Users ECD Posted January 18, 2017 Users Report Posted January 18, 2017 Ellis is joining the ranks of the "Elite" Baccarat scammers... This is crap... hvacjohn, you have already been contacted with instructions. vortex888, you will be contacted shortly. The Final Word and MvD are separate manuals.. I have also decided to introduce a third manual “Net Betting” since Las Vegas has left itself highly susceptible to this strategy. General ordering instructions will be added to this So...Not satisfied with not completing "The Final Word" two years after accepting prepaid orders...and then introducing "untested" MvD at an extra cost...He is now going to charge for a third Manual ...The gall of the man defies belief What's he gonna call this one?..."The Final, Final Word"...seriously...anyone who gets taken in by this shit deserves to lose their money. The hardest part for me is to witness someone who I once respected more than perhaps I should have, descend into the gutter. This brings me no joy...just anger tinged with a great deal of sadness. Let this be an added warning to you guys...There is no easy way. You can beat this game, but it takes hard work and time and you never stop learning and improving. There are people on here that know what they are talking about, more than eager to help...but the buck stops with you. It also saddens me to see that we have experts like Kevin...John...PJ...CT...Vinnie...Wolfat...not to mention the 4th year Apprentices...Brad... etc all too willing to provide the necessary insights in how to beat this game...and way too few people taking advantage of their expertise. Kevin's latest attempt to bring Players up to speed is a classic example. He doesn't need this shit...He gladly gives up his time and yet the response is minimal. Pando If it's the Holy Grail that you want to achieve without putting in the hard yards...Then the "Forum that cannot be named" might be your best bet...but ...READ MY LIPS...YOU WILL GET SCAMMED. It's now a Bullshit Forum for "would be's that never will be." The best players have mostly been banned for telling the truth or have left voluntarily out of frustration. Apart from Ellis (who seems to have lost the plot) there isn't a single member on that Forum that I would bother to feed...The blind leading the blind...Dumbarse Baccarat failures clinging onto Ellis's skirts just hoping for a condescending pat on the head from "The Great Man" And as for his second in command...Dean...that pathetic low life gutter swill whose main aim in life is to censor all comments on the Forum before they are posted... apart from inflating success rates of the various systems...my 64 year old XXXXXXXX on a stinking hot Aussie Summer Day smells less than the Bullshit spewing from his mouth. He knows as much about Baccarat as I do about crochet ( more likely...LESS) He talks himself up like his own shit doesn't smell. I kid you not...I make more in an hour of serious play on the tables than that fuckarse doling out advice would make in a year...Dumbarse...and he banned me for telling the truth...LMFAO Just as a matter of interest...remember how Ellis used to smash us all for Flat Betting...we were all idiots...take a look at this... Now, I have often said: “Any shoe you win flat betting, you win more with a progression.” But there is one case where that is NOT true – when your system has a tendency to lose hands in a row – and MvD DOES lose more hands in a row than any other system but it still wins more hands than it loses – by far! I’ve seen MvD lose 6 hands in a row several times but I’ve also seen MvD win 12 hands in a row. A progression bettor can overcome 6 losses iar (in a row) especially if after losing his prog, he waits for a win to restart. But it is still disastrous. For a flat bettor, losing 6 hands in a row is a minor inconvenience – he’s still going to win the shoe especially with wayner’s 2 loss rule. The flat Bettor is at a disadvantage IF you look at it in terms of units won. BUT you can’t look at it that way because the flat better can afford a unit 4 times what the progression bettor can afford. The flat bettor has two critical advantages over the progressive bettor. 1.) He can afford to play much larger units with the same bank roll. 2.) He can raise that unit much faster. and then this... Let’s look at another factor – Comfort Level The Progressive bettor is what I call a white knuckle player. While he makes a lot of units fast, he knows that sooner or later he is going to have to play out his entire progression. I highly recommend the 345 BECAUSE you can afford to lose your entire progression more times than any other progression and still win the shoe. Now you are playing VERY white knuckle! Then we have our Flat Bettor, calmly sitting there comfortable in his record 57% hit rate, taking no risks, drinking his scotch rocks, bored half stiff. So he loses 2 or 3 units now and then – Big Whip. And when he gets to ten units in the