Need help with 4D please !

[ClarkD4]

Hi all of you esteemed players!

I am new on BTC, bought NOR manual few weeks ago and since then studied intensely the General and NOR forum. Did not play yet, just analyzing some shoes posted here and some of my own.

I intend to focus only on internet casinos, live dealer and searching through forums I found the amazing tool 4D live analyser (congratulations to Keith with the idea and PeterUK with the effective tool!). I read everything about 4D, analyzed some shoes with this tool but...don’t understand how it works during real play. I also followed the 'Intro to NOR Baccarat' presentation on Youtube where at some point someone said 'NOR is good but ultimately one should learn 4D because it is more complete' so I studied them both (NOR and 4D). I understood and liked NOR but seems like 4D is adding something and don't know exactly what...

I don’t see any recent posts on the subject – almost all were november 2013 – april 2014 and little afterwards. So I wanted to ask are there players who still use it and how does it work?

What I understood, as a summary, is that we should look at the lowest spread (say -2 to +4 or -1 to + 5 etc) and bet the opposites against what comes – or net bet on the column with lowest disparity until it goes above 6 (as in my 2 examples). Or we could SS bet on the highest count that it goes higher.

I tried both approaches (lowest spread and highest count) but not with so good results. It’s like something is still missing from my understanding or I apply it in a wrong way. From the discussions it seemed 4D is the highest approach for regular cards (internet) – but I don’t seem to get what to do about ‘the counts should stay in the jail of the lowest spread - max 5 or 6’ and ‘bet SS that the highest count will go even higher’ (which a lot of times is not the case for both, it’s the other way around). Not to mention I have to go from 1D to another when it goes higher (for O/T to O/R , for example). This is simple, I understand how to change the column but not sure if it’s still the right.

I did not see any clear rules for 4D – are there any or there were only discussions and we reverted to simple NOR (or, other people to MDB and MDB+)? Is anyone still playing 4D (maybe live online dealer...or land casino, no matter) and could explain more (here or via PM)? I think it’s easy to use it online – half the screen the live dealer, other half the 4D analyser, as soon as the result comes you put it in the analyser and in 1 second you have all the results. I use it like this live to gather info about some shoes at an online casino - but what to do with them and how to play effectively??

Thank you very much!

All the best and lots of success to you all!

Clark

[Ntrl9]

Clark-

Welcome to the forum it's an amazing place to learn everything baccarat. Kachatz1 is the man for 4D. He has adapted it to include some MDB+ bets and calls it 5D. Right now I play MDB+ almost exclusively and I can tell you that upgrading to MDB is the way to go. If you know NOR and MDB you will be prepared for anything the casino throws at you. Most of the new post are on the MDB forum including some discussion about 5D if I'm not mistaken. Good luck in your Baccarat play.

Ntrl9

[ClarkD4]

Thank you for the answer, Ntrl9!

I have a friend who knows and plays only MDB+ (showed me just a little) but he did not study 4D at all (just read about it ) and is not playing online at all. He told me (and I also read here) that for online casinos MDB+ is not as suitable and better stick with NOR + 4D. This is why I'm asking.

So I would be pleased at least to learn 4D properly...maybe the 5D you mention (4D + MDB+) is too much and not really 100% necessary with biased shoes online (meaning we can still win at least 5 units per shoe only with 4D). As I understand reading from threads, 4D is not so much about choosing a system, but playing specific bets (like 'highest count goes higher' or 'lowest count stays in jail') - so similar to MDB+ somehow, not with NOR.

So for me, as I intend to focus entirely only on online live dealers, and with the amazing 4D live analyzer tool, I think this would be best (not MDB+). I also study NOR and probably will play it online, but somehow I have the impression that 4D is easier and has more logic and consistency.

Still waiting for answers from someone who plays it... Thank you for mentioning Kachatz1 - I read a lot of his posts, I know he is very good with everything on Baccarat.

All the best!

Clark

[brad01]

I also try to learn 4D and I have progresses but it does take a while so still not there

you have to learn how to record and interpret the 4 counts very quickly

I might suggest starting with PB count and just play shoes recording this and use it to predict your plays

do that for say 2 weeks then add OR as well.

then 2 weeks add OT.

then finally OOTT

if you try to record and analyse all together its very hard from the start

[ClarkD4]

Ho brad01 and thank you !

Having the 4D analyzer I have all 4 calculations on spot (but I learned to do them quickly also).

