NOR Chicago -- Chicago players--- check in here for players near you

[brad01]

interesting

My casino uses alternating decks machine shuffle but starts with preshuffled

Always produces otbl but with some long ZZ and straights.

This is otbl but with less long streaks

I daresay these machines are timed or set up to produce otbl as that's all that seems to come out of them.

[XDN]

Milwaukee Nor member here...i'm a newb and would love to sit in with some of you. I've been coming up to speed on S40 and have had decent luck.

I noticed something interesting at Potawatomi Friday, you more experienced members probably already know what i'm about to type so just have a good chuckle at my naiveté. I watched a table for the last 10 hands, it was very biased/streak shoe so I thought I would play that table. I've read in some of the posts here, playing a table that had a bias previously is likely to generate a bias in the next shoe. Also during this biased shoe I noticed the pit boss walk over to a "card vault" (don't know the proper name but its to the left of the dealer, holds about 4 shoes worth the cards. The pit boss walks over, pulls out 1 set of cards, picks them up, caresses them like they were his baby and put the back in them vault. I didn't think too much of it.

So the shoe ends and I watch the dealer, she is shuffling the cards manually...so far so good, after she shuffles, she puts the shuffled cards in the vault and pulls out the very set of cards the pit boss was caressing earlier. I know for a fact I have seen dealers hand shuffle and put the cards back in the shoe. But...I also heard that every table was loosing while I was there. So something was up. IMHO they may have designer shoes they put in play I was having the dealer hold a spot for me and left a "save chip." I went over, got my save chip and left, I am not equipped to play designer shoes at this point.

What do you guys think, are they doing some sleight of hands to put some factory shoes in with hand shuffled or are they just randomizing decks over the session?

Either way, it was an eye opener. After reading here, I understand some places put designer shoes into play but are they now trying to actively disguise this fact? I also noticed that particular table was EMPTY for like an hour. My guess is the locals know it.

So now my new project, in addition to winning 8 chips is, if they are indeed mixing designer shoes with hand shuffled, is to bait them into putting the designer shoes in play and not playing the table. And to spread the word on the DL about this to the regulars.

[brad01]

From what I know about card shuffles if they are steaky then they have been played a lot - played, reshuffled, reshuffled etc

That's certainly what we used to be taught here.

One things for sure:

Why they got streaky doesn't matter - casinos don't like strong streak as its dead easy for players to win - even amateurs

All you have to do is sit back and look at lines of the same colour and back it.

Of course they will change the cards to get rid of that or they will keep losing

They will change to preshuffled or machine shuffled or they will get someone to shuffle who knows how to get rid of the streak - if there is anyone trained to do that and its possible - I don't really know

They will go to mixed bias - changes from chop to streak to OTBL or strong OTBL or random

Not many players know how to handle that.

My casino do not do handshuffle - they machine shuffle after every shoe and alternate decks so they never allow a bias like that to form

But the shoes always seem to favour OTBL so I can use that to my advantage as machines are programmed a certain way and quite likely there will be a consistency.

Well picked XDotNet - once you learn all of NOR then I would suggest to learn MDB+ as that is what is designed to handle those preshuffled cards without any strong NOR bias.

By the way MDB+ will also work for biased cards too - but not the other way round - NOR has a tough time to work against preshuffled as you found out and so did the players as they left the table because all of a sudden they started losing when they couldn't play repeats.

[XDN]

My wife just introduced me to Bac recently and before playing I started to read anything I could, thats when I landed on NOR. It seemed to be a good place to start, I have no doubt MBD is better but i'm experienced enough in life to know one must walk before running. So here I am.

I would like to get information about the boot camps and online learning opportunities.

[brad01]

That's true - start with NOR

I would suggest you are doing well to start with S40 and be able to pick what's going on in the casino in terms of card manipulation

Keep it up

[Ntrl9]

Brad-

I have to disagree with you on this one. IMO learning MDB+ is essential to being a well rounded player. Depending on what type of shoes you see NOR may not be the best way to play in your casino. I may be a bit biased (pun intended) because I am playing MDB+ almost exclusively these days. In all the casinos that I've been in recently there is NO consistent bias. In fact I have been seeing shoes that may develop a bias in the short term but not last very long. I play short term S40 or Otbl for 2 or 3 units when I see the opportunity but never for longer than about 10 plays. If a player is new to baccarat it is hard to play NOR because they usually pick the wrong system or the get caught constantly changing systems and lose their shirt.

Xdotnet if you are going to play NOR be aware of what is going on in the shoe. If you see the bias begin to change wait to see what is going on with the shoe.

