Sample Shoes

[kit walker]

After examining the initial rules provided, I am seeking confirmation that the following shoes are played correctly. All shoes were played beyond the stop win / loss rules. Shorthand notation is provided for the entire shoe that was recorded.

This is a small sample (8) of 103 recent real live shoes that I have recorded (and bet on using NOR) from three online casino platforms in the past month. None of the shoes were randomly generated.

If I was to play the U2Hi system (with the stop win / loss rules) over the past month on those 103 shoes, I would have won 51 (49.5%) and lost 52 (51.5%) of those shoes. I would have made a profit of 53 units. This makes the average unit return per shoe to be 0.5 units or 1.04 units per winning shoe. This is massively below the ~6 units advertised.

I think the success rate could be improved if the initial hands were reviewed for unfavorable patterns, or wait for a choppy start before jumping in.

The headers in the screenshots for each shoe are as follows:

Hand = Hand Number

P = Player Bet / Result

B = Banker Bet / Result

Score = Score

PrP = OvR Net Bet Progression for player bets (figures in blue = opposite, red = repeat) - these should be exactly like the examples provided by Keith, Ellis & co.

PrB = OvR Net Bet Progression for banker bets (figures in blue = opposite, red = repeat) - these should be exactly like the examples provided by Keith, Ellis & co.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shoe #1:

Online Casino Platform: MicroGaming (32Red / DublinBet Multiplayer Baccarat)

B11222113111211

B112113

If stop win/loss rule used, left with score of 6.

Lowest Score = -1

Highest Score = 12

Hands = 29

Bets = 27

Wins = 17

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Shoe #2:

Online Casino Platform: MicroGaming (32Red / DublinBet Multiplayer Baccarat)

B21121152221

B11313353

P1211

If stop win/loss rule used, left with score of -5

Lowest Score = -13

Highest Score = 4

Hands = 45

Bets = 43

Wins = 18

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Shoe #3:

Online Casino Platform: MicroGaming (32Red / DublinBet Multiplayer Baccarat)

P141225221

B1313212111211

P33211

If stop win/loss rule used, left with score of -5

Lowest Score = -12

Highest Score = 0

Hands = 50

Bets = 48

Wins = 22

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Shoe #4:

Online Casino Platform: Visionary iGaming (BlackOrchid / DublinBet ViG)

P1253221112

P1141211711

B1312111111

If stop win/loss rule used, left with score of -5

Lowest Score = -6

Highest Score = 8

Hands = 53

Bets = 51

Wins = 29

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Shoe #5:

Online Casino Platform: Visionary iGaming (BlackOrchid / DublinBet ViG)

P22121114132

P31112327

B13152

If stop win/loss rule used, left with score of -5

Lowest Score = -6

Highest Score = 4

Hands = 52

Bets = 50

Wins = 23

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shoe #6:

Online Casino Platform: MicroGaming (32Red / DublinBet Multiplayer Baccarat)

B212115512

P1111111111211123

P112111

If stop win/loss rule used, left with score of 6

Lowest Score = -3

Highest Score = 23

Hands = 47

Bets = 45

Wins = 30

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shoe #7:

Online Casino Platform: Visionary iGaming (BlackOrchid / DublinBet ViG)

P131411123111

B1112213212112

B22421213

If stop win/loss rule used, left with score of -5

Lowest Score = -11

Highest Score = 0

Hands = 57

Bets = 55

Wins = 26

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shoe #8:

Online Casino Platform: DublinBet (Fitz table)

B131211311132

B71314211

B51121

If stop win/loss rule used, left with score of -5

Lowest Score = -10

Highest Score = 0

Hands = 50

Bets = 48

Wins = 23

[ECD]

Good information-- thanks for sharing. I went through your first shoe in detail and can confirm all plays agree with my understanding of the rules.

