NOR Seminar Success

[Action Mike]

I attended the Las Vegas seminar this weekend and was very pleased. I can think of several minor points made by Ellis that each one of which are worth more than the cost of my entire trip. Coincidentally, I returned home this morning at 6:30 AM and as I had a few hours to kill before returning my rental car I proceeded to visit our local spot, the Seminole Hard Rock. I played 3 shoes, including one that was on fresh cards. With the fresh cards I immediately picked up on a pattern of OTB4L, which I had not previously recognized before this weekend. I started betting on the 5th hand, and before I got to 50 hands, I left the shoe at +40 and proceeded directly to the cage, followed by the door. Looking at my previous play history, the pattern that came out would have either killed me completely or left me in a very significant negative position since I play a lot more aggressive than the NOR guidelines for -8 stoploss. Thanks again Ellis and Keith!

[kachatz1]

I attended the Las Vegas seminar this weekend and was very pleased. I can think of several minor points made by Ellis that each one of which are worth more than the cost of my entire trip. Coincidentally, I returned home this morning at 6:30 AM and as I had a few hours to kill before returning my rental car I proceeded to visit our local spot, the Seminole Hard Rock. I played 3 shoes, including one that was on fresh cards. With the fresh cards I immediately picked up on a pattern of OTB4L, which I had not previously recognized before this weekend. I started betting on the 5th hand, and before I got to 50 hands, I left the shoe at +40 and proceeded directly to the cage, followed by the door. Looking at my previous play history, the pattern that came out would have either killed me completely or left me in a very significant negative position since I play a lot more aggressive than the NOR guidelines for -8 stoploss. Thanks again Ellis and Keith!

Just what the doctor ordered.

Patient comes in half -delusional, not sure whether he/she is coming or going...Dr. Ellis immediately recognizes the symptoms of "win dehydration", recommends a few diet changes, prescribes some NOR medication, and presto-chango, the patient is good as new!

My kind of medicine...

[joeystyle]

I attended the Las Vegas seminar this weekend and was very pleased. I can think of several minor points made by Ellis that each one of which are worth more than the cost of my entire trip. Coincidentally, I returned home this morning at 6:30 AM and as I had a few hours to kill before returning my rental car I proceeded to visit our local spot, the Seminole Hard Rock. I played 3 shoes, including one that was on fresh cards. With the fresh cards I immediately picked up on a pattern of OTB4L, which I had not previously recognized before this weekend. I started betting on the 5th hand, and before I got to 50 hands, I left the shoe at +40 and proceeded directly to the cage, followed by the door. Looking at my previous play history, the pattern that came out would have either killed me completely or left me in a very significant negative position since I play a lot more aggressive than the NOR guidelines for -8 stoploss. Thanks again Ellis and Keith!

It's makes me feel so sky high to see such positive comments being posted by attendees of the Vegas Seminar. I encourage others who attended to do like wise. By doing so we all become better players. I would love to learn your philosophy on how you attack the BAC tables aggressively using NOR, Mike. Congratulations!

Ciao

Joey

[zebra]

(Originally posted in a separate thread - it belongs in this thread)

The NOR seminar in Vegas this weekend was a huge success. There were more

than 50 students in attendance with bac experience ranging from seasoned vets

to rookies who never played the game. All aspects of the NOR manual were

covered by Ellis who did his usual excellent job. Following the Sat. session we

went to Luxor to play a shoe with many of the students gathered around. We

could not have been faced with a more challenging shoe. After an opening 2,

there was a straight run of 7, immediately followed by a zig-zag run of 7, and

then immediatly followed by a run of 4 twos (8 plays). After being down 4

early, we rallied to pull out a +5. Ellis said such a combination of events was

"impossible". It truly showed the power of NOR. It was great meeting all the

new guys (and gal). I hope you all become contributing members here at BTC.

Paul

[Action Mike]

It's makes me feel so sky high to see such positive comments being posted by attendees of the Vegas Seminar. I encourage others who attended to do like wise. By doing so we all become better players. I would love to learn your philosophy on how you attack the BAC tables aggressively using NOR, Mike. Congratulations!

