brad01

Its damn near perfect though man if it wasn't for those 2's and 3's! I got to half way thru a shoe today and not 1 x 2 and only a few 3's I played flat bet and 1,2 progression sometimes (I've been influenced by OZ's posts lately) I daresay if I had of played it thru to the end there would of been a 2, maybe many and I would of come out either with a real small win or a loser (depend if I obeyed the stop loss) I think its a real simple system to go to as a default as when your stressed and nothing is working its easy to play and it quite often wins but I think you have to pick and choose your moments and get out when your ahead.

Thanks Stephen, Its a must know I reckon and a perfect system if 2's didn't exist! but unfortunately they do and a lot of times enough to make TBL a break even or a loser. 3's also aren't great as they are break even. On the flip side when 2's or 3's are dominant OTBL kills it which is why its kind of like a reverse system? Another question what are the ones doing - long ZZ or just sporadic like - also makes a difference as to how good TBL will work. I just finished playing a shoe that was high in repeats and when I looked, low in 2's as in zero Switched straight to TBL and actually got out with no 2's showing up as had something else to do and figured I got a good run with no 2's so why test things? Often get that with no 2's showing up but then as soon as they do they often dominate for the rest of the shoe so always be ready to take the win and abandon TBL or you've lost that profit and can end up a loser when the 2's keep coming.

Thanks for the info Oz - the most I've seen you write on here for a while. Have you had a good week or just taken your medication?! (Just a joke)

but for you guys I can understand your point but for guys at lower unit levels the debate continues: If you can do well with flat betting / minor progression then can you not always do even better with a sensible progression going slightly higher? But in reality I find the higher you raise your bets the less you tend to rely on superior bet selection / table selection which is always the best. I guess its a discipline thing Obviously you can only play this way until your BR compounds to hit table limits and becomes scary as you say but the dilemma is could you not get to that point faster using a higher progression than 2 units? Then is it not better to play one way from the start and to never have to adjust it as your bet size goes up even if it takes you longer to get there? I'm torn between the 2 ways but because of the success of Norm and Oz that I've read about I'm leaning towards keeping it flat / 2 max. I just don't know but will figure it out

I would say you are doing pretty well from your results you posted but is it good luck or are you a fast learner? I think its too early to tell I agree with everything trbfla says. I'm always anticipating a change and then if it doesn't happen its a bonus. When you think you see a bias I'm always thinking now what hasn't happened that may happen but also don't miss the obvious - murphy's law when you anticipate the change it wont happen and when you anticipate the bias it will change - that's gambling but a good gameplan will get you thru

Anyone who don't want to join after reading this is either already winning or their never gonna win. You got the big boss coming on and setting things straight and demonstrating how to kill a real shoe using NOR, and you got 2 of the best players on here who play for real and are real posting and 1 complaining about the progression methods because his bet size is too large! What other forum would you see that? The only regret I have is sitting on the fence for 5 years before I joined. I would already be playing full time by now - as it stands I think I have another year to go of hard study, practise and compounding the bankroll.

Thanls for reviving the RD1 system. I'm still learning it slowly its just that I'm thinking it may be better to play F system or NOR as they can account for all types of shoes but RD1 has a hard tome against some ones and twos being the the most common events Although further testing and understanding may change my opinion.

Yes i know what you mean about s40m1. 1 or 2 2's i will take it but 3 2's close i cant keep going. Some good points. I will try s40 m3 / otbl. Thanks

Hey Tim the seminars are really good to do if you are thinking of joining. They go through an overview of what BTC is about and what each of the systems and memberships are applicable for. You can ask questions and talk to Steve and maybe Keith and they talk about how they play a little and its pretty cool especially as its free. Also can pick up little bits of information about the systems as well. Make sure you join except make sure you allow for the time difference or you'll be half asleep! Brad

Hi trblfa. When you say having a good game plan with the 2's for S40 what do you mean? For me S40 means 1's and 1's and 2's 1's are best with 2's just behind in volume - if 2's start to equal 1's I find I would win more with OTBL I guess for me when I choose S40 I don't worry about 2's that much unless its TB4L / S40m1 in which case I would switch if 2's started to show up to their normal frequency or beyond. Maybe you have a different approach or opinion on 2's in relation to S40?

I will also say that Frank Barstow wrote in his book Beat The Casino (appropriate) that the best 2 methods of bet selection that he saw was Repeat (TB4L) and reverse repeat (OTBL). He went on to say that repeat seemed to be the more common and a bet selection that switched between the 2 was better depending on what was coming So this guy had it right years ago A great book from a guy who came into gambling with an open mind Although very basic compared to the level this forum goes to.

Hi way2fast - noted They are exactly the same apart from I remember Ellis saying the way they start - S40m1 always bets opposites and goes OTR after 1 loss where as TB4L will look to bet the same as the result before the last one (2 results ago) so if starting out from the start of a shoe S40M1 would bet an opposite to the last result where as TB4L would need to wait for 2 results to bet the time before last ?? Correct me if I'm wrong here but it makes little difference anyway. But Ellis said he did not include this in original version of NOR as at the time this type of shoe was obsolete but then it returned so he reintroduced it. Nowadays it seems like anything goes so you need to know all systems.

