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Update on AC Seminar


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Hi Ellis,

Hope that the AC seminar went great. Can anyone share an update on what was being taught during the seminar? I believe many of us are looking forward to learning the new NORSAP or NORA.

Could you post something soon to feed our appetite? ^_^

I am thinking no posts = limited results?

When in N + O + R "rocks"

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Well rats, I wrote a complete report yesteday but then lost the whole thing when my computer jammed. What do you do when nomatter what key you hit a little bell sounds but nothing works or moves? Anyway, here we go again.

I spent very little time on NOR except to answer a few questions since everyone there already had studied their NOR Manual.

I demonstrated how to do the count and play 1st and 2nd liners. Then I went through basic Net Betting.

Then Zebra (Paul) went through adding key SAP plays to NOR. He has been playing this way for some time now and has it all down pat.

I did the Friday night play session and then since my old body refused, Paul did the Sat night play session. Both went OK but not up to our usual standards. I only had one +10 shoe and a bunch of +5s and 6s and lost one shoe at -4. Paul finished at +20 but that was over a lot of shoes.

While both Paul and I were looking to also bet either first or second liners we never got a chance because every time we got a + or - count, it would go right back to zero. Most of the shoes were pretty much trendless which is very typical of AC on Fri and Sat nights.

You know, when I played AC full time for 3 years, I quickly learned to avoid Friday nights and Saturdays and Sundays altogether and also Mondays on long weekends. It is easy to see why in BJ. Over playing the same cards clumps them to a totally unplayable condition.

Initially I learned Bac to fill in weekends but I soon learned that Bac was no good on weekends in AC either. For sure, the cards don't know what day of the week it is and I don't think the casinos do anything different. It's just that all that extra shuffling for the weekend crowds eventually randomizes the cards leaving few, if any, biases. It's like a whole new world come Monday morning. This is why weekday mornings are my favorite time to play either game.

Such a play schedule is pretty easy for retired guys like Paul and me. I haven't actually worked at a public job since 1992.

But I think we both got a good dose of what most of you guys are usually up against.

Having Sat night off and all day Sunday and the long trip home gave me plenty of time to ponder this situation uninterrupted. I actually didn't arrive home until early Monday morning.

I've got some good news! But first I want to warn you. Just because I'm going to bring up something new here does't mean you should forget NOR. NOR is still the best way ever created to beat biased cards and it always will be. But in random cards, the NOR Modes become meaningless and so does SAP and second liners since they are ALL based on biases.

But what can we do when we face mostly random cards? OTB4L likes Neutral cards but it has a problem with the average of 18 1's in a random shoe. Yes, it beats single 1's but half of those 1's will come in multiples. OTB4L stumbles on multiple 1's.

So what beats random cards??? Net Betting does!

So your first question should be well what about choppy shoes and streaky shoes? We still get those even with old cards and preshuffled cards.

Well there is an aspect of Net Betting I have never discussed on this forum before called low vs high side betting. Picture the simplest form of Net Betting, Player vs. Bank. Your progs go straight down your score card so you don't need color coding. Extremely simple. Say you have a 2 vs. 1. So OK, your table bet is 1 unit. Normally we bet that 1 unit on the side with the higher entry. You'll quickly see that when we bet high side we win every bet in a ZZ run and our bets never increase, they stay at 1 unit.

Well the opposite it also true. When we place our bet on the low entry side we win every bet in a straight run. Well, just for starters, what if we say we are going to bet high side after an opposite and low side after a repeat. Well Bingo, we win every bet in all straight and ZZ runs.

It is easy but not quite that easy. Only about half the shoe is composed of straight or ZZ runs of 3 or more. We also must beat the "garbage" half. To do this, sometimes we will have to wait for a second repeat in a row to bet low side. It will take me a little time to work this all out into a finalized system. I don't think this will take much since I invented Net Betting many years ago and since I know all the ins and outs from playing it for at least 12 years in the casinos with great success.

The form of Net Betting I am talking about has many huge advantages:

1. You bet less to make the same amount of money. It bets only about half as much as NOR.

2. You need to learn only one system instead of 3. NB automatically follows the shoe at hand with little input from you.

3. Since you are not waiting to confirm a bias, you can start anywhere in a shoe including the beginning.

4. There are no Modes to go wrong.

5. You can still play streaky, choppy, and neutral shoes but now you also have a big advantage in random shoes where NOR, SAP and 2nd liners is found lacking.