Ciao

Joey

In my betting progression I will go up 1 on loss and down 1 on win. After I have 2 winning 1 unit bets in a row, I go up 1 on each win and start back at 1 on the next loss. I am still experimenting with stop loss. Right now I don't have one and it makes for some real heartburn from time to time, but I use a 100 unit bankroll to cover it and working the NOR systems has helped me limit my loss progressions significantly.

[Guest]

I attended the Las Vegas seminar this weekend and was very pleased. I can think of several minor points made by Ellis that each one of which are worth more than the cost of my entire trip. Coincidentally, I returned home this morning at 6:30 AM and as I had a few hours to kill before returning my rental car I proceeded to visit our local spot, the Seminole Hard Rock. I played 3 shoes, including one that was on fresh cards. With the fresh cards I immediately picked up on a pattern of OTB4L, which I had not previously recognized before this weekend. I started betting on the 5th hand, and before I got to 50 hands, I left the shoe at +40 and proceeded directly to the cage, followed by the door. Looking at my previous play history, the pattern that came out would have either killed me completely or left me in a very significant negative position since I play a lot more aggressive than the NOR guidelines for -8 stoploss. Thanks again Ellis and Keith!

Like I said in the seminar, nobody but us beats OTB4L shoes. They just don't know how. That is why casinos present so many of them. We LOVE the darn things!

[Guest]

The seminar was so well received what with standing ovations and all that we are already talking about a March seminar in Atlantic City. BTW, The Sunday Bac/BJ seminar went just as well and was very well attended.

BTW, I've learned over the years that a seminar W/O a live casino demonstration just doesn't cut it. There are a lot of big mouths out there and a few of them have even tried casino demonstrations. Besides me, none were ever successful. I've done hundreds of the darn things successfully. It sort of separates the men from the boys.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Guest

[witchygal]

(Originally posted in a separate thread - it belongs in this thread)

The NOR seminar in Vegas this weekend was a huge success. There were more

than 50 students in attendance with bac experience ranging from seasoned vets

to rookies who never played the game. All aspects of the NOR manual were

covered by Ellis who did his usual excellent job. Following the Sat. session we

went to Luxor to play a shoe with many of the students gathered around. We

could not have been faced with a more challenging shoe. After an opening 2,

there was a straight run of 7, immediately followed by a zig-zag run of 7, and

then immediatly followed by a run of 4 twos (8 plays). After being down 4

early, we rallied to pull out a +5. Ellis said such a combination of events was

"impossible". It truly showed the power of NOR. It was great meeting all the

new guys (and gal). I hope you all become contributing members here at BTC.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Is it possible to post the shoe here or the private forum? I would like to have a go at it for practice purpose.

[Guest]

Hi Paul,

Is it possible to post the shoe here or the private forum? I would like to have a go at it for practice purpose.

I'm sure somebody has more of it but from memory it started this way:

P271111122221

If I had it to do over again I should have stuck with OTB4L all the way. I don't know what possessed me to get off of OTB4L. A little tired I guess, after doing the seminar all day. I'm not used to standing for 6 minutes let alone 6 hours.

We sorta back doored that shoe and did OK but I should have done a whole lot better.

I'm still very suspicious of that shoe. The random odds against it are astronomical. But if you were trying to design a shoe nobody could beat.......

The table was dead when we got there. Then 10 players sit down to play with 40 more watching from the isle. They pulled that shoe out of the shuffle machine. If you were the pit boss ........

That shoe started with 7 out of 8 Repeats, then 6 Opposites, then OROROROR0. Come on, give me a break! There is a limit to coincidence.

You should have seen the Pit Boss's face when all 10 of us beat it!

Then, at another casino which shall remain nameless, I literally Killed a BJ table playing head to head. I only lost ONE hand the whole first 2 deck shoe. Then they brought in a new dealer who we immediately caught red handed dealing seconds every hand. She would look at the top 2 cards and then deal me the worst one and herself the best one every single card dealt. She kept blatantly doing this even after she knew we had caught her. Jeez, if you are going to hire a mechanic, at least hire one with a brain.

