ECD

One of our BTC Team hit his 7th winning day in a row yesterday betting no higher than 2 units with the Loop...over 400 units...Not bad...a few more years and he might be as good as me Maybe that's why there appears to be a reluctance for CFC to engage in discussions on the "Rumble in Vegas"...sounds of crickets chirping... BTW: I was taking the piss out of myself just in case you don't understand the Aussie sense of humour

Maybe because I want to test myself against those that claim to be "The Best"...I'm willing to put my reputation and money on the line... but we will know soon enough whether they are prepared to do likewise.

It's time to let bygones be bygones and declare a "Detente" between "CFC" and "Beat The Casino" for our mutual benefit. We have two completely different schools of thought... One one hand we have CFC with it's total commitment to MNPs (Mechanical Negative Progressions) complete with Table Selection and it's reliance on mechanical O/R and SAP counts and choice of Mechanical System and betting every hand. On the other hand, we have BTC moving totally away from Negative Progressions with it's inherent risks and either Flat Betting or utilising a version of Norm Allen's (RIP) 1 2 Loop. (Norm was BTC's first millionaire and multimillionaire player who started with $25 units and within two years was playing with $5K units) Norm played a system developed by himself and Papa Joe which he called "Follow The Shoe" with NO scary NP and only making selective bets. In the main, we have dumped SAP as "Old School" and have moved to a system of tracking combined events and separate Player/Banker events. Norm didn't use SAP as such but he used what he called "Unweighted SAP" and it sure worked well for him. We on BTC do have an advantage though in that Keith has given us the best Baccarat Practice tool on the net where we can play real casino shoes one hand at a time at our own speed. Back to the topic in hand... I'm sure that there is room for the two schools of thought to coexist...Mechanical NP's for those who don't want to spend their valuable time learning all the variances of Baccarat and are willing to take the inevitable losses on the chin and those of us that are more "risk adverse" and are prepared to put in the time and effort that it takes to learn how to "Follow the Shoe" with it's analysis of MC and LC events combined and separate... and also Recent MC and LC events combined and separate and don't feel comfortable with the higher bets required by NP's and being forced by a mechanical system to make what we know are "BAD" bets just because the MS tells us that we must make the bet. I'm proposing that we put it to the test... A meetup in Vegas...The BEST of CFC against the BEST of BTC CFC Players with their Mechanical Progressions v the BTC Players with their full statistical shoe analysis. Proposed BTC Team... Team Leader...w2f ...ct70 ...Kevin ...Vinny ...Oz...and anyone else that wants to put their hand up...Keith?...Andrea?...Pando?...Brad?...etc I will fly to the US specifically for the "Rumble" We will cede Table selection to Ellis and the CFC players effectively giving CFC home ground advantage because we don't need it...We play what we see... Our one request is that we play $500 minimum units which shouldn't be an issue as the CFC players claim to be playing Purple and above anyway and I'm taking them at their word... and $500 units won't be an issue to the experienced BTC Players. How about it Ellis?...This is the game that everyone wants to see. Are you and your people up for it? No angst...No aggro...Just the "Best against the Best"...How cool would that be? Just one thing that has to be said..."If $500 min units is regarded as too steep after 40 years of Baccarat then maybe you shouldn't be selling systems"...just saying What say you people...Is this the "Rumble" that you want to see and would you want to turn up and watch? The ball is in your court Ellis...what have you got to lose? Oz err...Is this where I mention that one of the nominated BTC Team has won over 270 units in the last week (5 sessions) just Flat Betting and Looping? Just an addendum...The Player I referred to above picked up another 70 units today...That makes +340 units in six sessions without a losing shoe...That is seriously good Baccarat Play...especially considering that he is "guessing"...LMFAO

If we are talking $50K in 50 days...I guess I have to reduce my unit size...LOL

Wow Keith, awesome and very thoughtful advice.

