The F2 and F3 thing again

[MVSeahog]

Giuys,

I'm sorry to have to post this, but it's just driving me nuts.

Just when I think I actually understand what everyone means when switching to F2 or F3 while running "Maverick", I read a message that completely goes opposite to what I thought I understood about F2/F3.

With that said, I'll ask out here in the open to have someone write down exactly what each is and how to play it.

I had originally thought it was a 2 or 3 set wager on one side. Then I thought it was a 2/3 chase on a side with a predominate pattern. Then I saw where it simply jumped on the last side with a 2 or 3. Do runs of 4+ come into play when deciding the F2/F2 side to play?

So, my poor brain is slowly cooking itself while I struggle to make a coherent plan using F2/F3 in conjunction with Mreteuya's Maverick play. I know it's incredibly simple but I keep seeing conflicting messages about it and I believe that's what's making this more difficult than need be!

MVS (in an F3 level fog of some type)

[ECD]

Lets discuss the F2 system rules:

F2 means Follow the 2. You "follow" under every 2 in a row. You wait for the first 2

in a row and bet under it staying on that side until there is a 2 on the other side.

Then you follow that 2. The only other rule is that once you switch sides you must

stay on the new side for at least 3 plays to avoid losing to the TTs.

It likes streak and is on every straight run either from the first play or the third play.

It likes ZZ runs because it wins every other bet. It's one of the very few systems that

beats straight, ZZ and TT runs. It is also one of the few systems that likes both

sporadic 1's and ZZs.

It loses to a 2 on the other side followed by a 3. But if you are getting a lot of 2,3s

you can change the rule to, "if you lose the first bet on the new side you switch right back.

It makes a good match with RD1 because RD 1 hates ALL 1's while F2 loves all 1's. Perfect.

F3 is the same thing except you Follow the 3 and you don't worry about a min of 3 bets on

a new side. You lose to a 3 on the wrong side but again if you lose the first bet on the new

side you have the option of switching right back avoid losing to the 3,3s

If 2's are high, you play F3. IF 3's are high, you play F2. If both are Hi, you play OTB4L.

Now, looking at Mark's RD1F23 system, think about this:

RD1 ALWAYS loses 2 bets to a confirmed 1 and only a confirmed 1

That confirmed 1 can ONLY be either a sporadic 1 OR the beginning of a ZZ.

F2 or 3 LOVES BOTH Sporadic 1's or ZZ 1's. Therefore, why not switch to F2

or 3 immediately after 2 RD1 lost bets???????

Now you are fine with Sporadic (single) 1's ZZ (multiple 1's) and 212s.

What else is there??????

AND you completely avoid the RD1 losing pattern of 2112.

Choosing correctly betwenn F2 and F3 will usually avoid THEIR losing patterns.

Think about it!

Mark?

[ECD]

The way I see it is when you switch from RD1 to F2 or 3 you make your first F2,3 bet

on the side that had the most recent 2 or more. Betting U1D2, if its a sporadic 1 you

win your 3 bet. If its a ZZ you win your 4 bet.

Your losing pattern is the old 3113 - but you stop betting after 4 losses in a row -

So you'd lose your 2 RD1 bets, then your first 2 F2 bets. Then stop, then wait for an

RD1 win to restart. How's THAT?

[Bquiffie]

Hi Ellis, this is Alfred – from North Carolina. You’re a genius. When will you stop showing us how to make easy money in the casino? It keeps getting better and better. This is why I love YOU and this forum. I will post about my trip to Atlantic City in a few days. Look in the Mreteuya's Maverick Play threads. Mark has caused a major problem for the casinos. Many thanks to you Ellis, Mark, PapaJoe and all the senior members.

[John12345]

F2 means Follow the 2. You "follow" under every 2 in a row. You wait for the first 2

in a row and bet under it staying on that side until there is a 2 on the other side.

Then you follow that 2. The only other rule is that once you switch sides you must

stay on the new side for at least 3 plays to avoid losing to the TTs.

I have two questions questions. Lets say that the Player side had the most recent run of 2 but banker was the last decision. Banker shoes up again when i bet player. Since banker now has 2, do I move to banker even though I did not make a min of 3 bets? you said that the rule is that you switch sides and you stay on that side for 3 plays. Is this rule not in play for when you first start F2? That is my first question and it happened to me last night and I wasn't sure what to do.