Problem is what to do with them. As I understood reading the threads, in 4D we do not necessary use them to choose a NOR system (even though we could) , but to make specific bets that some events will happen (similar somehow with MDB+). Events like 'highest count goes even higher' (a 6 going to 9 or 10 on OO/TT, let's say) or 'lowest count stays in jail (in the 5 or 6 value spread as -2 to +3 or -3 to +3, for O/T, let's say). But from analyzing shoes I noticed this is not always happening and applying these procedures I won 1-2 units or even lost. Also, interesting to note how we can combine low side with high side at the sime time making a 2 units bet when they point towards same play (P or or 'no bet' when they contradict (if someone does this already or if it's a good idea).

So it must be something that I miss or I use the 4D in a wrong way and don't know all details. I did not see any clear rules, meaning maybe it was still work in progress and get abandoned somehow...don't know...But I see a lot a value...maybe 4D for online playing is something similar to MDB+ for Las Vegas and Asia

Regards,

Clark

[Ntrl9]

Thank you for the answer, Ntrl9!

I have a friend who knows and plays only MDB+ (showed me just a little) but he did not study 4D at all (just read about it ) and is not playing online at all. He told me (and I also read here) that for online casinos MDB+ is not as suitable and better stick with NOR + 4D. This is why I'm asking.

So I would be pleased at least to learn 4D properly...maybe the 5D you mention (4D + MDB+) is too much and not really 100% necessary with biased shoes online (meaning we can still win at least 5 units per shoe only with 4D). As I understand reading from threads, 4D is not so much about choosing a system, but playing specific bets (like 'highest count goes higher' or 'lowest count stays in jail') - so similar to MDB+ somehow, not with NOR.

So for me, as I intend to focus entirely only on online live dealers, and with the amazing 4D live analyzer tool, I think this would be best (not MDB+). I also study NOR and probably will play it online, but somehow I have the impression that 4D is easier and has more logic and consistency.

Still waiting for answers from someone who plays it... Thank you for mentioning Kachatz1 - I read a lot of his posts, I know he is very good with everything on Baccarat.

All the best!

Clark

Clark-

I play MDB+ online just about every day. I use betonline.ag and 5dimes but with 5dimes they are definitely more biased shoes. I have posted and PM others exactly this in the past. I played a S40 shoe to +22 last night at 5dimes. At 5dimes I still use MDB+ but more as an indicator of when not to bet. Betonline produces mostly random shoes and I do very well with MDB+ and short term NOR (10 plays or less).

Ntrl9

[ClarkD4]

Ntrl9, I was not aware that MDB+ has such success for online casinos...from what I read and been told, it was mostly for preshuffled and less for biased...but you know better since you play it successfully...

So for the moment I will stick only with NOR and 4D. Problem with NOR is that there are so many options that I got confused and dont know exactly how to start and what to do if shoe changes (which happened to me in my training). Should I start with S40M2 or OTB4LM2 and stick with it till the end or should I change mid shoe if 4D counts (or SAP counts??? which ones'?) are telling me it's better to do it? At least they cover opposites and part of runs - some repeats then...So to use 4D as an indicator for the NOR system to play, not as a tool in itself for play (which I don't know yet but wish to learn, if someone knows how exactly...

Thank you!

[brad01]

Kevin described 4D as being able to predict when the shoe will change.

There is no definite rules

If you see a count that's stays even then netbet

If you see a count that goes one way then bet with it

I think thats the theory

The counts may follow a max where once they hit it they will go back the other way.

Knowing how to interpret all the counts together is the key but it is not easy to do in reality

[Sport]

yes,I totally agree he is one of the best and he is willing to give you his all. thanks again to kevin kachatz

[ECD]

...from what I read and been told, it was mostly for preshuffled and less for biased...

A myth, perpetuated by those not actually playing MDB+. Preshuffled cards are not always random -- they can be biased. Regular cards are not always biased -- they can be random. Played two perfect MDB+ shoes last night at Ameristar St. Charles -- regular cards.

[ClarkD4]

Thank you all for the answers!

[brad01]

way2fast I agree with you that preshuffled can be biased and hand shuffled can be random.

I have seen handshuffle so random I didn't think an mdb+ signal would form

but

do you have stats to show whether preshuffled are more likely to be random more than regular and regular are more likely to be biased compared to preshuffled?

I want to know if mdb+ is more applicable to preshuffled and nor is more applicable to regular - is that statement true?

Im interested to know and don't have the stats like you would?

[ECD]

do you have stats to show whether preshuffled are more likely to be random more than regular and regular are more likely to be biased compared to preshuffled?

I don't have stats -- just experience. I actually don't even agree with the terms "random" or "biased". In my experience, every shoe has sections which are "biased", meaning that something other than the perfect mathematical outcomes are occurring. And every shoe has sections which might be "random" (whatever that means!), or at least less "biased." Also, random is just another "bias". But here is the thing: in my experience, I have not seen a difference in the results of MDB+ between regular cards and preshuffled cards. Maybe that's not true where you play -- I don't know.