All the credit for catching her goes to Keith. He could see exactly what she was doing from his angle standing in the isle. From the table angle I never saw a thing. Again, never play when you are not totally alert. And some people think casinos never cheat. Ha!

No, we didn't complain. We simply left that casino - for good!

Reminds me of the time we were playing team BJ in the Bahamas and all 8 teams won every shoe. I caught the dealer doing a fake shuffle. The cards end up exacly as they were before the shuffle.

So I said to the Pit Boss in a meek voice: "Your dealer is cheating!"

He says: "So what! You're cheating too and you cheat better than he does!" "Oh, OK, now at least we know where everybody stands."

Yep, they paid us. But no, they wouldn't give us a ride home! Ha, they just can't take a joke!

What a life!

Edited December 17, 2011 by Guest

[witchygal]

I'm sure somebody has more of it but from memory it started this way:

P271111122221

If I had it to do over again I should have stuck with OTB4L all the way. I don't know what possessed me to get off of OTB4L. A little tired I guess, after doing the seminar all day. I'm not used to standing for 6 minutes let alone 6 hours.

We sorta back doored that shoe and did OK but I should have done a whole lot better.

I'm still very suspicious of that shoe. The random odds against it are astronomical. But if you were trying to design a shoe nobody could beat.......

The table was dead when we got there. Then 10 players sit down to play with 40 more watching from the isle. They pulled that shoe out of the shuffle machine. If you were the pit boss ........

That shoe started with 7 out of 8 Repeats, then 6 Opposites, then OROROROR0. Come on, give me a break! There is a limit to coincidence.

You should have seen the Pit Boss's face when all 10 of us beat it!

Then, at another casino which shall remain nameless, I literally Killed a BJ table playing head to head. I only lost ONE hand the whole first 2 deck shoe. Then they brought in a new dealer who we immediately caught red handed dealing seconds every hand. She would look at the top 2 cards and then deal me the worst one and herself the best one every single card dealt. She kept blatantly doing this even after she knew we had caught her. Jeez, if you are going to hire a mechanic, at least hire one with a brain.

All the credit for catching her goes to Keith. He could see exactly what she was doing from his angle standing in the isle. From the table angle I never saw a thing. Again, never play when you are not totally alert. And some people think casinos never cheat. Ha!

No, we didn't complain. We simply left that casino - for good!

Reminds me of the time we were playing team BJ in the Bahamas and all 8 teams won every shoe. I caught the dealer doing a fake shuffle. The cards end up exacly as they were before the shuffle.

So I said to the Pit Boss in a meek voice: "Your dealer is cheating!"

He says: "So what! You're cheating too and you cheat better than he does!" "Oh, OK, now at least we know where everybody stands."

Yep, they paid us. But no, they wouldn't give us a ride home! Ha, they just can't take a joke!

What a life!

Thanks Ellis for posting the shoe. I noticed that my local casino has lots of similar shoe recently and it is hard to beat sometimes. The modes also changed too frequently.

[Guest]

Thanks Ellis for posting the shoe. I noticed that my local casino has lots of similar shoe recently and it is hard to beat sometimes. The modes also changed too frequently.

Witchy, check to see if your casino has switched to factory preshuffled cards. It's easy to tell. If new cards start in 8 single deck boxes, they are NOT preshuffled. If they start out in an 8 deck bundle they ARE factory preshuffled. Or you can simply ask. They must tell you.

We can beat factory preshuffled but we don't do as well. If it is factory preshuffled, complain. And get other players to complain. YOU are the customers. Casinos MUST listen to their customers, especially if the customers are organized.

That is how we got the casinos to drop the "must play every hand" rule. The players DO have a voice and can be a force to be reckoned with. Be nice but tell them what you want - standard cards, not factory preshuffled. It's bad enough to trust casinos but who in their right mind would trust a factory?

[ddbcinti]

Ellis,

With P2711111, I would have used the F series. Why did you choose OTB4L?