Second, What if the last 2 in a row was 10-20 decisions back? Would it be smart to look at the P/B count and bet with the side that had the higher count or does it just make more sense to go with the side that had the last 2 in a row even though it was awhile back?

[Mreteuya]

Revision Pending - for more info email me at mark808mark@gmail.com

Edited July 14, 2010 by Mreteuya

[zebra]

Hi Guys

I have been away for a while, but still following the posts.

I think what we all need (at least what I need)

is a quick restatement of Mark's rules with the addition

of Ellis' F2 clarification all in one place, with maybe a

sample shoe to accompany it. Thanks to all of you who

have been paving the road.

Paul

[MVSeahog]

Lets discuss the F2 system rules:

Thanks. I think that really cleared up some nagging questions I had about it.

It is printed out and pasted to the inside cabinet wall so I can stare at it from time to time.

MVS

[Probac]

Lets discuss the F2 system rules:

F2 means Follow the 2. You "follow" under every 2 in a row. You wait for the first 2

in a row and bet under it staying on that side until there is a 2 on the other side.

Then you follow that 2. The only other rule is that once you switch sides you must

stay on the new side for at least 3 plays to avoid losing to the TTs.

It likes streak and is on every straight run either from the first play or the third play.

It likes ZZ runs because it wins every other bet. It's one of the very few systems that

beats straight, ZZ and TT runs. It is also one of the few systems that likes both

sporadic 1's and ZZs.

It loses to a 2 on the other side followed by a 3. But if you are getting a lot of 2,3s

you can change the rule to, "if you lose the first bet on the new side you switch right back.

It makes a good match with RD1 because RD 1 hates ALL 1's while F2 loves all 1's. Perfect.

F3 is the same thing except you Follow the 3 and you don't worry about a min of 3 bets on

a new side. You lose to a 3 on the wrong side but again if you lose the first bet on the new

side you have the option of switching right back avoid losing to the 3,3s

If 2's are high, you play F3. IF 3's are high, you play F2. If both are Hi, you play OTB4L.

Now, looking at Mark's RD1F23 system, think about this:

RD1 ALWAYS loses 2 bets to a confirmed 1 and only a confirmed 1

That confirmed 1 can ONLY be either a sporadic 1 OR the beginning of a ZZ.

F2 or 3 LOVES BOTH Sporadic 1's or ZZ 1's. Therefore, why not switch to F2

or 3 immediately after 2 RD1 lost bets???????

Now you are fine with Sporadic (single) 1's ZZ (multiple 1's) and 212s.

What else is there??????

AND you completely avoid the RD1 losing pattern of 2112.

Choosing correctly betwenn F2 and F3 will usually avoid THEIR losing patterns.

Think about it!

Mark?

Ellis, thanks for the expose.

Just 3 clarifications:

(1) Rd1 loses 3 bets (not 2 bets) to sporadic 1s due to the 1st rule of rd1. No?

(2) if we are already playing F2 on say P side, and there is an unconfirmed 2 on the B side should we switch to the B side?

illustration: pp b(to bet under p for F2) pbp bb(?) (unconfirmed 2 under b, should next bet be p or b?)

(3) if we are on f2 and an unconfirmed 3 comes along on the other side should we switch to F3?

illustration: pp b (to bet under P playing F2) pbp bbb(?) (here's an unconfirmed 3 under ,

So for the next bet: should we:

(a) switch to betting b under F3 or

( stay with F2 but bet under b, or

© stay with F2 and continue betting under p?

Thanks in advance.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Probac

[kachatz1]

OK, so I think like MVS I am now as confused as ever about this ( or at least as confused as he seemed early in the day today).

I have an idea which may help everyone, and perhaps The Maverick himself would help us all out in a clear, easy to understand fashion.

Listed below are 80 Player, Banker or Tie outcomes. Pretty much a typical ( if there is such a thing) shoe...

Maverick, could you please SHOW US ALL EXACTLY HOW YOU WOULD HAVE PLAYED THIS SHOE, by combining "the rules" of the RD1,F2 and F3 methods with a simple Money Management progression of your choosing ? SAP or not, up to you...