In the interest of fairness, I have posted it in it's entirety...together with my answers. I hope that I haven't trodden on any toes. AN OPEN LETTER TO BTC Guys, I’m not the enemy. Your real enemies are the casinos! And they are smarter today than ever before. Their profits today are higher than ever before. Factory Preshuffled Cards were a God-send to the casinos. Somehow they made card fixing legal! Sure, we still get super chop = S40 ! We still get super streak = Repeats ! And we especially still get lots of OTB4L ! Why? Because nobody in the casino can beat them but US. I’m using the term US for old time sake. A member just posted one on my public forum hot from the casino. I played it by the book OTB4L and scored +71 with the 345 progression – err...just a minor detail...You based at 3 so your total has to be divided by 3 which gives you a total of just over 23 units...still pretty good but not anywhere near as dramatic...also interesting to note that somehow you knew to stop at +71 before you hit those 2 losing hands...Clever move...you must show me how you do that sometime. Firstly...That piss easy shoe was not a typical "TODAY" type shoe but a hand shuffled Live Dealer Online shoe. Secondly...This is a typical Ellis played shoe where you can see the whole shoe in advance and miraculously know to start with OTB4L after the first hand and even more miraculously know that it is a prime candidate for the 3 4 5 Progression...still a 29% PA is not to be sneezed at if you had Flat Bet Absolutely the safest Exploit progression there is. Not quite as safe as your "Secret Weapon" 6 7 8 Progression...Remember that one?...It's the one that got me banned from CFC for pointing out that it was the "Progression you play when you aren't actually playing a Progression"...Little difference to Flat Betting...BTW: What ever happened to the "Secret Weapon"?...It was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread I could have lost all 5 5 bets and still win the shoe at +21... That would be 21 divided by 3...You keep forgetting that minor detail I played the same shoe as we would play it now...Flat betting only to get a true indication of the PA Total Bets = 35 Win = +29 Lose = -6 Total = +23 HR = 83% PA = 66% You in effect made 15 BAD losing bets that most of us would recognise as BAD bets but you have to make them because your mechanical system says that you must...That makes no sense at all. We still get Strong Side! I recently Exploited a bunch of them at Lake Charles! We still get Super Random but very rarely – The casinos learned their lesson on that deal!...Yep...cleaning up on those reds and greens will teach em a lesson...The Pit Bosses will be shaking in their boots next time you pop in. Guys, you can’t win every shoe so you need to Exploit in the right situations when your SAP count tells you to...a bit difficult since most of our better players have dropped SAP and have gone with Norm's Unweighted SAP (The SAP you have when you don't actually have a SAP) ...I think it's called an ET...Events Tracker THAT is when you make 5 bets! And that is ONLY when you make 5 bets! BACCARAT IS A GAME OF OPPORTUNITY ! And opportunity presents itself often. Sometimes at the bleakest hour. Casinos are not perfect! Do not sit there and watch opportunity go by. Jump on it. The 345 is the safest way! And BTW, you need to ALWAYS keep a SAP and an O/R count – more important today than ever before! Those counts are your BEST systems identifiers and your best Exploit identifiers...WRONG on so many levels...NO mechanical means of identifying your system choice can come close to learning to read a Toteboard and using that in conjunction with tracking events ...overall combined events...recent combined events...overall separate events and recent separate events. The O/R is for Newbies only and is like taking baby steps...sooner or later you need to grow up and step out with confidence...and SAP, as you espouse, has reached it's "use by date" AND your BEST Leave The Table identifiers. But today we get a whole new type of shoe we have to contend with which we never saw before the advent of Preshuffled (fixed) cards. I don’t know what to call them – I could think of a few things but I will politely call them Mixed shoes. Super Chop turns to Super Streak and keeps switching at different unpredictable intervals. Lots of those at South Point, Vegas. I learned to switch right with them. But that casino ploy cost me my first losing day in 20 years. (I'm not going to dignify this with a response except to assume that you must have been struck on the head with a very heavy object because your memory seems to have suffered) But I got even with them on day 2 and killed them on day 3! TB4L turns to OTB4L and back and forth – Orleans Vegas! You need triggers to switch right with them. You guys had your short fling with GUESSING ( playing W/O a system). 