I found lately that what looks like what could be an S40 shoe by the end of the shoe could be and F shoe or a TB4L shoe. S40 at one time was a default system for me but at the moment I'm not so sure. You could have a lot of chops and then all it takes is 1 run on the side of some 2's and that's an F shoe instead Also you can get some chops and some 2's and it looks like being an S40 but then all it takes is some runs and a lack of 2's and its a TB4L shoe. Get some chops and it looks like S40 and then you realise the 2's are equal to ones, and then some 3's and its a OTBL shoe. And vice versa This is described in the manual as overlap. The point is experience can show you what to look for to determine the right shoe and sometimes it can switch over too. Sometimes a highly biased shoe can go the other way and equalise. We have to be like a tight rope walker - balanced for a left or right shift and ready to move at any time and aware that the weight will constantly change but when you get balanced, walk forward for as long as you but don't go too fast or you will lose balance and fall!

Thats what im talking about guys. Lets bring it back. Practise and ask questions and share ideas.

Count me in Pando although I think Perth would be the most miserable tightly run casino in this region of the world. Absolute tight asses - 2 zeros on European roulette for min tables, blackjack + rules which are worse stats for player, Autoshufflers on all BJ tables, No free hands on baccarat tables and still to be confirmed: All banker player bets lose ties on touch tables on main floor !? They do give you free coffee and water if you are a member though! Brad

Thanks Kevin this may help me decide whether to move to Vegas. The cost of living is probably a lot cheaper than here at the moment and there's more casinos so I gotta be in front!

As long as I wrote a story saying: do you dream of travelling the world making the money most people dream about.....

Me too but think hes pretty tied up in baccarat. It seems blackjack is his passion though so maybe he will get over here eventually. It appears with MDB success people are very impatient nowadays and blackjack takes more time to learn than baccarat I definitely will join up the blackjack forum but at moment very focused on baccarat too.

Hi Tim, For me because I was reading this forum for a long time and I saw the progression to preshuffled random cards and MDB came in then I decided that I would join up to both because I was financially able to. But it would depend on ones financial circumstances if they wanted to start with NOR then that would be fine. NOR is ok for shoes with bias and there is plenty of live dealer hand shuffled casinos now so NOR is applicable. You can use it for roulette too but roulette seems a bit more volatile and likely to change in an instant so you have to play a very tight game and lower your win goals and stop losses in my opinion You could make it a goal to win your MDB membership fee. I believe MDB is the best system around ever and forever to come unless 2Hi overtakes it so I definitely think it is worth it to get as well. At the moment I'm playing both together. However I don't think Oz plays MDB - hes got his own method which I believe he devised from NOR and netbetting Whatever you decide I'll do my best to help you and I'm sure others will too

Hey guys, this forum has been a little dead lately, I thought it would be good to try and bring back discussions and posted shoes There's a lot of new guys who only joined NOR or they joined up full and don't post on NOR forum. I think NOR is still valid even in the difficult shoes there can be ways to come out with a small win. Maybe we need to lower win target, not bet every hand, place more imaginary bets, bet a max of 2 units in a 1,2 progression, default to TB4L or S40, wait for the shoe to unfold more, do the bootcamp with Steve etc I'm gonna post up some shoes for discussion Hopefully we can get the older NOR guys back on here, and get gthe new guys skill level up there. I'm relatively new and practising a lot and its starting to come together for me now I just don't see much discussion here or shoes posted so gonna try and change that.

NOR takes a lot of practise as there is many parts to it and you have to know when to apply the right part at the right time. MDB does work for all shoe types but you have to have experience if playing bias as there are some parts that you wouldn't play Vegas there's more chance all the original rules all having good results is what I feel based on what I'm told here. I just posted a shoe from online played this morning where I played MDB and NOR at same time and won both. If you want to learn NOR first that's fine but just to let you know that MDB is still valid and will work on biased shoes so you could be missing out on many MDB bets which would make the cost of it back quicker and you would learn it quicker and possibly be making more $$ quicker MDB has a real high hit rate even for bias shoes I got an 80% hit rate this morning and a 60% PA (player advantage) Post some shoes on NOR forum that you are struggling with and I will have a look and we can go through them I been practising NOR real hard and its starting to come together I think and I would be happy to have a look so I can also learn more

Sorry couldn't resist - felt like a bit of laugh

So basically what you have described supports Ellis's NBJ theory and system - casinos look to clump the cards and keep the tables full to give them n advantage. So its up to us to find the random cards on empty tables. If you research about factory preshuffled they came about to save the casinos time to shuffle by buying them preshuffled so they go straight into play. If they order them in an order that benefits them I guess that's another discussion?

Apparently theres a new system out by a guy called Martin Gale It has a 99% + win rate on all progressions You are guaranteed to win your progression eventually ! Has anyone heard of this?

Hi 7779311, NOR and MDB are still valid and always will be I believe a combination of those 2 approaches will beat anything. If you add netbetting and some other tools then you have it all The problem is NOR has 3 systems and 3 modes and requires table selection and system selection correctly to be successful MDB is mechanical but also requires table selection to get best results and also maybe a little customisation for shoe at hand to get the best results There's guys that have done and are doing real well on this forum with one or both of those 2 but the most successful players seem to bet not much more than 2 units it appears Anyone who wants to put in the hard yards with the above its not a problem - the thing is not a lot of people are putting in the work it appears. Ellis has put himself out on a limb here by creating a universal 2 HI system for guys that are new and don't want to learn table selection, system selection, and money management. They can learn it quickly and play online or in casino and come out a winner straight away. A system that will win more shoes than it loses, have a very tight win goal and stop loss, be pretty much mechanical, and have a max bet of 2 units! Not an easy task! He was also under pressure to release it quickly before it was tested properly. way2fast put a version of 2HI he plays which I have been testing and it looks real logic and effective, we have the original rules here and now the new version so test them out and see if you can put in suggestions to make this thing get there and have faith in Ellis - he made MDB which has a 95% + hit rate so this thing will get there.