My hope is that this will help everyone understand each and every decision made and WHY/WHEN TO SWITCH between the various systems ( RD1, F2 and F3 ), and how the MM progression fits in.

Here are the 80 outcomes, starting with the first hand dealt.

1) P

2) B

3) B

4) P

5) T

6) B

7) P

8) T

9) B

10) B

11) B

12) P

13) P

14) B

15) P

16) B

17) P

18) B

19) B

20) B

21) B

22) B

23) P

24) B

25) P

26) P

27) T

28) B

29) B

30) P

31) P

32) P

33) B

34) P

35) P

36) B

37) B

38) P

39) B

40) P

41) P

42) P

43) P

44) B

45) B

46) T

47) B

48) P

49) P

50) P

51) B

52) B

53) P

54) B

55) T

56) P

57) T

58) B

59) B

60) P

61) B

62) P

63) P

64) P

65) B

66) B

67) P

68) P

69) T

70) B

71) P

72) B

73) B

74) B

75) B

76) P

77) B

78) P

79) P

80) B

Thanks Mr. M, and I know there are many, many of us on this Forum that would like to have your feedback on just how you would have played this shoe.

The more comments/advice/instruction the better!

Regards,

kachatz1

[ECD]

First Kach, several prominent members have suggested new guys take the time to read the entire forum.

This will catch you up on some basics.

We don't record ties because we don't bet ties. Worst bet in the casino.

Learn our short cut method to post shoes. It saves time transcribing.

Your shoe should be posted this way:

P 121113211115

P1122321112112

P1221141121

That way I can transcribe it to a score card in seconds. As is it took 2

of us over an hour and I'm still not sure I got it right.

Next, you are putting the cart before the horse.

It is a waste of time to play a system to any shoe you find. That's backwards.

You first study the table to see if its biased in any way.

Then you note if the shoe at hand is repeating that bias. It usually is.

Then you determine the best system to beat the bias at hand. This means you

must know the likes and dislikes of each of our systems.

The FIRST thing I ALWAYS look at is P/B disparity because it is the quickest thing

to observe. I'm looking for LOW disparity. A low PB disparity shoe is the easiest

and surest to beat by simply net betting Bank vs Player as we do in the free systems.

U1D2 M2 eats up a lot of disparity so that is how I would bet.

At play 6 your shoe has 0 disparity. I would simply net bet P vs B U1D2 M2.

Your shoe is a very short shoe with only 56 plays not counting ties.

Normal is 72 plays for the usual 8 deck shoe.

Yet it scores +31 because you took the time to determine the best system.

Nobody else does that but nobody else wins.

RD1 scores 17 and F2 scores 8 because they are good but not the BEST

system to play for the shoe at hand.

I'll get your shoe posted played all 3 ways.

When you see the shoes, Note that I entered the column disparity under

each col. I ALWAYS do this. Your highest col disparity was 7 vs 13. But

note how U1D2 M2 evens it out. That is why it is my favorite betting option.

You could have made your 31 units with a buy in of only 4 units. Your

highest bet was 5.

At the bottom of the net bet shoe I calculated your Player Advantage.

It was 36%. Many players play all their lives and NEVER hit a PA

that high. That is because they have no idea how to select the right system.

Then they have no idea how to net bet.

Card Counters try to achieve a 0.5% PA. That sucks compared to us.

I'll let Mark play it his way and we'll see.

[kachatz1]

Thanks, Ellis

I have read many, many of the threads and forum topics all the way through to get a better grasp of the strategies employed. Great stuff, and I am using some of it already but I just want to solidfy my grasp of using several different methodologies within a shoe, rather than just one ( like just using RD1). Also, it was my hope that this would help others like me , especially those new to the Forum.

The 80 outcomes I posted were 38 Banker, 35 Player and 7 Ties ( total 80 outcomes, typical shoe..) I understand the ties don't get "played" but since they do occur I put them in there for reference. Not sure how you calculated only 56 "plays" other than TIE ?

I will digest your comments later today and look forward to seeing how this particular "shoe" is played by anyone who wants to take the time to explain their methods.

Thanks again for your help!

Kevin

[ECD]

These are from Ellis.