99 point something % of Bac players play that way and THE CASINO KNOWS this full well. They make guessing from history totally impossible and all guessers lose at spectacular rates in a freaking 50/50 game. Is this where I mention that ct70 hit +20 on his first shoe two days ago simply flat Betting with a PA of 55%...From guessing...finished +55 for the session without ever going below -2...He hasn't had a losing day for so long I can't remember...his average PA is high 30's to 40's....w2f playing/guessing with $2K and $3K units as witnessed by two players that were thinking of joining CFC...Do I mention that "Guessing w2f" was actually hounded out of one casino because his guessing was winning more units than they were comfortable with...probably would have been OK if he had been playing those pesky reds and greens...eh?...BTW: They changed the rules to stop his guessing...LOL.. .Kevin...His guessing seems to be working a treat...Vinny has moved towards a more FTS (Follow the Shoe) type game and is going great guns and others doing well...not to mention the greatest "GUESSER" of them all...Norm Allen RIP who went from $25 units to $5K units and over $2million in two years...and me...I must be doing OK...it's my sole income and I haven't had to resort to selling systems to supplement my income. Yeah, yeah, I know full well about the Bank edge but look at it from the standpoint of Opposite or Repeat. EVERY play from play 2 on is one or the other. The odds are exactly 50/50! If you simply flipped a coin you’d win HALF the hands in the long run – yet players average a 43% hands won rate overall because they THINK they can GUESS from history! So much for that deal ! HINT: Betting against the table (with the casino)! Now that’s an even better deal today than ever before BECAUSE the casino Bac profits are higher today than ever before! You might want to give that some thought. I certainly am! HINT: Mixed shoes: When history is meaningless (anti NOR) you want to be Net Betting because it totally disregards history. BUT, you need to know when a side should Suspend and when it should Resume. You’ve got some smart guys over there that could design such a fail safe system. I did! – ANB. Way2fast? Vinny? Kevin? ANDREA? Oz? If ANB is your idea of Failsafe system, I strongly suggest that you stay the F***k away from parachute design HINT: But there is NO single Bac system that wins overall. That simply does not exist – unfortunately, and never will – especially against TODAY’S shoes! You need 6 arrows in your quiver these days – one for anti NOR shoes!...6 arrows...is that all?...LMFAO...I wish I only had 6 arrows and then maybe my head wouldn't hurt so much. HINT: Today the casinos have the players by the balls, especially with their sucker bets, Dragon, Panda and Ties. Those bets are why casino profits are so high – Those along with their new anti history, anti NOR “Mixed” shoes. I looked for correlation – there simply wasn’t any – what seemed to work one day failed the next. Dragon pays 40 to 1 but only occurs 1 in 43. Panda pays 30 to 1 but only occurs 1 in 33. Ties pay 8 to 1 but only occur 1 in 10. Sucker bets for the novices. HINT: So I was playing at Flamingo recently and my chip pile drew a lot of spectators...A chip pile of reds and greens attracted attention??? You must move in different casino circles than I do...LOL One of them yelled out: Ellis, put up $50 on Dragon and I’ll match it ! Before I could say anything the DEALER yelled: “Ellis never bets Dragon or Panda or Ties. He KNOWS better!” THAT ought to tell you something! Later that day at that same table and with the same dealer, with a large crowd of spectators, 6 of us (3 I had just met) ran the table out of chips in 2 shoes, all of us playing ANB by the book! THAT ought to tell you something too! NET freaking Betting! I haden’t seen a “table takedown” in 20 years. I thought it was a figment of Jerry Patterson’s imagination! But there it was for ALL to see in all its glory. Guys, I’m not perfect – I lose shoes too, but I also Exploit when I KNOW the time is right! There is a time and place for 5 bets. I’ve had ideas I’m not proud of, but I’ve had a lot more I AM proud of – like the SAP and O/R and O/T counts and Net Betting and the 345 Exploit and The Plow U1D2 and no losing days for 20 years at any of Caesar’s 40 casinos in spite of being a most frequent player at many of them. It is a 50/50 game plus commission.- nothing more. By far the best odds in any casino. You just need to know how to identify casino tactics and use their own tactics against them instead of falling victim to them. Preshuffled cards stumped me for a time – but not forever. They are a brand new ball game that require brand new tactics but they CAN be beat. I didn’t want to leave BTC – I was banned And it had nothing to do with my play. But, I’m the best you’ve got and I think you know that – even if it pisses you off...I'm not pissed off Ellis about you thinking that you are the best...I don't give a shit...Self Praise is no recommendation, and I could name at least 5 players on BTC that would shit all over you but that achieves nothing and might cause some embarrassment...but I do have a question for you... Given that Norm went from $25 units to $5K units in less than two years...w2f regularly plays with $2K and $3K units and higher (a $40K+ trip isn't unusual)...Kevin plays whatever the hell his mood takes...Andrea pretty much the same...Nick is playing Black a lot of the time...Vinny too...I've lowered my unit size for various reasons but trust me each time I walk out of the Casino, my winnings would cover that New Hummer that you covet (BTW...They are no longer in production...but don't let that stand in the way of your covetting)...so the question has to be asked...20 years with only one losing day...WHY ARE YOU STILL PLAYING WITH $5 AND $10 UNITS?...It just makes no sense...unless...??? The casino is the enemy, not me! I think you know that too. I wish you guys well and good play. Use your heads and Beat those bastards. I wish I could teach you ANB but that would not be fair to the members here...Don't you worry