next denomination he can double his unit with no fear. At the end of the day….. Are you catching my drift? err...Haven't we all been saying the same thing for yonks Don't mind me...I'm just a little frustrated at the gullibility of the "terminally stupid" continually swallowing the crap on CFC and throwing away good money after bad and even more frustrated at the lack of response to people like Kevin on here who just want to help. And "NO"...I haven't been drinking... but I might start soon... LOL PS: Memo to Dean...I've got news for you "Retard"...if all comments are censored by you prior to posting...then it's not a Forum...it's a xxxx BLOG. The next question is of course...if all comments have to be censored..."WHATTHE xxxx ARE YOU SCARED OF"? 1 Quote
Pando Posted January 18, 2017 Report Posted January 18, 2017 Hi Oz I see my name in there. Have I done (or not done) something I should have Pando Quote
Users ECD Posted January 18, 2017 Author Users Report Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Pando said: Hi Oz I see my name in there. Have I done (or not done) something I should have Pando NAH...You are one of the "Good guys" trying to pass on your knowledge...somehow your name which was posted right after Brad's got placed at the end when I edited it. Edited January 18, 2017 by ECD Quote
Pando Posted January 18, 2017 Report Posted January 18, 2017 Thanks Oz I gladly do it just as you do Pando Quote
trbfla Posted January 18, 2017 Report Posted January 18, 2017 Oz thank you for your post. You are spot on. let me just say that I have personally spoken to most everyone on your list and you are correct-they all have been helpful, eager to discuss my questions, given freely of their time and never asked for a cent-other than to be respected. We all should be grateful to have these members willing to impart their knowledge as we go through our own hard yards. 2 Quote I yell "winner winner chicken dinner on all naturals"
Fedda Posted January 18, 2017 Report Posted January 18, 2017 I can only speak for my self, but one thing that i have learned is; Speak when you have something meaningful to say about the subject, or shut the hell up. In this case about the subject on how to win, i do not have anything to contribute with. I love to read everything thats being written here. I wish i was smarter about the game and could contribute. Quote
Users ECD Posted January 18, 2017 Author Users Report Posted January 18, 2017 I see The PC Police have censored my post...What are you gonna do next Keith?...Ban me?...Tell someone who cares...LMFAO Quote
Users ECD Posted January 19, 2017 Author Users Report Posted January 19, 2017 Just one other thing Keith...I'm assuming that as you are likely to be hitting me with the "BAN" stick, that considering I paid for "LIFETIME" membership several years ago that my "cheque" will be in the mail...LOL Like that is going to happen... We will soon see if you majored in the "Ellis Davis" school of ethics... Quote
Keith Smith Posted January 19, 2017 Report Posted January 19, 2017 ARe you for real? I sent you a request not to use over the top profanity in a post. I mentioned to you that my son reads the forum. I am sure while none say are offended by your choice of words also. I did not censor your post I tried to draw a line of your use of unnecessary profanity. I send you a private message ask you nicely and now you attack me in this manner What is it you want me to do. I am asking you to be respectful on the forum and this seems like a reasonable request not use profanity that may offend people. If you cannot post with thoughtful choice of words then please don't. Quote
Users ECD Posted January 19, 2017 Author Users Report Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Keith Smith said: ARe you for real? I sent you a request not to use over the top profanity in a post. I mentioned to you that my son reads the forum. I am sure while none say are offended by your choice of words also. I did not censor your post I tried to draw a line of your use of unnecessary profanity. I send you a private message ask you nicely and now you attack me in this manner What is it you want me to do. I am asking you to be respectful on the forum and this seems like a reasonable request not use profanity that may offend people. If you cannot post with thoughtful choice of words then please don't. 3 Fine then...I won't bother...Problem solved for both of us. BTW: You have a prob with your son reading every day expletives but no prob with him reading a Gambling Forum?...To each his own.... Edited January 19, 2017 by ECD Quote