[Guest]

Ellis,

With P2711111, I would have used the F series. Why did you choose OTB4L?

Right, which was the same mistake I made. I started as soon as I saw the 2,2 which spells OTB4L. Should have stuck to my guns.

[witchygal]

Witchy, check to see if your casino has switched to factory preshuffled cards. It's easy to tell. If new cards start in 8 single deck boxes, they are NOT preshuffled. If they start out in an 8 deck bundle they ARE factory preshuffled. Or you can simply ask. They must tell you.

We can beat factory preshuffled but we don't do as well. If it is factory preshuffled, complain. And get other players to complain. YOU are the customers. Casinos MUST listen to their customers, especially if the customers are organized.

That is how we got the casinos to drop the "must play every hand" rule. The players DO have a voice and can be a force to be reckoned with. Be nice but tell them what you want - standard cards, not factory preshuffled. It's bad enough to trust casinos but who in their right mind would trust a factory?

Hi Ellis,

From what i found out from the pit bosses, my local casino RWS actually have a shuffle room where new cards are shuffled before they release it to the tables. Then at the tables they have yet another machine attached to shuffle the cards after a shoe is completed.

So a new shoe begins with a full 8 deck bundle in a clear plastic box which they take out from the machine at the table and then players can choose to cut the cards, then burn cards accordingly.

After a shoe is completed, they will keep the cards back into the machine by the side of the table and then the machine will bring up another 8 deck bundle in a clear plastic box for the next new shoe.

I noticed that sometimes after a blue deck, a red deck is used. However most of the time, the deck colors may be the same for 3 shoes (e.g 3 blue decks) then another color deck (red deck) will appear.

I dunno whether these affects the shoe results.

[Keith Smith]

Hi Ellis,

From what i found out from the pit bosses, my local casino RWS actually have a shuffle room where new cards are shuffled before they release it to the tables. Then at the tables they have yet another machine attached to shuffle the cards after a shoe is completed.

So a new shoe begins with a full 8 deck bundle in a clear plastic box which they take out from the machine at the table and then players can choose to cut the cards, then burn cards accordingly.

After a shoe is completed, they will keep the cards back into the machine by the side of the table and then the machine will bring up another 8 deck bundle in a clear plastic box for the next new shoe.

I noticed that sometimes after a blue deck, a red deck is used. However most of the time, the deck colors may be the same for 3 shoes (e.g 3 blue decks) then another color deck (red deck) will appear.

I dunno whether these affects the shoe results.

Seems to me the casino is trying to get the cards as close to random as they possibly can. If they can get them to the point then any bias is dissolved and you win by luck alone. Of course it is a hard task to accomplish with 8 decks started in sequential order. 7 to the 8th power number of shuffles. If they can get it close then every combinations of cards have an equal shot at appearing even all bank and all players.

Attached is the number of combinations of 52 cards just for fun.

KS

[witchygal]

That's why it is so hard to find bias tables and shoes now. Even when a shoe start off beautiful it wouldn't even last 10 hands and it will change again. How to play?

[Guest]

Seems to me the casino is trying to get the cards as close to random as they possibly can.

KS

Well, no, ha , after all that work. The LAST thing a casino wants is perfectly random cards. Random cards are too easy to beat and casinos know this. An U1D1 or even an U1D2 Fibonaci starting at 2 would kill them or even starting with 1,2. Starting at 2 it would take an 11 in a row to beat you. Starting at 1 it would take a 12 in a row, playing green as most Fibbers do.

Even a simple U1D1 W/O the Fib would kill them.

Since you can't have an 11 in a row in the last 10 hands of the shoe they only have about 62 chances per shoe to start an 11 in a row. With perfectly random cards you can figure on one 11 about every 100 shoes and a 12 about one every 200 shoes. By that time an U1D1 Fib player would have killed them.

The casino MUST have biased shoes to deter this kind of play. That is also how they set their table limits.

Question? Do they start with new cards every shoe (8 deck bundle) or do you only see these bundles when they open a table???