Good luck-

NTRL9

[ECD]

Brad-

I have to disagree with you on this one. IMO learning MDB+ is essential to being a well rounded player. Depending on what type of shoes you see NOR may not be the best way to play in your casino. I may be a bit biased (pun intended) because I am playing MDB+ almost exclusively these days. In all the casinos that I've been in recently there is NO consistent bias. In fact I have been seeing shoes that may develop a bias in the short term but not last very long. I play short term S40 or Otbl for 2 or 3 units when I see the opportunity but never for longer than about 10 plays. If a player is new to baccarat it is hard to play NOR because they usually pick the wrong system or the get caught constantly changing systems and lose their shirt.

Xdotnet if you are going to play NOR be aware of what is going on in the shoe. If you see the bias begin to change wait to see what is going on with the shoe.

Good luck-

NTRL9

Wow! This is such a GREAT post, full of very accurate and highly U$EFUL advice. Well done Ntrl9 -- you have perfectly described the best way to be a winner in virtually every shoe. Beginners (and even more experienced players) often struggle with NOR -- they typically play the wrong system for the shoe, and they "buy into" the rules and 1234 progression without paying attention to what is actually happening in the game in front of them. Far better to use the awesome NOR-based methods for brief periods and low win goals (as Ntrl9 explains), while basing your play with MDB+ - a method which is still winning 93% of all signals, across hundreds of real shoes in casinos all over the U.S.

Edited October 19, 2015 by ECD

[brad01]

Hey totally agree with you guys in that the sooner you learn MDB+ the better - I had to the option of joining NOR first or MDB+ and I chose MDB+ (complete package) as well.

Looking at it from a learning point of view and $$ point of view though some may prefer to take it one step at a time and just buy NOR and then when they get the idea of that then upgrade to MDB+

Especially with the new pricing structure which I'm not totally up to date with.

[brad01]

In regards to casinos changing cards etc I remember reading the book 'The Midas Touch' by Bruce Irwin. He describes incidents where he was playing blackjack and winning consistently and the pitboss changed dealers to a particular chinese dealer with a new deck of cards.

He says as soon as that happened no matter what he did he just could not seem to win many hands.

He changed tables and the dealer followed him wherever he went and he continued losing before he was forced to walk out.

The next day he stood back and watched and whenever there was anyone with a winning streak that same dealer with the same set of cards appeared.

Quite an interesting story not sure if there was any cheating going on but regardless it goes to show that the casinos will not allow you to keep playing and winning without changing the cards on you.

[XDN]

Anyone playing at Potawatomi or Rivers Saturday or Sunday Oct 24 or 25th?

I'm a newb and would love to sit with one of you guys. 2 weeks ago I had a good week with S40...bad shoes were -2 to 0, good shoes +10 to 15. But the the past 10 days i've played 4 shoes, i've been down 10 in less than 40 games. The first thing I notice is the modes rarely ever work for me. Even in the good shoes, if I start M2 it doesn't work, go to M3...doesn't work. This is scary constant. Like 80% of the time I miss the mode, meaning when I try to go OTR it switches back on my first OTR bet no matter what mode I choose (i'm using the OR count... M2 for + or M3 for -)

Tonights shoe, hand shuffled, new table, new cards, just out of the packs

P2123421111443 (and out at -10) I jumped in at the first banker, missed M2 on the first 3, missed M3 on the next 4 (down 7 after 10 bets) didn't bet the 2, got healthy on the 1s, missed M3 on the 4, tried M1 out of desperation, got 2, missed M3 on the 4 and the last bet on the 3 was my stopping point.

My guess is I misread the shoe (and my guess is thats a very common problem with newbs), maybe it was a OTBL shoe or a shoe with no bias and I shouldn't have played it. I'm still positive about the system, when I got an S40 shoe it nailed it and I don't mind dropping some coin to learn.

To answer a previous comment...I can't buy MTB+ now. If I can learn NOR and get it to work, I will buy it then. I realize that with NOR I may have to wait all day for the right shoe, or watch when a shoe changes and get out. I just can't afford the $1800 now. I'm hoping to get my bankroll up so I can buy it but for now i'm playing $10 units until I feel confident I can play correctly.

So...anyone playing this weekend? I'd love to get some practical education. I would really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you!

[ECD]

ArkSobo plays at Rivers a lot. Great guy, knows how to play the shoes at Rivers. Look him up.

[brad01]

Not from USA so cant help you there.

As soon as unit size permits planning to move to Vegas or at least go visit and say hi to Kevin and others.

What you said is exactly right though.

I said in my previous email that can anyone really predict the modes correctly?

I don't believe you can - consistently enough.

In fact the switching between modes is actually what MDB+ is all about so MDB+ being successful in this regard means NOR with modes will not be.

As you experienced S40 is a good system - maybe the best basic system for baccarat.

When you play it on the right shoe its great but when you don't its not - the problem is how do you know until its happened.