Users brad01 Posted January 22, 2017 Users Report Posted January 22, 2017 The sad thing is the frustration and anger caused by CasinoClub has spilled over onto this forum. Often happens when people get their adrenaline going about something they are passionate about. Hopefully we can all take a step back and not let the rubbish from that forum spill onto here Oz and Keith you are 2 guys I highly respect in the baccarat / gambling world who have both been a big part of how far I have come. Please lets work this out, Oz take your medication, have a few drinks etc don't leave the forum because of Ellis. You cant help everyone there are some people that are just gonna believe his BS no matter what you do. He chose his path and like you I just cant understand it. Mind you the other day I read a discussion on gamblers glen from 2008 and it pretty much sums up Ellis. 1 Quote
Users brad01 Posted January 22, 2017 Users Report Posted January 22, 2017 Never have I seen such a compilation of false, misleading and amateurish Bac information in one place. I am compelled to respond even though your board won't let me log in under the name and pass word you emailed to me. My name is E. Clifton Davis. That is the name I was born with in 1940. I am a retired Math Professor from a major University with a clinically evaluated 160 IQ. I am degreed in Engineering, Architecture and Business. I put the first Baccarat system ever to pen 20 years ago. It did $660,000 in sales in the fisrt three weeks. I've written a dozen more since. My Bac books have far outsold all other Bac books in the world put together. The only thing in gaming to outsell my Bac books is my BJ books, 8000 to date. I wrote NBJ (New Blackjack), WCB (World Class Blackjack) and In Search Of (the winning game). The only winning BJ players in the world today are my players taugt by me. I consider a winning player one who is ahead at the end of a year after all taxes and expenses. I have the only professional players in the world. I consider a professional player as one who plays full time for a living with no other source of income. I placed second in the million dollar World Championship Of Baccarat at Caesars'. While I was high money winner, one of my 4 remaining opponents hit a triple tie in the last 3 plays of the tournament and edged me out. I should have bet ties right along with him but alas... I put my money where my mouth is. I have performed countless public casino exhibitions all over the U.S. both in Baccarat and BJ W/O ever losing a single one. The most memorable were Taj 1 and 2, where in both instances I won exactly $10,000 in less than a half hour W/O ever betting more than $200 in head to head high stakes pit BJ play in front of hundreds of invited spectators. I know of no other instructor who has ever performed a single one save Jerry Patterson but he lost. I played NBJ full time in A.C. for three years W/O a single losing day - something I could teach any of you to do. It's not nearly as difficult as you think. When any of you can perform these simple feats, THEN, I will listen to your criticisms but until then please excuse me while I yawn. Yes, I am very successful in the business end of gambling instruction. Probably far more than you realize. Probably more than all other instructors put together. But consider why that is. Players drift from instructor to instructor until they get to me. The buck stops here. Thousands of counters quit counting to play NBJ but no NBJ player ever took up counting. It's the same in Bac. Players that get here stay here. But I don't apologize for my business successes. Success doesn't make me wrong any more than working for free makes you right. Much more to the contrary methinks. We did not abandon The Twister. We simply finished perfecting it. We would not abandon a winning system. For instance Wolfat, here, whom I have never met, recently completed his fifth winning trip with Twister playing in Italy, Monte Carlo and Atlantic City. Paid for his lifetime membership 20 times over. Now we are completing the final perfections to Universal SAP. No one has lost with it in a casino. It is an extremely clever system with no losing pattern, unlike ALL other systems. SAP has nothing to do with changing your prog as announced here. It has to do with losing to the least common event. When the least common event changes the system automatically changes to the new least common event. Think about it! You've got to lose to something! Wouldn't you best lose to the least common event and win to the most common events. THAT is what SAP does. Ridicule it if you must but that won't stop it from winning. Nothing will. The casinos can't hit a moving target. Baccarat isn't about math or patterns or progressions. Baccarat is about cheating. Casino cheating in Baccarat is simple to prove. Look, commission is 1.25% of the money bet on average. O.K its 5% of the money bet on a Bank win. On avg you bet on Bank half the time and win half of those bets. So commission is 5/4 = 1.25% of the total money bet. That's not trick math. Its common ordinary straight 4th grade math. So their Baccarat profits should be 1.25% of the money bet. But its not is it. Casinos must, by law, publish their profits anually to the public. One of the places they do this is right on their