your little bald head about it Ellis...All the top players on BTC already have ANB but none of them use it...Surely that must tell you something. I actually hoped that it would work because it's so much easier than what I do...but in testing, I got smashed...as did w2f and a few others. Papa Joe actually had high hopes...fiddled with it some...thought he had got it to work using it in conjunction with OTB4L but again it crashed and burned. If PJ can't get it to work, that bunch of reprobates on CFC have no chance. While we are on the subject...Why no mention on your Public Forum about all the refinements being made in your Private Forum to try and get ANB to work? It is wrong on so many levels to be flogging off an untested unproven system as a finished product with no right of refund. Also...Please for the sake of honesty...cease and desist referring to Carlos as an "Independent Tester" or "tested by outside source"...That's a blatant lie...He has followed you around for over 20 years...He is for all intents and purposes, your little lapdog...If you told him to roll over and play dead, he would do it in a flash. BTW: You need to have a chat to him about "loyalty"...because the emails he sent me trashing your systems probably aren't high on your Christmas reading list. If any member wants to post this at BTC, I don’t think they will mind – hmm, but you never know about those guys – they invent enemies in their mind. The casino – THAT is your true enemy! You aren't our enemy Ellis...None of us hates you...but we all hate what you do. There is a difference. I hate to see people get ripped off by scammers and like it or not...that is what you have become. Vinny sent this to Ellis in response Ellis, saw your post on CFC. Why don't you reinstate our log on so Nick, W2F, OZ and I can respond Hi Vinny and thanks for telling me. I'm 77 years old now and I don't have the time or inclination to have stupid dog fights with those guys. They need to be spending their time designing a way to beat fixed cards because that is what the name of the game is these days. I saw your Vinsap deal. Those guys should be helping you with it. You can't win today only knowing what I was teaching 5 years ago. The game is always evolving. We have to evolve with it. We have evolved Ellis...more than you know Those guys have my ph # and email if they want to contact me. But I can't have them on my forum taking pot shots at me - not good for business. Oz should be ashamed of himself. WHY...For telling the truth and trying to prevent people being scammed? They should be asking (telling) Keith to reinstate me. Then we could fight it out at BTC if need be. As is, Keith is going right down the tubes. But I simply don't see what we have to fight about. We are all on the same side. You picked this fight Ellis with your constant trashing of BTC and and our players and I returned in kind and please note that none of us were banned from CFC for trashing you but for pointing out probs with your systems. We were banned for trying to help but you couldn't see past your 160 IQ and your giant ego. In effect, you banned your BEST players and left yourself with "YES" men...the dregs of the Baccarat world...That will work out a real treat. You seem prepared to let Dean take the fall for banning all the guys, but it's your Forum...Who made him God? BTW: While we are on the subject of Dean...in the interests of harmonious Forum relations...a bit of advice...You might mention that if he wishes to continue with his posting of half naked pics of himself all over the internet...He really needs to work out more. As for BTC going down the tubes...I don't know where you are getting your information but BTC is going great guns...Keith has instituted some really good ideas ...one being Strategic Baccarat...which may prove to be the best Baccarat Practice tool ever devised. He is listening to the players and meeting our requests and we can't ask more than that. BTW: That would be the same Keith that you claim has never had a winning Baccarat session in his life and he absolutely smashed it at the recent crawl ? Also...Keith showed admirable restraint for a long time while you were sniping at him and refused to retaliate in kind which says a lot about him...me though ...not so much...LOL You have my permission to post this @ BTC if you want. I can't. Ellis Just one more thing Ellis...a challenge... You devise a Flat Betting system that averages over 60%HR and I'll beat it by 5% and allow you to post it on CFC for free. Why not?...You are the one with the 160 IQ...40 years of Baccarat experience...All the advantages are with you...You have nothing to lose. Also...I am so confident in ct's rapidly improving Baccarat skills since he left CFC that I will stake him in a head to head challenge with you at $500 minimum table stakes. That should be worth the price of admission...The rumble in Vegas...CFC v BTC...No hard feelings...nothing to lose either way...What say you Ellis...Are you up for it?...should be fun and a way to mend fences. Hmm...I suppose that I should have run this by ct first...Oh well, ct...You know what I always say..."You can't help bad luck" BTW ct: If you lose my money...I know where you live...LOL This could be really entertaining...One of my best ideas ever Oz Just one final comment Ellis...To my knowledge... I repeat...To my knowledge, every player who left CFC to come here for whatever reasons is now winning at the tables and none are using Negative Progression Systems.