6. While you can play W/O table selection there are still advantages to table selection. But this helps when no table selection is available and on line.

7. It is a far better way to play random cards regardless if that condition exist through excessive shuffling or preshuffling either at the card factory or in a special casino shuffling room.

8. It is much easier to play. Not nearly so white knuckle. You can converse with the others at the table, be human again, maybe even a Scotch or two.

I'm not sure of the details of exactly how we will market this new venture but Keith is telling me we can't give it away again. We simply can't afford that. I think we will offer it to existing NOR members at a low affordable price but keep close to the existing price structure for new members.

Anyway, that is what has been keeping me so busy lately. I'm hoping to have a complete manual very soon.

Remember what I said at the beginning. Don't forget NOR.

What will we call this new sytem? Well that's the part I'm not good at. Maybe BTC. Anybody got any better ideas?

Edited by Guest
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Hello Ellis: my name is Zdenek. I would like to ask you several questions :

1. What will I get for paying the 1000$ for your system TWISTER and also, what is the antiTwister ???

2. You know, $1000 is a lot of money, but … how long would it take for me, to get the 1000$ back by winning at BACCARAT ???

3. Can I use it on ONLINE CASINOS (Las vegas casino - PlayTech)

4. Is there any money back refund / guarantee ???

Sorry, if the questions are too common for you, or maybe stupid … and, excuse my poor English.

Zdenek

P.S. : Can you explain to me the difference between your system and all the others I see on the internet.

Hi Zdenek, Ellis here: Your questions are excellent and very representative of what others want to know. There’s no such thing as a stupid question. I have numbered my replies the same as your questions above.

1.0: What do I get?

1.1: You get life time membership in our group and our school.

This means, for one thing, that you get all updates, improvements, and new systems free for life.

1.2: Our job is to teach you step by step to become a professional player. You will be rubbing elbows with other beginners as well as with experienced winners, and professionals, learning from their trip reports and their casino strategies. Recognize that there are many aspects to becoming a professional player. You must learn the ways of the casino. You must understand the weapons the casino deploys against you and how to turn those same weapons against them. You must learn how to get information about your game before you play it: How to use the tote board; how to get reliable information from the other players; how to read their scorecards and get critical information from them; how to glean information from the card preps and shuffles; how to time shuffle machines to know what kind of shoe you are about to play; how to anticipate what casino tactics to expect from the way the others are playing. You are about to enter the world of the professional player as well as the world of the casino. Recognize that a player with no casino savvy armed only with a single system, no matter how good that system is, has no chance whatever. The casino will devour him. Recognize that its not about beating testers, its not about beating computers, its about taking well guarded money from CASINOS. That’s a whole different ball game. Testers and computers are not out to beat you. CASINOS ARE! And WILL! It’s their JOB and they are very good at their job. My job is to stop them and I’m very good at my job. Just as the casino relies on a highly experienced, highly paid casino Manager to beat you, you need an equally experienced professional mentor to beat them. Just as a professional football team would never dream of going to a playoff game with only one play, no matter how good that play is, and without thoroughly studying their opponent’s tactics, neither should you enter a casino with those same fatal handicaps. You’re not there to play games, you’re there to win!

1.3: 99% of all players play either streak or chop. They bet repeats or opposites. But 99% of all players lose. Casinos don’t present only two game types. They present eight game types. Therefore, we teach you eight systems. Twister is not a single system. There is NO single system that can beat today’s Baccarat game. Twister is a professional, real world approach to the game. You must be equipped to deal with whatever the casinos dish out and you need to know what kind of shoe to expect. We teach you how to know which system is the most effective for the shoe type you are playing right now. That is what winning professional play is all about.

1.4: Casinos MUST present biased games to remain viable. Casinos can’t survive on the 1.25% profits that commission generates. They need and get 16%. Casinos, with help from the card prep, the shuffle and the shuffle machine, have total control over the game type presented. They present the game type favorable to THEM, not the players. We teach you how to anticipate and identify the bias at hand and how to play WITH that bias instead of AGAINST it like the amateurs do.