own TV specials. They publish a profit of 16%. On TV THEY call it 16% of the money bet. Some argue that no, its 16% of the drop like it used to be years ago. It doesn't matter. The two totals are not that different esp when you consider that many people buy in huge since that is the number one comp factor. But look at what 16% of the money bet means: take an aggressive ten dollar player than averages $20 a play. His commission will average 1.25% of 1440 or $18. Sound about right? At 14.75% (16 - 1.25)of the money bet, his average loss will be $212. Sound about right? Well it does to me and I've played more Bac than all of you put together. So the question is: How did the casino profits get from $18 to $18+$212? Where does this extra $212 come from? Poor players? How do you play poorly in a 50 - 50 game? That's like playing poorly in a coin toss. Can't be done! There's only one way. They cheat. I'm not talking slight of hand here. God knows they do enough of that - like the chip pile break down trick at Foxwood which I've seen gain the casino an extra $70,000in a few shoes. I'm not talking about the dealer dealing to his right hand and snatching two cards for Player and Bank and making whichever side win that he wants as I have caught them red handed doing at Turning Stone. All that is bad enough. That's why we teach casino cheating here. But that only accounts for a very small part of the 16%. I'm talking about biasing the shoe through shuffle control, against the majority of the players. That's not cheating? Try it in a saturday night Poker game! That is where the extra 14.75% profits comes from. And thank God! or more accurately, the casinos. BECAUSE if they didn't cheat it would be exactly like one of you said. It would be impossible to win. That's what I teach, how to use the casino's own cheating against them. Don't believe any of it. Well its all public record. You aren't really naive enough to think that casinos could survive on 1.25%, are you? No corporation does. If so, stay away from casinos. You're too dumb to play. Just one other thing while I have your undivided attention. Guys, haven't you ever heard of the United States copyright laws? Granted, college profs get extra mandatory training in the copyright laws because it is illegal to disseminate work done by others but you guys must have at least heard of them. What you are doing here is patently illegal and the federal courts are having a field day right now with ignorant people disseminating copied CD's. Look, I've already sued in Federal court very successfully and I know the ropes and I have an excellent copyright lawyer who formally copyrights ALL my work. You guys are sitting ducks and more than enough proof exists right here in black and white on your website. I really don't want to sue you guys. I got more lucrative things to do. But if you persist..... Quote
Users brad01 Posted January 22, 2017 Users Report Posted January 22, 2017 With all those degrees, all that experience and that high IQ, Ellis still doesn't know the difference between the Vig and the Hold. Incredibly, he also hasn't figured out the basic math that shows how a 1.25% Vig easilty turns into a 16% Hold, which is the reported figure that he keeps talking about as proof of Casino "Orchestration". The 16% is the percentage of buy-in that the Casino's keep, on average, for that particular reporting time/place. It's very simple - punters buy in with an amount, each time they play through their buy-in they will (over the long run) lose the vig percentage of the buy-in. If they play only Player/Bank the average vig is about 1.25%. If they also bet Ties (14.36% vig) the average vig will be higher. Each time a person plays through their original buy-in they will lose the average vig over the long run. If a person bets no ties and played through their buy-in 12.8 times they would lose 16%. If they played only ties and played through their buy-in 1.1 times they would lose 16% (long term). In addition, people who lose their buy-in and then walk, forfeit 100%. It is EASY to see, with plain and simple math, how the casinos profit an average of 16% with the relatively small vig in Baccarat. NO Cheating or Orchestration is required. As has been pointed out here, it is in fact in the Casino's Best Interest to keep the game as random as possible. Any orchistration or deliberate bias would be quickly identified and exploited to their detriment. Not to mention the legal and public trust consequences of getting caught doing such a thing. Ellis has stated in his own forum that no casino orchestration can beat the new SAP system, the only thing that could beat it is a random game. He also stated that no one has ever lost with the SAP... Just like he claimed that the Twister won 95% of shoes. Same Ole Same Ole. But Ellis is a great salesman. Who else could convince people to fork over a thousand dollars, plus $500/yr for the privilege of designing new systems for