This is without a doubt the best Baccarat learning tool possible...real shoes from real casinos from all over the world...with more being uploaded every day. No Random Generated Bullshit. (those that claim that there is no difference... know shit about Baccarat...There is a difference) You can play hand by hand at your own speed and the results are there on your own personal Tote Board. It is exactly like playing in a REAL casino or a Live Dealer Online Casino. What I wouldn't have given for Strategic Baccarat to have been available when I started out. Freaking Brilliant concept. Also...I hear talk in the wings that in the near future...the same concept will be applied for Roulette and Roulette players will have the option of playing real roulette shoes. This is great stuff. Keith is seeking the input of all the BTC members to improve Strategic Baccarat and that can't be a bad thing. Thanks Keith for all the time and effort that you are putting in to get this right... Muchas Gracias...Bloody Hell...Where did that come from?...musta been hanging around Carlos too long... err...I was kidding about hanging out with Carlos...that's not ever going to happen

The vid keeps disappearing on my PC...DAMMIT! Finally got to see the vid...Great stuff...Strategic Baccarat alone will save players heaps and accelerate the learning curve for Newbies exponentially. Brilliant...absolutelyfreakingbrilliant...

Hmm...Now that I think about it...My laptop has only just recovered from my last coffee spitting effort...a bucket of vomit might be the end of it...

If it's only the top half...I have a fair idea where Carlos is... Bad Oz...

You just know that I'm going to ask you to send me the link...

Does he do the Kim Kardashian pout?

The "man's" vision is to try and scam you. He will suck up to you and feed you false promises and kick you straight off his Forum if you dare to question him. (after he gets his greedy paws on your money) What you don't seem to grasp JMoney as that several BTC members (good people...decent people) were in fact scammed by Ellis...They paid for a product that was delivered 2 years late and was not what was promised and anyone who dared to question or complain was simply booted off the CFC Forum. By the time people realised that "The Final Word" was effectively 20 odd pages of old lunch wrappers with a few notes and rehashed systems that are mostly available here on BTC...it was all too late because not one of the many dissatisfied customers who joined CFC and paid for their systems has ever received a refund. So tell me young Jordan why you don't think they have the right to criticise...unlike you, they bought and paid $1250 + for that right. I suspect that if you had been ripped off in a similar fashion that you too would be more than a little pissed off. While on the subject...here is a breakdown of how the CFC scammers operate... Ellis: Makes false promises and keeps designing new unbeatable systems convinced that the casinos keep changing the cards to beat his systems...but after 40 years of Baccarat is still playing reds and greens Dean: Runs the site and his job is to take the money and watch carefully for any signs of dissent and remove both offending posts and poster. Turns up at CFC seminars looking like a homeless waif hoping to scrounge a spare bunk with other attendees...Ellis's systems obviously aren't helping his financial situation much. Carlos: The much lauded so called "Independent Tester" (another lie) who has been following Ellis like a bad smell for untold years and verifies Ellis's ridiculous claims while at the same time scrounging for information from the top players on BTC while admitting that the systems he tests are not working (I still have his emails) There you have it...The Trifecta of "LOSERS"...but not forgetting little "Maxie"...Ellis's new lapdog, who rolls over hoping that "Uncle Ellis" will give his tummy a scratch but still has to check every day to see if his balls have finally dropped.

The rumble in the jungle aka: Baccarat table. lol A good sign of a healthy forum is spirited debates. Anyone can go to any thread here and view differing opinions on the game. It is then when you can sift through the debate and drum up with a good answer to whatever the debate was. Unfortunately for CFC, there is no spirited debates. Anyone that throws up a controversial thread or reply, it quickly gets removed and the person who authored the thread/question is whacked, never to be heard from again. I just don't get it. You are right OZ, it is fun to look at CFC but I can't get into the private forum. I am down for the rumble though.