1.5: Dealers cheat! They are like CIA agents. If they get caught the casino disavows them. But they almost never get caught. If you don’t know exactly how they cheat, its only a question of time. You WILL get cheated. We teach you how to detect and how to avoid getting cheated. We’re on to them!

1.6: We teach you how to net bet! We have known for 15 years that net betting is far and away the best betting method for Bac.

Progressive betting is simply too risky. Flat betting is silly. Look, Baccarat is a 50 - 50 game. Every play is 50 - 50. There are no patterns. There is no way to predict the outcome of any play. It’s purely 50 - 50. Half the time you will win more than half the hands and half the time you won’t. No professional would ever flat bet in a 50 - 50 game. This would be totally naïve. When you flat bet, the ONLY way you can win is to win more than half the hands; Considerably more when you figure in commission. Why would you limit yourself to winning only half the time? The game is hard enough without handicapping yourself. The object of the game isn’t to win the most hands. The object is to win the most MONEY. That is exactly why you net bet! Net betting will ALWAYS win when you win more than half the hands. But it often wins the most when you win less than half the hands. Try that flat betting. Net betting is a process of greatly reducing your avg. bet size (and your commission) while increasing your avg. units won and your player advantage. Which reminds me, you don’t want to be fooling around with single digit player advantages. You need a double digit player advantage. Net betting is the way to go. Always was and always will be. True pros know that!

1.7: You get download instructions for your manual and color coded sample games and you get the password for our private forum where we hold our classes and where you can converse freely with me and the other players. This is where you learn how to become a professional player, where you get your playing tips, your updates, advice on casinos you plan to play and all the personal help you need. The players here speak many languages.

2.0 How long does it take to learn?

2.1: This depends somewhat on your experience level and your knowledge of the rules of the game. We strongly recommend that you don’t play until you know the rules of Baccarat and the first two systems thoroughly. We recommend that you practice at home until you can play fluidly without error.

2.2: Nevertheless, some more experienced players have gone to the casino the same day they downloaded their manual. Most did well and some well enough to pay for their manual the same day they got it. Still, I would feel a lot better if you gave it more study first.

2.3: The first two systems are the Twister and the AntiTwister. They are the hardest of the 8 to learn mostly because they are also your first experience with net betting. The other 6 are easy.

The first two are what I call amateur systems. They do not involve any prior knowledge of the shoe type. That’s where I draw the line between amateurs and pros. Pros always bet with an edge. Pros will have researched the shoe type before they play and will select the appropriate system accordingly. They will often, therefore, play much higher return systems. But when you first start, you won’t know how to do that research. It takes time to learn. But meanwhile that is exactly what the Twister / Anti twister is designed for. The Twister has a chop mode to handle chop and a streak mode to handle streak. Most of my competitors stop right there. That’s it, that’s all you get. But Twister doesn’t stop there. If it did it would be too easy for the casino to beat. All they need do is shuffle for a neutral shoe. About the time you go to chop the shoe goes to streak and when you go to streak, the shoe goes to chop. It’s like having your shoes on the wrong feet. When this happens, The Twister will automatically kick you into the AntiTwister mode, usually within the first 15 plays. AntiTwister works like a third mode. It likes neutral. It likes what the Twister does not like. It likes the very shoe type the casino is most likely to deploy against Twister.

See, Twister, with its three modes, is a cleverly designed entrapment for the casino. It gets them coming and it gets them going. But if they try to escape out the side, it puts AntiTwister to work and gets them there too. It’s very much like learning golf. Twister is like a very fine all purpose club you can use to play very well while you are learning the purpose of the other clubs. But, esp. because it employs net betting and esp. because it employs three modes, it is the best all purpose system ever devised.

3.O: Can I use it for on line casinos?

3.1: Zednek, I would love to tell you yes. If I could say yes to that question, my sales would increase ten fold. But I can’t and won’t say yes. On line casinos cheat. Until they clean up there own industry, I would steer well clear of them.

3.2: There are sites on the internet that purport to separate the cheaters from the non cheaters. But I have no way to verify this information. I have had players beat these casinos only to have the casino refuse to pay off. The horror stories are endless.

3.3: Anyone who tells you their system will beat these casinos is jeopardizing your money, not their own. I won’t do this. Enough said.

4.0: How does the financing work?

4.1: We charge you $500. Usually this is done by Paypal because that is usually the simplest way. But other methods can be used: personal check, Western Union, etc. You receive your download instructions, with necessary pass words.