him that he then sells for his exclusive profit. He brags about how much money he's made selling his systems, no about how much he's made using them. Still, he has some dedicated and hard working people on his private forums trying endlessly to find something that works, and they have come up with some good and interesting ideas. Ellis's fees are really just for the right to participate in that group effort in the hope that eventually someone there will come up with a method that works. Whether or not his steep membership price is worth it is everyone's own decision. Ellis should realize however, that relentless hysteria about casino orchestration, etc., while serving as a convenient excuse for prior system failures, diminishes his credibility and actually costs him more sales than it produces. 3 Quote
Users brad01 Posted January 22, 2017 Users Report Posted January 22, 2017 For the record I didn't write the above I pasted it from gamblers glen. i did however think it was pretty spot on Quote
Plus One Posted January 22, 2017 Report Posted January 22, 2017 System seeker or degenerate gambler? Quote
Keith Smith Posted January 22, 2017 Report Posted January 22, 2017 17 hours ago, brad01 said: Never have I seen such a compilation of false, misleading and amateurish Bac information in one place. I am compelled to respond even though your board won't let me log in under the name and pass word you emailed to me. My name is E. Clifton Davis. That is the name I was born with in 1940. I am a retired Math Professor from a major University with a clinically evaluated 160 IQ. I am degreed in Engineering, Architecture and Business. I have never confirmed three Degrees but he did teach at the college level when I first meet Ellis. Of course you can teach in college without any degree if they hire you. I honestly forget the name of the University where he was teaching. I put the first Baccarat system ever to pen 20 years ago. It did $660,000 in sales in the first three weeks. It was closer to $100,000 from what he told me of course it sold for $1500 dollars. Many demanded returns to be honest. To his credit he did play the system in the casino and but it was based on a Fib. We did have a huge win at Turning Stone when he first sold it. I know Charlie was playing with us and at that time we cashed well over 3K in one hour session playing 10 buck units. Turning Stone had just opened and they handed us tickets to go to the International Boxing hall of fame. I've written a dozen more since. My Bac books have far outsold all other Bac books in the world put together. Perhaps but certainly has not shared them here. Most of what is published in posts and books were a compilation of the collective insights of the group as a whole while he has taken credit for it. Of course provoked thought, but one would be remiss if you take credit for the insightful thought and analysis of others contributions to many approaches. The only thing in gaming to outsell my Bac books is my BJ books, 8000 to date. I wrote NBJ (New Blackjack), WCB (World Class Blackjack) and In Search Of (the winning game). The only winning BJ players in the world today are my players taugt by me. I consider a winning player one who is ahead at the end of a year after all taxes and expenses. I have the only professional players in the world. I consider a professional player as one who plays full time for a living with no other source of income. Ellis is 5 steps removed from reality with those statements. I placed second in the million dollar World Championship Of Baccarat at Caesars'. While I was high money winner, one of my 4 remaining opponents hit a triple tie in the last 3 plays of the tournament and edged me out. I should have bet ties right along with him but alas... Ellis sold shares at $1000 a piece to buy a piece of his winnings should he win. You need $14000 I remember to play. I forget how many he sold but he had the 10K in fee to enter which we paid. How do I know this the money was sent to me and i hand delivered it to Ceasars to enter him. 10K entry fee and 2k to play with your chips real money. You could rebuy into the consolation round with the other 2K if you got knocked out in the first round. On the final hand of the last 1st round he had 600 left. He bet it on a secret bet on tie. Tie hit. They disallowed the bet and gave back the 600 Dollars because he did not make a minimum bet on banker or player also. SO effectively he was knock out of the final round with no money. I.... ME ONLY ME.... went to the casino control commission and complained that he bet tie but since you were playing with real money and it was not clear in the rules you must pay the bet not simply give it back, my argument that if he lost they would have taken the money and not cared whether they bet banker or player. They agree and had Caesars pay the bet. Caesars agreed. We now had the $5400. This was all after the fact, we were knocked out of the first