 hours @ $28.88 per hour.are you guys serious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i made $1000 bucks @ the sands,if the rest of you out there are only making minimum wage or unemployed and can't afford $130 for this SATURDAY you should not be GAMBLING take your money to church on sunday and say a prayer for yourself! i hope only that those who attend get to read and post about it.i'm sick and tired of the free loaders!any questions.

I was at Sands too and left $400 by simply following Ellis in the early shoes! 2 losing shoes in a row really sucked. Changed my perspective for the whole day and put a very bad taste in my mouth. But I manned up and accepted the loss as a learning experience to ALWAYS play your own game!

So please calm down RUEBUL and just be grateful for your win that day. You're coming across as a bully which is not what anyone wants to hear or deal with!!!

[Sport]

i think edgonsal you said in one of your posts that you were just going to show up @ the sands because you didn,t know it was a paid[$300] clinic and that you thought it was free.if i am right i will continue [ and if i wrong i am truly sorry and please accept it] but like i said in another post that even if saturdays webinair is free people would still complain!YOU ARE REALLY SOUNDING LIKE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.[FREE LOADERS]PEOPLE HAVE PURCHASED A $600 NOR MANUAL AND EXPECT ELLIS TO WORK FOR THEM 24/7 FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE.NO WONDER HE'S SICK!!!!!