For 100+ shoes that is not an encouraging result. from my work with it so far, I also agree U2Hi could use some improvements. There are some pretty common shoe starts that it does not do well against. I see you have a couple shoes like that in your post.

what I have found is that you need some ZZ patterns (the longer the better) or some very long straight runs. If you have one of those, you will win the shoe. Absent those, it is likely you will eventually hit the stop loss. And if you have some 3iars, especially back to back or the common 31313 variety, it is a quick death march to -5. Look at the first shoe -- you have a 4zz, a 5zz and a 6zz. Of course you cruise to the win target.

We will have to see how it goes with more testing at a variety of casinos.

[Keith Smith]

Sounds like you played pretty close to even for 103 shoes and from what you explain are NOR shoes so predictable and favoring patterns it loses to. 53 units up over 100 shoes is even. I'd leave it go and test|play some more there. The only option would be if we recognize them as NOR shoes or favoring OTB4l then suspend the low side rule or bet repeats after 1s instead of opposites, but the rub would be for me anyway not if you have a low 1s or repeats but if you suspect the game is non random favoring repeats. My logic would be in random it may be random occurrence of this and subject to normalize, but if you suspect assignable cause for the repeats then change the rules to fit the cause.

[kit walker]

Keith, whether the shoes were played using NOR or not, they are still shoes that were dealt by multiple online live dealer casinos within the last month. And ultimately if I had the system last month, that would be the results.

Playing purely mechanically as stated by Ellis in the sales pitch resulted in the above.

You can play it anytime anywhere in any Country. The cards don't know or care what country they are in.

This system doesn't care what strategy the casino is using.

It takes on ALL casino strategies nomatter the Country.

Including ON LINE casinos as long as you are playing LIVE games on line so you KNOW they aren't cheating.

DO NOT trust random generator on line casinos.

I only deal with live dealer tables for online casinos and brick and mortar casinos. So this is not an issue.

This 2Hi system looks at every shoe as producing TWO things: Runs and Garbage.

When you think about it, every shoe ever dealt, at any point within the shoe, it is producing one of two things:

Runs of any kind or Garbage. That's all she wrote.

So our 2Hi system is designed to beat two things:

Runs of any kind and Garbage of any kind.

U2Hi is PURELY 100% mechanical.

Just show up and bet when the system tells you to bet, which side to bet it on and how much to bet.

So my question is how much testing was done with real shoes that were dealt at either an online live dealer casino or a brick and mortar casino? Could any of the testers post their findings on the system?

If you would like we can screen share and play a few shoes at an online live dealer casino? And we can see if we get the same results.

Either way, I will wait for the manual and video from the seminar this weekend at Vegas to see how things pan out.

[cashout]

Hi Way2fast,

What if we do a SAP count and wait until the 15-20th play to make sure

that the culprit is the least common event then strike it? Maybe that would

avoid just blindly going in and playing from game start. I know a shoe can

turn at anytime but at least we can safely say there is no culprits at this time

lets jump in. I am still trying to figure all this out myself so I make sure

I am doing things the right way. I believe the BIGGEST mistake someone can

make is thinking you are doing things right when you are doing it wrong because

you were misinterpreting the instructions.

P.S. Keith I sent you a pm regarding tomorrow seminar if you can

take a look at your messages.. Thanks

[ECD]

Hi Way2fast,

What if we do a SAP count and wait until the 15-20th play to make sure

that the culprit is the least common event then strike it? Maybe that would

avoid just blindly going in and playing from game start. I know a shoe can

turn at anytime but at least we can safely say there is no culprits at this time

lets jump in. I am still trying to figure all this out myself so I make sure

I am doing things the right way. I believe the BIGGEST mistake someone can

make is thinking you are doing things right when you are doing it wrong because

you were misinterpreting the instructions.

P.S. Keith I sent you a pm regarding tomorrow seminar if you can

take a look at your messages.. Thanks

I'm just not sure. You might avoid some problem shoe starts that otherwise would have hit your stop loss, but you also might miss he best part of the shoe. SAP is a great tool, but remember it is nothing more than a count of the event patterns and doesn't tell you much more that what you can already see in the shoe. But I hear what you are saying -- if you knew for example that 3s would be MC, it would be a good shoe to skip playing (or at least not use U2Hi).