4.2: A month later we bill your account the other $500. Now you are a member for life. But if, in the interim you decide that this isn’t for you or that you want to stick with the amateur systems, you have that opportunity. We have had only one person elect to do that.

5.0: The difference between us and others:

5.1: Zednek, precious few players beat this game consistently. Those that do win by preying on casino biases. That is the only way to win. That is what we teach. There is no single system that even beats random numbers, let alone the multitude of casino biases. Yet that is what they sell. We don’t and won’t. We won’t take advantage of our own students. Enough said.

Sections 1.0 1.1 and 5.0 5.1 are particularly enlightening.

Your "idea" to charge existing members for your newest latest and greatest take on Net Betting is offensive and a direct violation of what I thought I piad for with my LIFETIME MEMBERSHIP. This is very insulting and distressing.

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Thanks for replying Ellis.

Somehow i thought information on playing baccarat are to be taught and shared generously between members in the private forum for free. Charging us for a "new system" seem unjustifiable.

Moreover you haven't even reply to the OvR Net Betting thread over at Universal Baccarat thread after the XDX fiasco. I would ask that you don't leave thread postings halfway hanging and if you would take some time off your busy schedule to reply promptly, i believe it will certainly benefit more members here.

Of course these are my personal opinion and i hope you don't get offended by what i said.

Edited by witchygal
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Ellis,

I've been a member of the forum for about 5 years now and think that you and Keith have been great and very informative. When I first joined we were doing the net-bet thing and then we stopped and got into other things which have now evolved to NOR. Are you saying that you were holding out some information on net betting back then that you now want to charge for or is this something new to net betting that you haven't used before. I've often wondered if you play the same way you teach us (which is very good) or are there certain tricks that you still keep to yourself( which you have every right to do). I like to play online since I can bet lower amounts and don't have to travel but notice on BP that a shoe will start out the first 20 plays s-40 then switch to F and then switch to OTB4L all in the same shoe. Will this new net betting help us to combat this situation?

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Hi Vic, I'm guessing that your point is that ten years ago or whatever we sold lifetime memberships for $1000. I'm guessing that we would still hold true to that. But we dropped the $1000 lifetime memberships a long time ago and we sell forum memberships now for less money. Like, for instance, the Universal forum. Keith was good enough to upgrade everyone in the Universal forum to the NOR forum but we simply can't continue to do that due to vastly increased competition.

Back then we had virtually no real competition for new memberships and we were getting several per day. I wrote the first ever Baccarat book (They sold at $3000 per copy) and Keith started the first ever Baccarat forum. Since we had no competition it was easy to only make money on new memberships.

But today we are competing with hundreds of new forums for the same members and getting new members is like pulling teeth. Recognize that prospective members have no idea of which forum to join. So all we get is a very small share.

Like the guy the other day who said he had gone with 200 different purchases. Well we can't keep the forum afloat that way. And not many people can afford multiple purchases.

I never dreamed when I started all this that every Tom Dick and Harry on the internet would go into competition with me regardless of the proven fact that they have no idea of what they are talking about. But it renders Keith and me working for less than half of minimum wage.

We tried other things first like commission sales but very few members are the least bit interested in that in spite of the fact that we have paid out a lot of commission. People don't come here to work.

So unless somebody sees some other way of doing it I don't see where we have any other choice but to go back to Manual sales which is the way we started out. At least now we can keep the prices a lot lower.

With what I know now it was a big mistake to get away from manual sales but who could foresee all this fly by night competition. At least we are only looking at about a tenth of what we used to charge.

Does anyone have a better idea? I'll listen to anything.

It is still very low cost for what everybody gets and still the best Baccarat forum in existance.

The only alternative I see is to start a new forum and go back to our old pricing which has drasticaklly inflated at this point. We are trying to avoid all that.

Edited by Guest
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If somebody has some idea of how to conduct a huge membership drive that might solve the whole problem. Marketing has always been my weakest subject and I always had pros like Jerry Patterson doing my marketing. But he is completely retired now. The problem as I see it is every Tom Dick and Harry is doing the same thing. How to we make our voices heard over all of the others. Do we have any Marketing pros out there? If so, what do you suggest?

