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ECD

Beat The Casino's first $2million Man...

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ECD

Probably the most respected name in Baccarat and one of nature's gentlemen...Norm Allen...RIP

He joined Beat The Casino in November 2009 as a total Baccarat Novice and in a few short years became one of the best. He developed (together with another great...Papa Joe) a non mechanical 2High system which he called "Follow The Shoe" which incorporated a 1 2 LOOP with NO NEGATIVE PROGRESSION.(and also beat Roulette)

Together...They worked on developing and fine tuning their system spending untold hours on the phone each day until Norm hit began his two year assault on the Casinos. He graduated from $25units to $5K units within that period and in the process took took the Casinos for over $2million (which would have been much more but for him passing away in 2014) PJ tells a story of returning to Norm's house after a session in the Casino and Norm struggling to cram $180K cash into his wall safe as the contents tumbled out...LOL

Norm was a bright light in so many lives and his light was snuffed out way too soon.

Norm loathed Negative Progressions and on one occasion when I posted that I'd made a 7 unit bet, he was online immediately with the comment "YOU MUST BE INSANE"!...LOL

He was all work ethic and was convinced anyone could do what he did if they wanted it bad enough and did the hard yards. He said to me once"Stop chasing the Holy Grail Oz...you won't ever find it. Stick to what you are doing and develop it." I took him at his word.

 

This was one of Norm's early posts when he was an out and out rookie until PJ took him under his wing. I'm posting it to show you where Norm came from...his roots. He was just an ordinary bloke...a retired Fireman who became the Casino's worst nightmare.

He would say to you all..."If I can do it...you can do it"

Read his post...recognise how little he knew and think of what he achieved...and ask yourself the question "How badly do I want this?"

 

Norm A

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Posted December 15, 2009 (edited) · Report post

Hi to all

Can someone please help me with RD1.

I have read every post 3 times but I am still confused.

I also read every post for SKOR, OTB4L,TB4L and meet with Paul in Vages who helped me a lot.

But I am still confused (I think I am just thick headed )

I am at the point where I would like to learn just one system at a time, and start with RD1.

The first question I have is where is the shoe image that res is referring to in post 23 ?

If someone could please post a shoe image with detailed rules as how to play and when to switch ( RD1 for dummies ) and refer to each rule in the shoe image ( play by play run down )

I try to follow the shoes that are posted, but get lost without a explanation.

If I could get the rules down pat I could I could get into the different prog latter.

Then I could learn how to analyze the tables for the weakness that fits RD1.

One step at a time I know I could get it with the help from you all.

Thanks in advance for any help I could get.

Thick head

 

This makes me laugh...Norm Allen seeking help...and he found it right here on BTC and developed a bond with PJ that even death can't destroy. His legacy lives on...It lives on in PJ and all the players like me who have taken his words...his teachings and put them into action.

 

I hope that this post of Norm's will give hope to those who think that the casinos can't be beaten...maybe the encouragement that some need to stick at it.

 

Norm Allen RIP

Edited by ECD
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johnnycs1

Thanks OZ ! GREAT POST !

Did Norm actually post how he played his method.....think I read that a few years back back cannot find it in search . 

Or was that PJ...posting the way they both played , he and Norm ? Maybe I should search PJ"s posts ?

Does anyone right off the top of their head know where I could find Norm's or PJ'S methods ?

 

THANK YOU !

 

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ECD

It's on here somewhere. It's really worth the time to read through all Norm and PJ's Posts and watch as they develop the 1 2 LOOP (which Ellis Poo Pooed) and the beginnings of "Follow The Shoe"...It should be compulsory reading for all those who want to beat this game. Both great players in their own right and both gentlemen of the first order.

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Mr.O

I have read all of Norm and PJ posts many times and they are gold, but there is not exactly how to play follow the shoe. There is one PJ post where he said that Norm played ZZ, R, LC, MC, OT and his favourite SS, when you look at all of this its something that we all know. Even Norm said that he is trying to keep his play simple stupid, but i think that there is very few person who knows how he really played it.

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ECD

Norm sent me a copy of "Follow The Shoe". I'm not at liberty to post it without permission. I will ask if it's OK and if it is...I'll post it in the Private Forum.

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Mr.O

I think that we have a same copy, but even there rules are pretty mechanical, i think that Norm was doing waaaay more that that while he was playing.