round ( wasn't enough any way to advance but we got the money from the bet) We entered the consolation round and he won his table advancing to the second round. I honestly forget how much money we had in the second round but the facts are we got knocked out 14th or so. We watched the final table it was won by a fellow from Europe who got 750k and 2nd by a fellow from, if i remember from South Africa who won 100K. If i recall we had a bank of about 10k left. We went to Bally's the next day played $100 a hand of the system he was using in the tournament, won back most all the money to pay the people who invested let $40 a person So each person got $960 dollars back. He was right about remembering all the ties in the tournament. I put my money where my mouth is. I have performed countless public casino exhibitions all over the U.S. both in Baccarat and BJ W/O ever losing a single one. The most memorable were Taj 1 and 2, where in both instances I won exactly $10,000 in less than a half hour W/O ever betting more than $200 in head to head high stakes pit BJ play in front of hundreds of invited spectators. I know of no other instructor who has ever performed a single one save Jerry Patterson but he lost. Never lost in exhibitions I have seen him loss countless times when his players were watching. It was $8000 at the Taj as I remember Jerry Patterson asking how much are the orange chips worth. 30 minutes no I don't think so. I played NBJ full time in A.C. for three years W/O a single losing day - something I could teach any of you to do. It's not nearly as difficult as you think. That is a ridiculous statement again many have seen him lose and lose big. When any of you can perform these simple feats, THEN, I will listen to your criticisms but until then please excuse me while I yawn. Yes, I am very successful in the business end of gambling instruction. Probably far more than you realize. Probably more than all other instructors put together. But consider why that is. Players drift from instructor to instructor until they get to me. The buck stops here. Thousands of counters quit counting to play NBJ but no NBJ player ever took up counting. It's the same in Bac. Players that get here stay here. But I don't apologize for my business successes. Success doesn't make me wrong any more than working for free makes you right. Much more to the contrary methinks. We did not abandon The Twister. We simply finished perfecting it. We would not abandon a winning system. For instance Wolfat, here, whom I have never met, recently completed his fifth winning trip with Twister playing in Italy, Monte Carlo and Atlantic City. Paid for his lifetime membership 20 times over. Ask Andre I guess. Ellis met Andre in Vegas at the Paris didn't he. I was so ill I could not attend and stayed in my room. As for copy right yes if you fix it in form and duplicate the same words yes, but a system nope sorry you can talk about any system and how it works all you want. 1. Ideas, Methods, or Systems Ideas, methods, and systems are not covered by copyright protection. According to the US Copyright Office, Circular 2, this covers quite a few things including making, or building things; scientific or technical methods or discoveries; business operations or procedures; mathematical principles; formulas, algorithms; or any other concept, process, or method of operation. In other words, that great idea you told your friend about the other day cannot be protected by copyright in and of itself, but if you write that great idea down, the words can be protected. K 2 Quote
Users brad01 Posted January 22, 2017 Users Report Posted January 22, 2017 Thanks for that Keith a good history lesson Quote
Baccarat Hall of Fame Member kachatz1 Posted February 2, 2017 Baccarat Hall of Fame Member Report Posted February 2, 2017 (edited) Yikes. Good thing he did not get on that flight to Jonestown, but instead chose to head to the ( fill in the blank) casino, to cap off his 20 year run of never having a losing day there... ( not sure if it was Grape of Cherry, but it's all about the Kool-Aid...) " Kool- Aid, Kool -Aid, tastes great. - wish I had some, can't wait! " ( famous ad slogan, commercials, etc)...hmmmmmmn, sounds like??? Edited February 2, 2017 by kachatz1 Quote
trbfla Posted March 11, 2017 Report Posted March 11, 2017 Kevin it was grape for sure. Grape kool-aid slushy too. I too, like many others, have opinions, thoughts, and general finger movements to describe some claims and treatment from this self proclaimed guru of casinos-I personally love how he lays testimony to others success as if he was the absolute reason for said success-however if it weren't for his claims and me joining I would have never met the life long friends I did here so I am thankful for that at least. (Insert toy story song you gotta friend in me) 1 Quote I yell "winner winner chicken dinner on all naturals"
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