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Hey Ellis, I am working with SAP Count as I work to learn the NOR approach and want to know if SAP count overrides standard decisions from NOR OTR rules? I.e. if we are in mode 3 and the LC is indicated in "2 column" and we just lost 2 opposite bets in S40 to a 2 in a row, SAP tells me to make my bet OTR after I make a third attempt to a third loss playing opposite? Is this correct?

Gee, I hope I explained that correctly.

Does SAP help us to know what mode to be in?

Just trying to understand how these two indicators work together as rtge NOiR manual does not go into deth about SAP count.

Thanks,

CC

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Hey Ellis, I am working with SAP Count as I work to learn the NOR approach and want to know if SAP count

overrides standard decisions from NOR OTR rules?

The way I play the SAP count usually overrides the NOR decision. You must have a strong indication from the SAP count. If it is close

I might ignore it and stay with the system. This is something you get the feel for after a while.

Does SAP help us to know what mode to be in?

SAP actually replaces modes for me. You don't need to know what mode to play if the SAP count

is giving you LC and MC. I never worry about modes.

Hope this helps

Paul

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Thanks Paul,

I have over 800 shoes in my database old excel and programmed the SAP count last night in my spreadsheet that works automatically so I play the shoes at random very quickly, The result is identically displayed as in S40 manual with spaces between the counts. you still need to make the decision for P or B manually. The spreadsheet is still in development stage but should be finished soon.

CC

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The way I play the SAP count usually overrides the NOR decision. You must have a strong indication from the SAP count. If it is close

I might ignore it and stay with the system. This is something you get the feel for after a while.

SAP actually replaces modes for me. You don't need to know what mode to play if the SAP count

is giving you LC and MC. I never worry about modes.

Hope this helps

Paul

Hi Paul,

Can you give an example of how SAP helps to determine which mode to be in?

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Can you give an example of how SAP helps to determine which mode to be in?

Sorry Witchy - I think you misunderstood me. SAP does not help determine the mode - it

makes the modes unnecessary. Modes are used to determine when to go OTR and how

long to stay OTR. For me the SAP count and LC and MC determine those bets, so there

is no need to worry about modes. As Ellis has said, it sounds a lot more difficult than it is

when playing

Paul

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Sorry Witchy - I think you misunderstood me. SAP does not help determine the mode - it

makes the modes unnecessary. Modes are used to determine when to go OTR and how

long to stay OTR. For me the SAP count and LC and MC determine those bets, so there

is no need to worry about modes. As Ellis has said, it sounds a lot more difficult than it is

when playing

Paul

Hi, can you show an example?

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Sorry Witchy - I think you misunderstood me. SAP does not help determine the mode - it

makes the modes unnecessary. Modes are used to determine when to go OTR and how

long to stay OTR. For me the SAP count and LC and MC determine those bets, so there

is no need to worry about modes. As Ellis has said, it sounds a lot more difficult than it is

when playing

Paul

Hi Paul,

Yes what i mean is how to place the bets using SAP? For example if i am playing S40 and then encounter 1,2 lost and now i'm suppose to choose which mode to use, what i mean is perhaps i can refer to SAP to place the bet instead of having to choose between mode 2 or mode 3.

It would be great if you can post a live shoe using SAP to show us the bets decision.

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Let me give a simple example. Suppose you come upon a shoe and you

notice many 1's. This is a great S40 shoe. You start to play and after

a while your SAP count is 7-2-8-4. Now you have PBB. You won the

first B, lost the second. S40 is telling you to bet opposite for 2 units.

In other words, bet opposite and the 2 will stay a 2. But the SAP count

is telling you that 2's DO NOT remain 2's because 2's are LC. Also, 3's

(or 3+'s) are MC. So SAP is saying bet B (repeat) instead of opposite.

Notice that I never used the word "mode". Now as I said, this is a very

simple example. It is often not so easy to see what your play should be.

Experience and practice will help you make these interpretations. I have

been playing this way successfully pretty much since NOR made its

appearance. Hope this helps

Paul

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The way I play the SAP count usually overrides the NOR decision. You must have a strong indication from the SAP count. If it is close

I might ignore it and stay with the system. This is something you get the feel for after a while.

SAP actually replaces modes for me. You don't need to know what mode to play if the SAP count

is giving you LC and MC. I never worry about modes.

Hope this helps

Paul

Well, the first statement is well said. The second, well, not so much.

SAP counts as well as 1/2 (1st liner vs 2nd liner) are not the end all you guys seem to be thinking. Both only work well with high disparity.Therefore you would only consult either count when it has high disparity (difference). There is a good chance that one or the other, sometimes both, will have a meaningful disparity - the more the better. There will also be times when a lack of disparity will render one or the other or both impotent. Both counts are just a tool. But that tool must be used wisely and correctly or it can do you more harm than good.

Paul, remember the example we put on the board at the PA seminar? NOR killed that shoe. But when we tried to apply SAP, we turned a winning shoe into a losing shoe.

We must quantify both counts so that players use them when they should but stick to NOR when they shouldn't.

Sure we don't need the NOR Modes when SAP has sufficient disparity in the right counts. BUT when SAP lacks that disparity we need to rely on the NOR Modes. We can't throw out the baby with the wash. It is going to take a lot of effort to get this right. We need to know how much disparity is enough to override NOR vs how much is NOT enough. That is also true of the 1/2 count. We don't want players losing shoes because they tried to apply SAP or 1/2counts in shoes where they should have simply stuck with NOR.