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ECD

He didn't play it as a mechanical system. He utilised MC and LC events and didn't play a weighted SAP count which actually makes sense. I'm doing the same thing. Funny how no matter how far my game progresses, I seem to keep coming back to Norm's methods. 

He was spot on with his distaste for Negative Progressions. Think about it...Three players on BTC (including Norm) have hit the $1million plus mark and none use a NP... That should tell you something.

This probably as far as I should take this on the Public Forum. 

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Mr.O
6 minutes ago, ozscouser1 said:

He didn't play it as a mechanical system. He utilised MC and LC events and didn't play a weighted SAP count which actually makes sense. I'm doing the same thing. Funny how no matter how far my game progresses, I seem to keep coming back to Norm's methods. 

He was spot on with his distaste for Negative Progressions. Think about it...Three players on BTC (including Norm) have hit the $1million plus mark and none use a NP... That should tell you something.

This probably as far as I should take this on the Public Forum. 

I think that we should continue this thread but not here on Public forum. Since there is no mechanical system that can beat bacc and follow the shoe seems to be perfect solution, it would be great if someone that has deeper understanding of this method can give more advice.

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johnnycs1

Thanks OZ , taking time to answer my question.........back to searching and as you suggested , read every post by Norm and PJ !! 

Or maybe PJ can shed more light on his and Norm's method / bet selection , on the Professional Players section. That would be special ! 

Anyone heard from PJ ? Have not seen him awhile on here .

Thanks Again...........johnny

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ECD

Joe has three priorities in life in this order...

FAMILY...as it should be

GUITAR...He even makes his own(why would that surprise anyone) He practices every day

BACCARAT... He still finds time to study the game and still plays.

I would dearly love to see a movie of the exploits of these two scoundrels in Vegas and Tunica. It would be something else...LOL

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waminc

I played with Norm the last year of his life, 2 out of 3 months he would come to Biloxi.  He convinced me that getting out of the neg prog was the safest and best way to win.  We used to talk nearly every day when he was home, both about bac and also his determination to beat the US roulette wheel.  Kostas was looking into it and having good success with it overseas.  I'll post Norm's FTS on the members forum when I get back later today.  That's basically what I use now with very good success.  

 

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ECD
9 hours ago, waminc said:

I played with Norm the last year of his life, 2 out of 3 months he would come to Biloxi.  He convinced me that getting out of the neg prog was the safest and best way to win.  We used to talk nearly every day when he was home, both about bac and also his determination to beat the US roulette wheel.  Kostas was looking into it and having good success with it overseas.  I'll post Norm's FTS on the members forum when I get back later today.  That's basically what I use now with very good success.  

 

2

Great Post from someone who actually got to play with Norm. Unfortunately...I never had that privilege.

Notice again the emphasis against Negative Progressions. Norm hated them with a passion and again for the benefit of those that came in late...NONE...I repeat...NONE...not a single one of the successful players on BTC play a Negative Progression. Take your pick...

Papa Joe...Way2fast...Kostas...Wolfat...kachatz1...waminc.. Brad...Pando...CT70...  Myself and others. 

How does that compare with the Negative Progression community who almost without exception are continually paying out money to Snake Oil salesmen who guarantee a quick fix...teach unbeatable systems which replace last month's unbeatable systems and the month before that..."Learn how to beat the casino in 30 mins"...continually searching for the Holy Grail? 

As long as there are people out there looking for a quick fix without putting in the effort...there will be a market for these "Snake Oil Salesmen" and the Casinos will continue to welcome their students with open arms.

If it wasn't so pathetic it would be funny. 

waminc is going to post Norm's "Follow The Shoe" method on the Private Forum and it won't cost you a fortune to check it out. But please note...FTS is a guide only that steers you in the right direction and then it's up to you about how much effort you put in.. (Notice...No guarantees...Anyone who guarantees that they will turn you into a winner is a LIAR) If you are after a quick fix (that doesn't work in the long run) then this is not the site for you...plenty of those sites out there. They are telling people what they want to hear and sadly...the gullible will get sucked in. Ask yourself the question...If these so-called Invincible systems were so "Invincible"..."why would these Snake Oil Salesmen be so desperate for the comparatively paltry amount they make when in reality if you were really consistently winning then a single chip would be worth more?"