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Oh, I also tried buying one of those gamblers sales lists on the internet but it turned out to be a complete scam. I mailed out 10,000 sales letters and got no replies whatsoever. Most came back in return mail.

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Thanks for replying Ellis.

Somehow i thought information on playing baccarat are to be taught and shared generously between members in the private forum for free. Charging us for a "new system" seem unjustifiable.

Moreover you haven't even reply to the OvR Net Betting thread over at Universal Baccarat thread after the XDX fiasco. I would ask that you don't leave thread postings halfway hanging and if you would take some time off your busy schedule to reply promptly, i believe it will certainly benefit more members here.

Of course these are my personal opinion and i hope you don't get offended by what i said.

Well, I was teaching it at the seminar. But also rather than teach a short version just to fix XDX when you have a tied SAP count (quite rare) I'm thinking a full blown version designed for random cards as well as biased cards would do everyone a lot more good, especially our Singapore players. I'm thinking that since the NOR Modes are not doing well against your preshuffled cards in Singapore, you might prefer a modeless system??? Quite frankly, I don't think SAP will do well against Singapore cards either for the very same reason but I'm anxiously awaiting your report on that. I could be wrong. I remember once back in '54 .....

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Hi Vic, I'm guessing that your point is that ten years ago or whatever we sold lifetime memberships for $1000. I'm guessing that we would still hold true to that. But we dropped the $1000 lifetime memberships a long time ago and we sell forum memberships now for less money. Like, for instance, the Universal forum. Keith was good enough to upgrade everyone in the Universal forum to the NOR forum but we simply can't continue to do that due to vastly increased competition.

Back then we had virtually no real competition for new memberships and we were getting several per day. I wrote the first ever Baccarat book (They sold at $3000 per copy) and Keith started the first ever Baccarat forum. Since we had no competition it was easy to only make money on new memberships.

But today we are competing with hundreds of new forums for the same members and getting new members is like pulling teeth. Recognize that prospective members have no idea of which forum to join. So all we get is a very small share.

Like the guy the other day who said he had gone with 200 different purchases. Well we can't keep the forum afloat that way. And not many people can afford multiple purchases.

I never dreamed when I started all this that every Tom Dick and Harry on the internet would go into competition with me regardless of the proven fact that they have no idea of what they are talking about. But it renders Keith and me working for less than half of minimum wage.

We tried other things first like commission sales but very few members are the least bit interested in that in spite of the fact that we have paid out a lot of commission. People don't come here to work.

So unless somebody sees some other way of doing it I don't see where we have any other choice but to go back to Manual sales which is the way we started out. At least now we can keep the prices a lot lower.

With what I know now it was a big mistake to get away from manual sales but who could foresee all this fly by night competition. At least we are only looking at about a tenth of what we used to charge.

Does anyone have a better idea? I'll listen to anything.

It is still very low cost for what everybody gets and still the best Baccarat forum in existance.

The only alternative I see is to start a new forum and go back to our old pricing which has drasticaklly inflated at this point. We are trying to avoid all that.

Oh boy. Here we go.

I posted that old forum entry to point out what you got with your lifetime membership. But now you are reclassifying the terms and splitting hairs calling lifetime memberships, "forum memberships". Haha, Fine. Guess what, that is taking advantage of your students. Something you claimed BTC was above and would never do.

ways to market your forum for you? I got one. WORD OF MOUTH. Its a very powerful marketing technique.

These past 2-3 weeks around here have been like an old twilight zone episode. Unbelievable.

Edited by BigVic
Calmed down from being pissed as Hell.
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Vic, let's not start with that again. I don't recall ever charging any member $1000 for membership. Yes we ran that ad as PJ pointed out but we never went through with that price as far as I can recall. I think we immediately discounted it. If I'm wrong It was a lot of years ago and I apologize for a faulty memory. But I don't think I'm wrong.

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Well, that did it. I withdraw the offer. If nobody minds I will leave my basic trip report up and delete all after it. I didn't mean to start yet another brawl. But I won't tolerate any name calling on this forum. This is not BF.