My advice if you don't want to get MDB+ and want to earn your $$ back first will be:

Look for short term NOR Setups

if you see 1's and 2;s play s40 and try and capture a few units - 1 or 2 then stop

Wait for the change - if its 2's and 3's then do the same for OTBL 1 or 2 units

Look for the change - 3 or mores - bet repeats - 1 or 2 units

Chop - bet opposites (really S40 without allowing for 2's) 1 or 2 units

no 2's - do the same with TB4L / S40 m1 - 1 or 2 units

Don't bet every hand - aim to win a few units per shoe but consistently - feel like you cant lose in a shoe - fine then go for it but capture a profit no matter what.

Keep a tight stop loss - 5 or so

Don't increase progressions past 3 units at most - consider flat bet (that's how I bet now)

Increase your bank and unit size.

Bulldozing through a shoe with U1D2M2 used to seem ok and will dig you out of trouble a fair bit but in reality when you get to about 4 or 5 unit bets you are more often than not past the point of no return.

[XDN]

ArkSobo, I just sent you a PM asking if you would mind a tag along. Are you going to be playing Rivers any time soon? I'd appreciate the chance to learn. Thank you!

[Illinois Player]

I would agree that the biases in the casinos shoes just like Rivers casino are changing frequently.

A solution might be figuring a current bias and jumping in to win few units before the bias changes again.

The bias change might be every 20 hands or even every 10 hands so one must be careful.

But couple units here and couple units there do add up so it is worth it after all.

XDOTNET please see my PM.

Thanks

Ark

Edited October 22, 2015 by ArkSobo

[brad01]

A sniper sit patiently waiting for the target. When it comes they don't miss and they only need 1 round

Then they move on to the next job and start again.

An unskilled guy will start a firefight and waste all his rounds and will end up injured or dead - unless he gets lucky and some of his bullets hit the target straight away.

Decide which way you want to play

[XDN]

Got to play with MtMan at Potawatomi Monday night. We had a perfect S40 shoe. He picked up in it about 10 hands sooner than me, but I'm a newb...and got there eventually :-) he had to leave for dinner and I left+6 about 1/2 way through the shoe. I wish I could have stayed longer, I walked past the table after cashing out. It was still s40. Oh well have to keep the family happy too haha. Thanks MtMan it was fun!

[mtman]

Hey XDotNet,

Yah that was alot of fun!....it most always is when you are gifted with such a perfect shoe to exploit! After dinner i walked back past the bacc tables to see if you were still around but you had left. Well the shoe we were playing was still in progress and S40 was still chugging along full steam ahead. I went ahead and continued charting on my card from where i had left for dinner. Well the count got up to +25, and then finally ended at +23. I wanted to jump back in, but sometimes you think that it just looks too good to be true, but in this case it was true. Oh well, i was happy that we both made some coin and had a good night. It was great to meet you, and it sure felt good being able to talk the same language at the table with a fellow player, instead of having to listen to most everyone else's hocus pocus methods out there! See you back at the Potowatomie tables soon!

mtman

[XDN]

Just keep a good eye on the shuffling

Since we played I went back once and sat in seat 1 right beside the black boxes....yep auto shufflers. I felt the table vibrating, looked over and it said "416 cards/shuffling." I distinctly remember that S40 shoe being table shuffled, the cards were put directly back in the shoe. After that, every shoe I have played there is the auto shuffler garbage they talk about on the forum. I get about 5 1iars early, they throw a couple of 4's in a couple of 6-8's and a nice pyramid there which hammer S40 (i'm getting hammered on 4's with s40 as mode selection seems to rarely work for me) ...so i've got some more reading to do.

Summary of Potawatomi Shuffling Shenanigans

1. Cards are "show" shuffled on the tables, those cards are dropped into the auto-shuffler.

2. Dealer gets a shoe of cards from the auto shuffler and you get the no bias/short run/baiting shoe.

3. Once in a while they table shuffle the cards and put them back in the shoe.

-MtMan - Do you remember the pit boss waited about 10 minutes before letting the dealer finish

the shoe before we jumped into that s40 shoe?

What is your opinion? Was he waiting on the call from "upstairs" to allow a table shuffled

shoe instead of the auto shuffled shoe?

Thats my guess. There really wasn't any reason for him to stop play that long.

I'm going to have to pick up brads OTBL M2/M3 method to work the auto shuffled shoes, then keep S40/NOR for those rare hand shuffled decks. Next time you go, let me know if you pick up this same kind of shuffling shenanigans.

[brad01]

You are right casinos don't like strong chop or strong repeat as anyone can look at the boards and win

All you have to do is look for a lot of Zig zags and bet alternate or look for lots of chops and bet same

They prefer OTBL as not many people know it but even so OTBL type play has been around for a long time too.

Often I found those shufflers to produce OTBL types but even then the modes hurt you.

OTBL although can handle a loss each way both straight and zig zag also loses each way if your modes not consistent which it never is.

Don't worry casinos know modes too.

MDB+ can deal with that in fact it thrives on it - its the very reason why it works

kachatz's 4D / 5D is worth a read and learning too - it can deal with this inconsistent card types too.