Edited by ECD
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ECD

I was fortunate to have met Norm in 2012, and played with him in Las Vegas 5-6 times through mid-2013.  I have some stories and interesting emails I will share once waminc posts up FTS in the private forum, including a great story about the famous "60 shoes from Vegas" that Norm played in May 2013 and posted on BTC.  Also have his Majority Mode and progression information (which may be the same info waminc has as Norm was freely sharing it with everyone in 2013).

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ECD

In May 2013 Norm posted 60 shoes he played in Vegas over a couple days.  The shoes played were all at MGM, Aria and Red Rock.  If anyone is interested, I have entered those 60 shoes into Stats for Profit.  They are shoe numbers  258,007 through 258,066.

The frequency of events for these 60 shoes is very close to what you would expect:  1's - 51%;  2's - 26%; 3's - 10%; 4+ - 13%.  Very close to the anticipated distribution of 50%/25%/12%/12%.  Norm absolutely crushed these shoes playing his FTS and MM approach, even though there was no apparent bias across the shoes as a whole.  Never higher than a 2 unit bet, and only betting when there was a well supported reason to do so.   

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Mr.O

Its a pity that we dont have some of his score cards...they would be of great help

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brad01
2 hours ago, way2fast said:

In May 2013 Norm posted 60 shoes he played in Vegas over a couple days.  The shoes played were all at MGM, Aria and Red Rock.  If anyone is interested, I have entered those 60 shoes into Stats for Profit.  They are shoe numbers  258,007 through 258,066.

The frequency of events for these 60 shoes is very close to what you would expect:  1's - 51%;  2's - 26%; 3's - 10%; 4+ - 13%.  Very close to the anticipated distribution of 50%/25%/12%/12%.  Norm absolutely crushed these shoes playing his FTS and MM approach, even though there was no apparent bias across the shoes as a whole.  Never higher than a 2 unit bet, and only betting when there was a well supported reason to do so.   

Just wondering - did you enter them all manually?

2 - 3 mins a shoe x 60 = couple of hrs of your time?!

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brad01

Ok I'm still new to SFP and the options / tricks

Still probably best part of an hr by the time you dug up the shoes and entered them all.

This is the greatest thing about this forum - REAL players giving up their time to help others.

 

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Pando

Brad, The shoes can be entered using a short hand method

Just type in P13223411115676362537221111 or whatever the shoe is

Add the details about the casino, time, date etc

And submit, that's it, really easy

Its a credit to Keith and Mike that we have such a great tool, thanks guys

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XDotNet

This document was in one of Norms posts on the forum from 2010.

Is this still relevant or did Norm progress beyond this?

Look forward to seeing Norms FTS rules!

Norms SAP rules.doc

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Wendel
52 minutes ago, XDotNet said:

This document was in one of Norms posts on the forum from 2010.

Is this still relevant or did Norm progress beyond this?

Look forward to seeing Norms FTS rules!

Norms SAP rules.doc

Nice Catch !!!!

thanks.

 

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ECD
34 minutes ago, XDotNet said:

Is this still relevant or did Norm progress beyond this?

I would say that by the time I met him in 2012 his play had progressed well beyond this pretty basic use of SAP. 

By mid-2013 his play had evolved even from when I first met him.  At that point in time he would  do a lot of waiting for strong signals and then exploit the hell out of them.  And he would never make a bet larger than 2 units.  He would still keep SAP, but would use it only to help make a decision whether to make a third bet after losing two in a row, or to wait for another strong signal.  Otherwise, he pretty much ignored what SAP was saying about LC and MC.  I think that's about all I will say in the public forum.

Hopefully waminc will put up his post in the private forum soon.

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XDotNet

I thought this was a private side thread. Keith if you want to delete my post, I can repost the file in the private side. Sorry about that, no harm intended. 

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waminc

Actually been busy with med stuff.  Got to be tough to get old, right OZ:lol:.  I'm trying to figure out how to paste Norm's guide from 8/23/13.  Different from when I played with him in Vegas when he lived out there.  Forgot what year...2010,11,12?  Note, MOTF(F=FOLLOW THE SHOE) is a GUIDE, not a set of rules.  We were very successful in Biloxi in 2013. 

 

Bill

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