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Hey Paul in my testing I've seen similar situations but it sounds like the bet may be more dependent from the SAP count at hand and overrides standard NOR bet placement.... Would you agree on this or am I seeing this the wrong way?

Just trying to play the practice shoes correctly so I don't stumble in scorecard keeping st the table when you need to be focused and have set stratedgy and disciple

Any other oobservasions that I should know about when incorporating the SAO count with NOR?

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Hey Paul in my testing I've seen similar situations but it sounds like the bet may be more dependent from the SAP count at hand and overrides standard NOR bet placement.... Would you agree on this or am I seeing this the wrong way?

Just trying to play the practice shoes correctly so I don't stumble in scorecard keeping st the table when you need to be focused and have set stratedgy and disciple

Any other oobservasions that I should know about when incorporating the SAO count with NOR?

You need to look at both to make an enlightened decision. If your NOR system selection is hitting nicely and your SAP counts show little disparity you want to stick with NOR for now. But if your Nor bet selection is hitting below 50% and you are showing high SAP disparity you want to go with SAP's judgement.

One problem with our current 4 Hi Sap count I see is with OTB4L. You STILL need to know when to go OTR - after a 4 in a row or after a 5. The 4Hi SAP count can't tell you that because it lumps 4s and 5 or mores together as 4 or mores. We may have to go back to the 8 Hi SAP count to get around this.

I'm also concerned about added complexity. About half our players still can't determine mode from the 3rd bet. What are they going to do with a Sap Count? Or with a 1/2 count? I'm thinking that about half our players should stick with straight NOR for now. And only the more studious half should attempt graduating to NORA.

There are still a lot of wrinkles to work out. Sap is the answer for some shoes but not for all. It was always weak in OTB4L shoes for instance. We dropped SAP because OTB4L shoes were becoming too common. The SAP system only averaged 6 units a shoe and that was attainable only by our best players. We need to find a way to use SAP effectively but simply as an augmentation tool for NOR, not as a stand alone system. We've already been there and done that.

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Ellis is correct as usual. The SAP count is just another tool in our arsenal. Yes, it

best used in shoes where we find great disparity, but that is exactly what I look for

before I sit down at a table. I only want to play at tables with disparity, so of course

the SAP count will come into play. I don't see the need for going past the 4 Hi SAP

count because it is very simple to just look at the scorecard to past events to see

how high they went - there won't be that many of them. I have done that when

trying to decide whether to stay OTR.

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Ellis is correct as usual. The SAP count is just another tool in our arsenal. Yes, it

best used in shoes where we find great disparity, but that is exactly what I look for

before I sit down at a table. I only want to play at tables with disparity, so of course

the SAP count will come into play. I don't see the need for going past the 4 Hi SAP

count because it is very simple to just look at the scorecard to past events to see

how high they went - there won't be that many of them. I have done that when

trying to decide whether to stay OTR.

Yes this is correct! WE don't need to go back to 8Hi SAP when you think about it. 4 Hi keeps SAP in its simplest form.

For OTB4L the 3rd bet rule works great. If you want to get more technical than that, fine then simply look at which there are more of 4s or 5+. (5 or mores). You don't need SAP to tell you that. You just need eyes.

Look, nobody needs to tell me that we don't always have the sharpest blades in the razor. That is what teaching is all about. Around here, NOBODY gets left behind. We always want to choose methods that EVERYONE understands.

I am not guilty of being a scammer as many say. Ask Paul. (zebra) But I am, in fact, guilty of going over students heads. It is not the same thing but it might as well be. But, I learn from my mistakes. NOBODY gets left behind is a recently acquired motto. It is a motto born of making mistakes.

A 160 IQ does you no good at all if nobody understands what in hell you are talking about.

We ALL need to focus on that motto. NOBODY gets left behind.

If you have a question, ask it! Many more may have the same question. They just can't formulate it. Or they THINK they can't.

We understand ALL attempts at English. ASK your question.

LOOK, I want ALL of you to beat casinos. I have no family except you. YOU are my whole purpose.

If you win, I win.

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Ha ! Where do I send my winning $$$$'s Ellis?

As always your family here respects your intelligence and "yes" we are all here for the same outcome, to be advantage players and withdraw cash from the casinos, at least that's how I see it.

On second thought I may keep the winning $$$'s for myself order than my my favorite charity.

CC

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Ha ! Where do I send my winning $$$$'s Ellis?

As always your family here respects your intelligence and "yes" we are all here for the same outcome, to be advantage players and withdraw cash from the casinos, at least that's how I see it.

On second thought I may keep the winning $$$'s for myself order than my my favorite charity.

CC

You are supposed to send all your winnings here. Didn't you know that?

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  • 2 months later...
Let me give a simple example. Suppose you come upon a shoe and you

notice many 1's. This is a great S40 shoe. You start to play and after

a while your SAP count is 7-2-8-4. Now you have PBB. You won the

first B, lost the second. S40 is telling you to bet opposite for 2 units.

In other words, bet opposite and the 2 will stay a 2. But the SAP count

is telling you that 2's DO NOT remain 2's because 2's are LC. Also, 3's

(or 3+'s) are MC. So SAP is saying bet B (repeat) instead of opposite.

Notice that I never used the word "mode". Now as I said, this is a very

simple example. It is often not so easy to see what your play should be.

Experience and practice will help you make these interpretations. I have

been playing this way successfully pretty much since NOR made its

appearance. Hope this helps

Paul

sorry....can someone explain what is LC and MC? Thanks.

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