I want to know if mdb+ is more applicable to preshuffled and nor is more applicable to regular - is that statement true?

It sure sounds logical, doesn't it? But where is the proof. Haven't seen any.

[brad01]

Well that was the answer I was looking for - do you have proof that MDB+ is any more effective or less effective with preshuffled vs hand shuffled / regular -No

From your posts it has always appeared apparent that you believed MDB+ is as effective for regular - I just wanted to confirm and see if you had stats.

Your comment about biased vs non biased backs up the fact that most people cant pick 1 NOR system and play it through every hand for a profit most times

[Pando]

This is an interesting debate

I remember walking into Sands Macau and looking at the tables. It was an MDB+

Aladdins cave at the time. Now whether the cards are always like that I don't know

Conversely the Galaxy had shoes that were so short (1's and 2's) that there could not

have been a bigger contrast.

Here in Auckland we had 2 months of MDB+ friendly shoes, now they are NOR friendly

on the preshuffled cards. They change constantly and within the shoe as well.

So I think there are varying kinds of shoes from short through to streaky to MDB+ - now

whether these are a bias or not is the question. The answer does not matter if we know how to play them.

regards

Pando

[ClarkD4]

Still no 4D info from anyone...maybe no one use it at all ?

Regarding MDB - does anyone use MDB in its original form - with BaS40, BaOTB4L, BaS4oM1 and SAP ? Is it still a valid approach? Or only MDB+ (and I understand now there are different rules) ? Just asking...I only read a little about what are they, did not try...Thank you!

[brad01]

4D is valid - ask kevin kachatz

He uses it probably just about every day to win

Although he is about the only public ambassador for 4D here.

The key is not a set of mechanical rules Clark

The most successful players here are the guys who adapted approaches made them work.

Record many shoes and observe the counts and look for opportunities to bet with the strongest count or netbet the most neutral.

Look for the count outer limits to work out when they will change directions

You will figure it out

MDB Baxxx is not valid - this quickly changed to MDB+

MDB+ was a set of triggers

way2fast modified them for himself and everyone asked him to post them so they became the current rules most people play.

[ClarkD4]

Thank you Brad! I realized 4D is not as mechanical as I thought...good your advice...

Yesterday I sent a PM to Kevin and hope he would reply and post in this thread.

So not even the original MDB+ rules as stated by Ellis are valid anymore?

[brad01]

Kevin will reply to you when he gets to it.

Last I heard he had some issues with his inbox being full!

Probably too many people asking him about 4D!

The original rules are valid but it depends on what type of win ratio you are looking for.

You could have a trigger or bet situation that would net you a 95% win rate but it would take you all day to wait until it came up. then all you need to do is flat bet or up as you win (way2fasts latest post) Even when things go bad your win ratio may only drop to 70% which is still high.

For most people that's too long

Then you can have a trigger that nets you a 55% win ratio and it comes up 1 in 4 plays but due to standard deviation or whatever your win ratio could drop to 40% over short term in which case you will need a progression or stop loss to get you through.

This is why original MDB+ rules got stretched slightly and are now generally known as 'way2fast rules' because he stretched them to a point where it raised his win rate but he still had enough bets per shoe to be worthwhile.

So the old rules are still valid but it all depends on how you play and what you want to achieve.

[brad01]

By the way I know of a guy in NZ who used to play roulette and wait for up to a whole day for a certain pattern to occur before he bet.

Some days it wouldn't happen and he would go home.

He would bet high against it when it came and whether he won or lost he would go home.

He won a lot more times than he lost - to the % of 99% win rate or so - so he was a long term winner

He tried to start a website and sell his system but no one had the patience to wait like he did and so he got called a scammer and shut his site down and gave out his system for free for those that wanted to follow it.

As far as I know he still plays it and still wins.

My point is everyone has there own way of playing and what works for some, doesn't work for others but keep an open mind before you write things off as not working.

[ClarkD4]

Thank you very much! Now I understand better...waiting for Kevin...

[kachatz1]

Hey, Clark

PM'd you and will be glad to help

Kevin

[wsemitra]

I don't know where can I study how 4D and 5D work? Am I too late?

[johnnycs1]

Just like any systems on here or out there by other developers....

AT TIMES THEY WORK AND OTHER TIMES THEY DON'T !!

Thats why the search here and elsewhere continues.........look how many Elli's has put out !  

 

 

[brad01]

4D / 5D is the real deal.

Just a little practise in recording and interpreting the counts and you will be on top of any bias in the shoe or netbet conditions