I'm just as pissed off as you CT. I know I take the piss out of JMoney/Jordan but he basically seems like a decent guy albeit with maybe a few Kangaroos asleep in the top paddock. Ellis will always be Ellis...He is what he is...a snake-oil salesman come scammer who will say or do whatever it takes (NO lie is too big) to rip off the unwary. We recognise it...we deal with it by trying to warn people. Max, however, is another matter. It's pretty obvious from his posts on CFC that he knows sweet F***k all about Baccarat...not all that bright and along with Carlos suffers from a pathetically desperate need for some sort of acknowledgement from "The Great Man"...whether it be a pat on the head or the occasional spare pare of Ellis's used undies thrown his way. He even has his own "PET" name for Ellis..."Uncle Ellis"..."UNCLEFREAKINGELLIS"...FFS!!!...That is beyond childish...beyond pathetic...Seriously!...Who does that shit? But I digress...Like I said...Ellis is what he is...but it takes a really special lower than a snake's dick scumbag to assist with the scamming of people that are maybe a little gullible...too trusting perhaps...maybe even not that bright. It's wrong on so many levels. Max knows that the mechanical systems don't work... He knows that all the top players have been banned from CFC for daring to question Ellis He knows that members are never given a refund on membership despite being banned He knows that all posts that ask awkward questions are deleted as soon as detected He knows that what Ellis says on his Public Forum is different to what is going on in the Private Forum He knows all this, but it doesn't matter a shit to him as long as he can score Carlos's leftovers. He claims to wear our condemnation as a "Badge of Honour"..."Hey Uncle Ellis...The BTC lot are Criticising me...They must be jealous...Have I been a good little Maximillion...Have I uncle Ellis...Have I"?... FFS! I know you will be reading this Max...and my message to you before you follow Ellis over the cliff with the other NP Lemmings... You wish you could be one-tenth of the player that CT is and CT as a player... shits all over Ellis. Also Max...I'm coming to the US shortly...How about you put your money where your mouth is. We all meet up...The best of BTC...Way2fast...ct70...Kevin...Vinny...myself...(bloody hell...I could throw in another dozen or more) against the best of CFC...only prob is that you might have to stake Ellis because I'll be s*****d up the arse before I'll travel that far to play reds and greens. 40 years of Baccarat and still playing reds and greens is beyond embarrassing... Your call Max... or it can be my call if you like Max...I have your number...no kidding...LOL

I do hope Ellis doesn't tire of CFC...I like to read it for comic relief...kinda like "stress relief" This comment was classic Ellis while trying to extricate $1K from JMoney ... This after Jordan/JMoney made an 8 unit bet with his score at -30...LOL Hmm, not bad at all Jordan! Your betting is a little wild but at least you are not afraid to bet. And you learned your forum navigation quickly. You are a smart guy. Apparently, Ellis's 160 IQ didn't pick up on two things... 1) Jordan was only playing with "Play Money" (which is why he wasn't afraid to bet) 2) Ellis is never going to get his greedy grasping hands on $1K of Jordan's money because Jordan isn't really interested in CFC or even BTC for that matter but is trying to drum up subscribers to his own Blog...LOL Tell me again Ellis how that 160 IQ is working for you...

As true to everyone's word, none of the questions the guy asked were answered. I am assuming that since his/her post was deleted the account was probably deleted as well. Members of that forum should start asking themselves why he wouldn't address the questions.

The best question to ask...LOL Continuously bragging about turning out 3 millionaires except none of them play/played his Negative Progression Mechanical Systems and yet he still plays Reds and Greens...LOL Norm managed to go from $25 units to a $2 million plus Bankroll in two years while Ellis is still fart arsing about playing $25 units after 40 YEARS and still telling the same old stories about never having had a losing day despite the number of witnesses to the contrary. As for Max...he has joined Carlos in vying for the title of "chief arselicker"... I'm guessing his head most likely looks like he dunked it in a vat of hot chocolate fudge. As far as I am concerned...if you promote a scammer in his scams...you are no better yourself.