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Ellis,

I've been a member of the forum for about 5 years now and think that you and Keith have been great and very informative. When I first joined we were doing the net-bet thing and then we stopped and got into other things which have now evolved to NOR. Are you saying that you were holding out some information on net betting back then that you now want to charge for or is this something new to net betting that you haven't used before. I've often wondered if you play the same way you teach us (which is very good) or are there certain tricks that you still keep to yourself( which you have every right to do). I like to play online since I can bet lower amounts and don't have to travel but notice on BP that a shoe will start out the first 20 plays s-40 then switch to F and then switch to OTB4L all in the same shoe. Will this new net betting help us to combat this situation?

Hi Sinatra 1, I still like that user name.

I already wrote you a rather lengthy reply but somehow it got lost in the shuffle. In all the excitment I probably forgot to hit the send button. Guys that have attended our seminars will vouch for the fact that in seminar live play sessions, I always adhere exactly to the manual I'm demonstrating including the recommended cash mgt. At the AC seminar play session I stuck religiously to NOR.

Since I also taught Net Betting at that seminar and since it was so well received, in hindsight I think I would have been better off to play it in the play session as soon as I saw how random the cards were. Keith even suggested that I switch to Net Betting. But that was the Friday night before the seminar so nobody would have known what the heck I was doing. I felt obligated to stick to NOR even though I think NB would have outperformed. In private play I still stick to the manual for the most part. Once in a while I'll slip into U1D2 betting and get a little more aggressive in a really good situation but that is not anything we haven't already taught. No, I can't think of any personal tricks I use that I haven't taught. But I do select the best playing hours and take advantage of the more consistent new cards.

Yes, I do think net betting the way I was proposing would be ideal for online play. But I have decided to save it for seminar attendees. I'm getting too old to take on writing more manuals anyway. Manuals are a much bigger job than most realize. Everthing must be so thoroughly checked out. A single mistake can cost a lot of good people a lot of money. You must be incredibly carefull with every word you write and every phrase you use. You can't leave anything to possible misinterpretation and always remember that a lot of your readership are not native English speaking. Besides, seminar attendees should get a little something extra for their money anyway, don't you think.

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So I take it that nobody has any objections. I'll wait until morning. I'm having a well deserved Scotch at the moment and I would likely screw it up anyway. One nice thing about being my age - it doesn't take nearly as much Scotch.

So I played pool with the boys at the club again last night like I do most Wednesday nights. Hey, it's Arkansas. Nothing else to do. Won 4 out of 5. Pool is just applied mathematics. Pisses those kids off. But then I buy them a beer and all is forgotten. But I have fantastic ears. "How can a guy that old shoot that good? It's unfreaking real!" But, see, I was raised in New York.

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I for one would pay for the net betting/SAP idea discussed at AC!

Well thanks bluetri. I'm well into the Scotch at this point so, I know to avoid making any hard decisions. It is the exact same with casino play - Don't play when you can't freaking play. Only play and only under the right conditions, when you are upspirited, your brain is alive and you know exactly what you are doing and WHY. At that point you are freaking unbeatable. THOSE are the episodes you are looking for - you are trying to create. That is what Pro Bac is all about.

I get these guys who say something like "Ellis I can only play on my lunch hour. I'm seeing none of the conditions you describe. Can you please help me." Well frankly, NO! Look, I know that I'm the best there is. No bragging here - just a statement of the facts. But I'm not Jesus. I don't do miricles! You've got to give yourself the chance to win - the opportunity. You must do all those things FIRST. THEN i can show you how to win.

blurtri, I'm not expecting you to make a U.S. seminar from Austrailia. Sure, like other offshore members we would not charge you for a seminar. But I know what you are thinking. Big bloody whip! But I promise I will get you the information. You bloats do have CD players in Austrailia , right mate? And for you, there will be no charge. Now, back to serious business. Do you guys have Scotch in Austrailia? Hmmm, always wanted to visit. Do you mates still throw knives in the bars? I'm pretty good at that. A wannabe Aussi! Hey, you got pool?

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I'm with Bluetri, even though I'm a lifetime member, sometimes things change so I would also be willing to pay to help offset the development costs, etc of a newly revised net betting system. I'm sure the cost would be much less to purchase it than the cost of not having it! Please reconsider pursuing the development. I have to mostly play bet phoenix and I have noticed the modes changing several times per shoe as was mentioned above and I would really like a way to combat that problem!