I wonder if there is something that can be done with the progressions, or when to bet the high vs. low side, which would improve the performance in the so called "garbage" sections, without taking too much away from the very strong performance U2Hi delivers in the long ZZs and straight runs.

[ztomsk]

I got this mainly to support BTC and to stay with the forum. My game isn't 100% where it needs to be or where I want it to be yet and you learn something from everything on here.

Aside from the very beginning - the way I see it (unless I misconstrued the rules) - another simpler way to look at this would be to flat bet 1 unit against 1iar and 2iar. But bet 2 units on anything past 3 or more straight or ZZ runs.

The system is cool and easy to do but I seem to be breaking even (short amount of testing I admit). I do see potential though. I don't really see any point in trying to change it drastically... because it can get really out of hand. I think when to bet high side vs low side might be the best to try to nail down. It's tough because you can be out of the shoe a winner or loser quickly.

Maybe there will be some discoveries after the seminar.

Edited March 14, 2015 by ztomsk

[Guest]

First 0f all, a very excellent post and yes you are thinking correctly.

So far you have only received tester rules meant for our testers.

Correct, when we test we play every shoe the same way regardless of the shoe at hand.

A half a unit per shoe average is actually a very good test result.

Very high stakes players have often said to me

"Give me a system that can guarantee ONE unit per shoe and I'll pay you a million dollars."

We test that way BUT we don't PLAY casinos that way.

As I've said a million times: We never decide what we are going to play before we get to the casino and see what we are up against.

Sure, we can always start with U2Hi.

But we had to make something the culprit and the choice was 2s or 3s.

I chose 3s since they occur half as often as 3s.

Never the less high 3s occur in HALF of all shoes

So in about half of all U2Hi shoes we need to react to high 3s.

So OK, how?

Hi 3s come in only 3 possible ways:

Hi 3s with high 1's = TB4L

Hi 3s with high 2s = OTB4L

High 3 or mores = Repeats Simply bet repeats and use an aggressive prog like U1D2 BECAUSE you are in a very good situation.

That is how we PLAY vs how we TEST.

Any player who can learn to react correctly to hi 3s playing U2Hi can win very close to 100% of his shoes with good cash mgt.

So my advice is first learn how to identify high 3s, next how to react.

Once you can do that proficiently and you prove that to yourself in casino -

You need to be considering larger units.

[kit walker]

Ellis, I do understand what you saying. And yes, the sales thread states that it doesn't do well against 3s. It also states that the player decides nothing and that the system tells the player exactly what to do. In the tester version of the rules, there is nothing that tells the player when to stop betting because of Hi 3s. If the player has no hard rule for how to handle Hi 3s (i.e. stop betting and maybe switch to something more favorable) then the system is not mechanical.

If the system gave 1.5+ units per shoe on average I would have been happy. 0.5 unit per shoe is extremely low and can slide either way - especially if you land in a few shoes that start with a 1,3,X combo and you are playing from them at play 3. That shoe combo will send you to -5 every time and you cannot react to it unless you wait it out to see if the 2 goes to a 3, or the 3 goes to a 4. Or you wait until you have more shoe history before starting.

I hope you guys enjoy Vegas! I look forward to hearing about the experiences from it.

[brad01]

Dont quite understand the ins and outs of the high side rule but so far im not winning a lot of bets that way. Maybe makes sense to stick to low side all the way surely if not winning high side bets?

[brad01]

Could the answer to the 3's be simply change the rules to bet the high side after 3 B's or 3 P's in a row ?

Betting the high side after 2 P's or 2 B's means we switch sides after 2 iar

If we just change that to 3 iar we will win off 3's but lose off 2 iar's

That's not good as I'm sure Ellis said that 1's and 2's are most likely so the original rules take advantage of the most common events and by changing it to the 3's we miss out on winning the 2's so you have to be careful; and know what you are doing

If 2's and 3's are about equal we could alternate the rule every time it comes up.