The first thing to do is verify that the cards are actually shuffled in house because preshuffled cards also come from the factory in 8 deck bundles.

If the casino, in fact, does it in house, I bet that they use a standard morning card prep procedure with a timed wash just like we've seen them do it a thousand times. Random would take days to complete.

I suspect the only difference is that the prep is done in a private room. Which is pretty smart when you have guys like me lurking around.

Therefore, I would be extremely interested in seeing if there is any consistency in the shoes produced from new bundles.

But first we need to get my question above answered and we need to confirm this in house stuff.

So far, I can't confirm that this is any different from normal casino procedure. But let's discuss this further once we have all the information.

Keith, think about it: A simple U1D1 virtually can't lose in perfectly random cards. That is how I beat the old Golden Nugget program to the tune of $50,000 about a thousand times. Remember the test John did worked out to a 32% PA. Hell, in perfectly radom cards you could just net bet P vs B U1D1. In a casino it doesn't work because of the biases. But purely random cards would be no different than playing a random generator.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Guest

[Keith Smith]

IS anyone reporting 10 and 11 in a rows in these shoes Ellis? I haven't seen any reports of any or seen any games posted with a 10.

If the bias is gone and they become unpredictable then they are random. Of course you should see an 11 in a row in x amount of hands but they can still be random and not see them.

If anything they are trying for choppy so maybe we should go with a FIB. Ron and I did it for a year in AC before they whack us. Aren't we missing the statistical normalcy for 1 in a rows in these games over long periods of time that seem to go to 2's and 3's and 4s etc?

[Guest]

IS anyone reporting 10 and 11 in a rows in these shoes Ellis? I haven't seen any reports of any or seen any games posted with a 10.

If the bias is gone and they become unpredictable then they are random. Of course you should see an 11 in a row in x amount of hands but they can still be random and not see them.

If anything they are trying for choppy so maybe we should go with a FIB. Ron and I did it for a year in AC before they whack us. Aren't we missing the statistical normalcy for 1 in a rows in these games over long periods of time that seem to go to 2's and 3's and 4s etc?

No, you are right! I can't even remember the last time I saw an 11. There is no doubt that casinos have figured out a way to get rid of straight runs. A.C. even more so. Maybe now is the time to strike. I'm thinking in terms of an U1D1 on opposites early in the morning against new cards in A.C. with $500 units. Now THERE might be an investment worth investing in. Hey, they left the door open.

Think about it. All we are doing, whether Bac or BJ, is taking advantage of casino orchestration. That is all we EVER do.

So OK, I just did a whole 72 play shoe simple U1D1 on opposites against 72 plays of the terrible twos because that gives you a shoe equal in opposites and repeats. A shoe actually favoring opposites will of course to a lot better.

Made 34 units or $17,000! I'm thinking investors could double there money in one shoe.

Do you happen to know any good Bac player that could play for us?

[Guest]

OK I just did another one with random 1's, 2s, 3s and 4s working out to a zero OR count total. +35 = $17,500.

My buy in would have needed to be $5500. Even after commission, I tripled my money.

A shoe could even favor repeats, just not too much.

Anybody interested?

[Guest]

I'm thinking all we would need is a $20,000 investment total. I could only play 2 shoes at a casino. The one they deal and the one in the machine. That eliminates the possibility of counter measures. Then we change casinos. One or 2 mornings would likely double everybody's money. Then, we get the hell out of Dodge! Even if they caught on all they could do is throw a super streaky at me. Great, I switch to repeats! Hey, it would be really neat getting barred again at my age! Brings back old memories!

Edited December 20, 2011 by Guest

[Guest]

Oh shit! Our teacher has gone stark raving mad - again!

[ECD]

Oh shit! Our teacher has gone stark raving mad - again!

As usual, there is some logic to that madness!!!!

[MVSeahog]

Hey! It sounds like a plan to me!

MVS

[ECD]

Hey! It sounds like a plan to me!

MVS

I'd consider going for 25% of the investment -- about equal to my winnings from 4 shoes played during the LV seminar weekend.