Brian, I don't know if it is a question of who is better. I just went on to CFC and that post from the Zin guy was deleted and true to form, Ellis didn't have the fortitude to address the guy's concerns. I am a curious guy by nature. I waded through the website and found every concern the guy had from the information he listed. Instead of Ellis addressing the concerns and frustrations from Zin and Mron from that forum, he starts bashing BTC, and specific systems (Like Mine). For the record, I have played FTS and VIn-SAP all over the country like PA, NJ, CA and LV and I have done well everywhere. I don't really care about them bashing us. Hell, we bash them as well too. The one thing that everyone needs to take into account is the fact that the upper level players here are playing a variation of Ellis' template. I will tell you this, I have played with all of the top players here with the exception of OZ. EVERY rock-star here put the blood sweat and tears and worked out the flaws to Ellis's systems. Ellis stated that he taught me, W2F and Kevin. He didn't teach crap. Most of the time that I was a member here when Ellis was here, we went round and round. All of the seasoned veterans here can and have the right to moan about Ellis. Ellis is a system seller who just wants everyone's money because he can't win it at the casino. I say have Ellis go to Caesar's in LV and play (We all know has allegedly never lost there). I will give him a few thousand to play with and let's see how he does. After he loses, I will charge him $1k and teach him Vin-SAP and FTS. I am so impressed with his +70 shoe that Ellis posted. I fell for all that in the beginning. Then I realized that Ellis already knows what the shoe did, saw the bias staring at him in the face and decided to fill in a 3,4, 5 up as you win progression. I am so glad he played JMoney's shoe. Both guys played with fake money and bragged about how much fake money they won. Extremely impressive. The biggest key for everyone to look at is the money. This is Keith's forum and part of his income comes from proceeds he receives here. This is a labor intense project he has taken on. As far and me, W2F, Kevin, OZ and CT, we don't get paid a dime. We do this to help Keith and to pay it forward to everyone who wants to learn how to play this game. Everyone's game is slightly different from one another but no one criticizes.

Wow CT, I don't think I ever saw you this mad.

Oh yes Max, how can I forget to mention the most important thing. If what you are using is everything you learned from Ellis's systems, then why is it that Ellis is still playing reds and greens? CT70

Hey Max, I read your post on CFC today and I had to refrain from responding to you on that forum since Dean (Ellis' partner deletes anything that is detrimental to the site and you would have not gotten my message. You're a legend in your own mind. THAT being said, I think you're full of shit and you have your head so far up Ellis' ass just like Carlos and Ed Gil, that you're starting to hallucinate. Those 2 guys asked all the right questions. Stop defending Ellis and his scams. You're just as guilty as he is for defending him. You may be playing black and purple, but if you are following Ellis's systems and his crazy progressions, then you're probably betting 5 high, and it's only a matter of time before you lose 20 units in row. You might be able to fool newbies with what you said but you can't fool me. I'm a master of the game. CT70

I saw this on the forum that cannot be named. I would have replied to it there but the owner deletes anything that's detrimental to helping them scam new players. So I will reply here. It's by Maxamillion who is also a member on this forum. Maxamillion Participant Wow Wow Wow and Wow …….. I have only read a few post where people are losing then corrected because they are using the wrong system .And most people such as myself want to be discrete as to how much they are winning when the time comes ……. (You don’t do my taxes ..). I have made enough to be very comfortable .. That’s all I’m going to say . As for the Forum and systems . Wasn’t it stated that it will be a work in progress , with updates as needed to the systems . And New systems to be Explored ….. So for the small price for those new systems that make a killing at the tables before the casinos figure out how to beat them is well worth it to me . After all nothing is free for ever . A price has to be paid somewhere . Ellis is putting time and time into answering most if not all questions by everyone . So the small price for all that on the new systems , ( times 10 profit for me ) to be played at the tables is more than worth it . So when you get to those chips that are above black and purple and walk away with more than you put down to start with . … Which will happen faster than you realize . You will sit back and laugh your ASS off , ( which is what i do ) . At how easy it really is to make money on the game and pay the small price for the updates and Newer systems that are being developed … Don’t mean to insult anyone or offend anyone by this post . And if it doe’s . You have to look into the mirror and ask yourself Why . ………… What am i doing wrong with all this info on this web sight for a cheep price and expect much more in return ………Remember that saying that went like this …… CASH … GRASS … or ASS . I’ll pay the cash ………… Later everyone …….. Max………………..

Yep...sure did...don't think he'll get the answers he wants but I'm betting that he will now get the answers that he expects...(if he gets any answers) Ellis's reputation is getting trashed with each passing day.

How do you get insulted on this forum? My man, there is a huge difference between insults and tough love. The difference between us and CFC is if there is a bad idea, we call you out on it. By all means, keep going with that progression.