With a small win target and small stop loss all we need to do is break even through the weak points and we should get there?

I still think so far the simplicity of the this system and the small win goal / stop loss makes it an easy way to win more than you lose and that's all we could hope for?

[cookie0410]

After examining the initial rules provided, I am seeking confirmation that the following shoes are played correctly. All shoes were played beyond the stop win / loss rules. Shorthand notation is provided for the entire shoe that was recorded.

This is a small sample (8) of 103 recent real live shoes that I have recorded (and bet on using NOR) from three online casino platforms in the past month. None of the shoes were randomly generated.

If I was to play the U2Hi system (with the stop win / loss rules) over the past month on those 103 shoes, I would have won 51 (49.5%) and lost 52 (51.5%) of those shoes. I would have made a profit of 53 units. This makes the average unit return per shoe to be 0.5 units or 1.04 units per winning shoe. This is massively below the ~6 units advertised.

I think the success rate could be improved if the initial hands were reviewed for unfavorable patterns, or wait for a choppy start before jumping in.

The headers in the screenshots for each shoe are as follows:

Hand = Hand Number

P = Player Bet / Result

B = Banker Bet / Result

Score = Score

PrP = OvR Net Bet Progression for player bets (figures in blue = opposite, red = repeat) - these should be exactly like the examples provided by Keith, Ellis & co.

PrB = OvR Net Bet Progression for banker bets (figures in blue = opposite, red = repeat) - these should be exactly like the examples provided by Keith, Ellis & co.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kit out of all shoes you recorded what was the highest and lowest score you achieved?

[kit walker]

Without taking the stop win and loss factors into account, the lowest and highest scores at any point of the shoes were -31 and 28. And the lowest and highest scores at the end of the shoes were: -31 and 23.

[trbfla]

Brad I agree with you if we switch, we end up losing to 2iar which occurs more often, or at least often enough. Perhaps the answer may lie within the progression. Perhaps we also need a third bet and perhaps a larger stop loss.

[BacManiac]

is it possible to keep the 1s,2s, 3s and make longer trends(4 or 5+) the bad guy? Since they show up less often than the others?

[BronxAl]

I'm just not sure. You might avoid some problem shoe starts that otherwise would have hit your stop loss, but you also might miss he best part of the shoe. SAP is a great tool, but remember it is nothing more than a count of the event patterns and doesn't tell you much more that what you can already see in the shoe. But I hear what you are saying -- if you knew for example that 3s would be MC, it would be a good shoe to skip playing (or at least not use U2Hi).

I wonder if there is something that can be done with the progressions, or when to bet the high vs. low side, which would improve the performance in the so called "garbage" sections, without taking too much away from the very strong performance U2Hi delivers in the long ZZs and straight runs.

How about when you see Two (2) Repeats in a Row. Start betting OTB4L or TB4L, until 2 loses. Then, resume 2 Hi Net Betting?

[cookie0410]

I have tested over 30 shoes now with this system, when my scanner returns i will post here.

My feedback is similar to Kits. It loses to many 1,2,and 3,s to be successful long term.

I feel this has to change for it to be a winning system.

There is to many units lost to these even if you had a bigger stop loss.

Hopefully Ellis figures out a way to keep what is successful in the system (long runs,zz runs ) and improves the 1,2 and 3 issue. Then we have ourself something special.

I also see logic in at times switching to TB4L. But then alot of guesswork comes in to the system which is not what we want either.

[cashout]

Hi FrontAl,

I was thinking what about instead of betting opposites versus repeats we bet TB4L and OTB4L and only

switch to after 2 loses in a row. The simple system does work on any shoe but were the problem lies is the switching

back and forth right after each other and being tied into a progression. Maybe if we use those two instead of OvR it may

have better results.. Thanks