Thanks,

Jim

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I'm with Bluetri, even though I'm a lifetime member, sometimes things change so I would also be willing to pay to help offset the development costs, etc of a newly revised net betting system. I'm sure the cost would be much less to purchase it than the cost of not having it! Please reconsider pursuing the development. I have to mostly play bet phoenix and I have noticed the modes changing several times per shoe as was mentioned above and I would really like a way to combat that problem!

Jim

Well, in fact Jim, I WILL reconsider it. I always pay attention when saner minds prevail. But when a member tells me he will never pay another dime as long as he lives I must pay attention to that fact as if it were indeed a fact. This is a business. We are in the business to make money, you know, just like all other businesses. Nobody gets a free ride. Why in God's name would I keep a confessed deadbeat. Would you? Why would anybody in sound mind? So fine, even though Big Vic or whatever wasn't invited on the first go around I suspect that PJ will welcome him with open arms on his own forum and declare him a hero. So be it. I hope he wins but I seriously doubt it. There are certain flaws that PJ simply wouldn't allow me to correct. Vic is about to learn this the hard way. So be it. It is the common situation of the student who thinks he knows more than his teacher. Been there, done that. PJ learned everything he knows from me and other BTC members. So Big Vic, choose the student over the teacher. See if I care.

Oh, and by the way Vic, I never called anyone a liar. I simply questioned why anyone would say such a thing and PJ immedioutly recanted. The sign of a true gentleman. But then there is you and all your happy horseshit. Hey Vic, get lost. We don't need deadbeats. Have fun at PJ's. I'm sure you guys will have lots in common.

Oh, sorry Jim, I guess I got a little carried away there. Right, I think this Net Betting scheme is just what the Doctor ordered to keep up with the latest casino schemes. Those guys are always thinking. They can afford to hire the best! Unfortunately, all you have is me. But at least I didn't change sides back when I could have.

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Hi Ellis, it seems to me that this will be a perfect fit with NOR. I hope to hell everyone understands that this is not a replacement for NOR. From what little Ellis has told us this will be a great add on to what we already have with NOR. The casinos do not sit still, and neither should we. I've been a member here since 07, as far as i'm concerned with all the info thats been given to me I'll be more than happy to buy a new manual. I dont know about anybody else here but I play this game to make money. So big deal you might have to buy another manual, what happens if you run into these games and dont have the smarts to beat them? Wake up people he is not trying to SCREW YOU. I've known Ellis and Keith since 1992 NBJ,WCB AND BAC. I've never had a problem with either one of them. Ellis we need to play some pool sometime any game you like as long as it's for cash. Better yet I'll play for the new manual. Brian....................

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Well, in fact Jim, I WILL reconsider it. I always pay attention when saner minds prevail. But when a member tells me he will never pay another dime as long as he lives I must pay attention to that fact as if it were indeed a fact. This is a business. We are in the business to make money, you know, just like all other businesses. Nobody gets a free ride. Why in God's name would I keep a confessed deadbeat. Would you? Why would anybody in sound mind? So fine, even though Big Vic or whatever wasn't invited on the first go around I suspect that PJ will welcome him with open arms on his own forum and declare him a hero. So be it. I hope he wins but I seriously doubt it. There are certain flaws that PJ simply wouldn't allow me to correct. Vic is about to learn this the hard way. So be it. It is the common situation of the student who thinks he knows more than his teacher. Been there, done that. PJ learned everything he knows from me and other BTC members. So Big Vic, choose the student over the teacher. See if I care.

Oh, and by the way Vic, I never called anyone a liar. I simply questioned why anyone would say such a thing and PJ immedioutly recanted. The sign of a true gentleman. But then there is you and all your happy horseshit. Hey Vic, get lost. We don't need deadbeats. Have fun at PJ's. I'm sure you guys will have lots in common.

Oh, sorry Jim, I guess I got a little carried away there. Right, I think this Net Betting scheme is just what the Doctor ordered to keep up with the latest casino schemes. Those guys are always thinking. They can afford to hire the best! Unfortunately, all you have is me. But at least I didn't change sides back when I could have.