Ellis said he somehow read the plays wrong when he was transcribing them to BTC format. After checking Kach's original posting he noticed the shoe was 80 plays long. He said to tell ya'll he will correct the example (P/B net bet) and re post it shortly. The point remains the same, so meanwhile look at the examples he sent me and you will see what he is referring to.

PJ

Edited March 12, 2010 by ECD

[kachatz1]

Thanks, PJ and I will digest all this evening...

While I have played ( yes, and survived and mostly prospered ) Baccarat for more than 10 years, and played from Macau to Milwaukee, I am going to Vegas next week and am committed to playing the BTC way...

Kevin

[ECD]

Ok Kevin, sorry I transcribed it wrong. Never did THAT before but that's what happens when

you start at 3A.M. I fixed it and sent to PJ to post when he gets home. Then I'll add some notes.

[John12345]

Is there a thread anywhere here that explains how to transcribe the BTC way? I can't find one.

[ECD]

Here's the corrected shoe from Ellis.

Ok Kevin, sorry I transcribed it wrong. Never did THAT before but that's what happens when

you start at 3A.M. I fixed it and sent to PJ to post when he gets home. Then I'll add some notes.

PJ

[kachatz1]

Thanks and i will read all carefully as I want to be ready for Vegas next week...

Agree with John and have looked for best way to POST-A-SHOE the BTC way?

[ECD]

Click on the downloads tab and then universal baccarat. there is a blank scorecard you can download. When you have a shoe to post, just click on advanced options, then manage attachments, then a window will open where you can select the file (your scanned scorecard) and upload it. It will then automatically be included in your post.

We use 4 columns The first thing in each column is either B or P depending on what the first hand starts with. Then we just list the events (1, 2's 3's etc.) So B21234211112 would be BB P BB PPP BBBB PP B P B P BB. Each column except the last will add up to 20 hands. Here's a full example for the Corrected shoe Ellis just completed:

P121113211115

P11223122114

B332111111321

P11141121

Hope this helps.

PJ

[res]

Ellis

Sometimes you when you switched over you only went to 2 losses instead fo 3 losses? Here is some examples.

On #3 Kach F2

Why on column 1 hand 18 you did not lose 3 in a row and you went to B3 shouldn't that be P3? Then again in column 2 hand 32 you went to B$ instead of P4 there was not 3 losses again.

[John12345]

Click on the downloads tab and then universal baccarat. there is a blank scorecard you can download. When you have a shoe to post, just click on advanced options, then manage attachments, then a window will open where you can select the file (your scanned scorecard) and upload it. It will then automatically be included in your post.

We use 4 columns The first thing in each column is either B or P depending on what the first hand starts with. Then we just list the events (1, 2's 3's etc.) So B21234211112 would be BB P BB PPP BBBB PP B P B P BB. Each column except the last will add up to 20 hands. Here's a full example for the Corrected shoe Ellis just completed:

P121113211115

P11223122114

B332111111321

P11141121

Hope this helps.

PJ

Thanks for your help

[kachatz1]

PJ

Thanks for the posting info. I understand now how you "posted" the 73 plays , and ignored the 7 ties

Kevin

[killthehouse]

Hey res,

When you switch sides, you have to stay for a minimum of 3 bets. At hand 18 and 32, we were already playing F2 for more than 3 bets thus the moment a 2 appear on the opposite we jump to the that side.

F2 I'm pretty clear. Just that F3 confuses me at certain plays.

Regards,

kill

[ECD]

F2 means Follow the 2. You "follow" under every 2 in a row. You wait for the first 2 in a row and bet under it staying on that side until there is a 2 on the other side. Then you follow that 2. The only other rule is that once you switch sides you must stay on the new side for at least 3 plays to avoid losing to the TTs.

I've always played like res, that is, once you switch sides you allow 3 consecutive losses. BUT the rule says allow 3 plays. There's a big difference.

The example below assumes that we were playing F2 on the Banker side, and have just encountered a 2 on the other side (the first 2 plays) and switched to Player side.

Ignore the hand numbers, this could be the middle of a shoe or where ever.

Ellis? What's the verdict?

PJ

Edited March 13, 2010 by ECD

[MVSeahog]

Wow.

When I first asked the question I just assumed I would be the only one asking about it. Never realized it would generate so much "interest" from the troops!!

This is good. We can get this cleared up for once and for all!

MVS