While at the Atlantic City Seminar, Keith had asked a few attendees if we had any suggestions about how to increase membership in BTC. I believe both Ellis and Keith should re-evaluate their business model. We all paid a LIFETIME membership here. I am not sure what the amount was five years ago in comparison to now, but does it really matter? There is no need for the Principals here to go out and try to recruit new members. YOU HAVE THEM ALREADY!! People who are really serious about improving their BAC or Blackjack skills want to get access EVEN MORE valuable and proven methods that would be used to make extra $$ playing either or both table games. Many persons pay for a nutritionist,personal trainer, golf or tennis instructor, or a tutor for our kids. I purpose a higher level membership of BTC. It would a MONTHLY FEE based version where only lifetime members would eligible to participate. As members we would get top flight instruction from Ellis,Keith and other experts they would enlist to assist us in become as good as BAC or Blackjack player we could be. Instruction would include written materials to go along with video presentations that could all go back and reference. There would be a forum to ask questions and exchange thoughts, and any follow ups from Ellis and Keith to make sure we are all on the same page. This would be constantly evolving thing where there wasn't much time lag in particpation. My time is worth money and so in return the people I am paying the monthly fee to also would feel the same way.

Leonard Benson had this bright idea about 28 months ago of having a 6 hour a LIVE Online Seminar. It never got off the ground because not enough persons (other than myself and few scant others) wanted to do it. I think this is something to ponder as far as seminars go since members live across this country and in some cases, across the globe. Our time when we do schedule for us together at some Casino will be totally centered on actual play rather than part instruction/part playing. Internet seminar would cost less to operate and savings would passed on to the participants. It's a win win situation.

The point I am trying to make here is that I believe there are enough persons like myself that want to learn as much as there is to know how to really beat the crap out a Casino on a consistent basis. What I have been taught so far here, gives more confidence than ever. But, if I can go another level, I will pay for what is needed to get me there.

Am I totally off base here?

Ciao

Joey

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Well, I was teaching it at the seminar. But also rather than teach a short version just to fix XDX when you have a tied SAP count (quite rare) I'm thinking a full blown version designed for random cards as well as biased cards would do everyone a lot more good, especially our Singapore players. I'm thinking that since the NOR Modes are not doing well against your preshuffled cards in Singapore, you might prefer a modeless system??? Quite frankly, I don't think SAP will do well against Singapore cards either for the very same reason but I'm anxiously awaiting your report on that. I could be wrong. I remember once back in '54 .....

Hah so those who couldn't make it to the seminar will not be able to learn anything. It's like throwing a wet blanket over you know? Ellis, you already knew that we were facing modes problems in Singapore and Asia casinos and i believe that this happens worldwide too with preshuffled cards. Changing the NOR play method to mode 2 with a progression within a progression may seems cheaper to the units incurred but it also does not rectify the problem.

Witchy, remember that Modes are based on SAP too. That is why I have my doubts about SAP against preshuffled cards. Can you confirm? Or deny?

Yes i agree SAP will guide you which to bet and indirectly it replaces modes. However SAP is not mechanical like NOR. We change when the values change. NOR is more mechanical.

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Hmmm, all I was trying to point out is that I didn't abandon the net bet thread. I was 1200 miles away and preoccupied.

Standard NOR already uses SAP to determine when to go OTR. The 3rd bet rule is SAP.

For instance, say you are playing OTB4L. What you are interested in is which you are seeing more of 4s or 5 or mores so that you know when best to go OTR, if at all. There is only an average of 2 4s and 2 5 or mores in an entire shoe. And the first one doesn't count because you are not betting on it. If the shoe is streakier than that, you would not be playing OTB4L. You would be playing F.

So usually you are making your decision based on the last 4 or more event. The 3rd bet rule gives you the correct SAP play based on the last 4 or more which is usually the only 4 or more. The 3rd bet rule gives you the latest SAP information.

So if you are saying that Modes are not reliable, you are, in fact, saying that SAP is not reliable with preshuffled cards. That is what I'm going by.

If that is the situation you have two choices:

Stay in mode 2 and bet a 0123 prog on your OTR bets that is independent of your regular 123 prog. Note that I didn't put a 4 on the end of either prog because Mode 2 has no 4 bet.

The other choice is to net bet in the way I'm proposing. In that case you don't care whether a run goes 4 or 5 because in both cases you are already on the run. The whole OTR decision is eliminated.

It is just semantics but your last statement is backwards. SAP is 100% mechanical. Every bet is based on either MC or LC. It is NOR that is not fully mechanical because you have to decide on which system to play as well as if and when to go OTR. Once you are making decisions it is no longer mechanical.

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