Wendel

OTBLM2 = otbl4 Mode 2 (if that helps ), People keep adding unnecessary acronyms

In Baccarat, the MOST important part of the process is placing your chip(s) in the correct box. Its no more complicated than that.

I understand that you are playing to win i unit per shoe I meant to ask what your goal is in total units @ 1 per shoe, but I think I am not going to get a straight answer, so let's forget it..

Good Luck with that. How many units do you need to win ?

Whenever I hear sporadic1's , I start thinking OTBL4, but if they of they are mostly on 1 side. I start wondering about SS or F2. By the time I see it is usually too late. LC and MC only have to work until you reach a stop win and have a nice profit. I think that playing a whole shoe and coming out ahead has become a pipe dream. If I am still playing at the end of a shoe it probably means that I am losing . I also think that NOR is designed to get you to the "sweet spot" in the shoe and get you out before the "sweet spot" dissipates. Whether it always succeeds in this is a whole other story.

Ellis seemed to feel that the "shoe at hand" after the card prep would usually be less streaky and more suitable for OTBL4 play. The games would get increasingly streakier as they were reshuffled and reused. Ellis only played in B&M casinos though. I haven't played enough "later" games to be able to offer a personal opinion. i am not sure if current shuffling technology can alter the choppy to streaky progression.

Try sending a private message to Keith Smith or Pompano Mike, If their e-mail addresses are on their profiles, you could try sending one or the other an e-mail.

Hi Try, I am using a 1,2, 1 progression (with a few tweaks ) or flatbetting. For me , part of the motivation to use the more conservative prog was to be able to withstand losing a 3iar and continue, so I kept the -8 stoploss recommended in the NOR manual, and the other money management suggestions aimed at preserving your wins. On the other hand , if you have lots of tables to choose from -6 may be more suitable.

Please explain how you calculate your 80% won rate. thanks

I work a little better with Baccarat examples rather than abstract strings of wins and losses , I am not sure that I would even bet on coin flips. the 121 2 prog is meant to replace the 123 1 prog or 123 4 playing baccarat with the guidelines outlined in in the NOR Baccarat manual If this were baccarat you would have a zz run P B P B P B P B B P B and be placing all your bets on player WLWLWLWLWLLWL. I don't think that you would use the 123 1 or 123 4 prog here, so I don't think it is fair to expect a miracle from 121 2 , I am not sure that I would do this , but I might If I were playing strongside. after the second loss I am up 1 unit for the series using either prog. At this point I would try to decide if I want to continue betting player or switch to banker Am I playing mode 2 or mode 3 ? will the strong side switch to banker here ? But in the end I would be even for the series of bets. I have lost 4 units since my last win. Depending on other factors in the game, I might start a side count of -4 and start an up as you win prog on my next win to recover the -4. you are welcome, Brad.

Hi william, My normal stop loss is 8, but if I choose, I can bail out sooner. My normal stop win is 10. If i hit 10, I will make 1 more bet to get past 10, If I lose i quit with 9 If I win I will continue , but won't go below 10. I think there are some strategies in the NOR manual that address this. If I have made a comeback from -5 or -6 I will consider quitting with any positive result depending on how far into the shoe I am and other factors. If I become tired or uncomfortable for any reason I will consider leaving.with whatever profit I have. I usually have only 1 table and try to enter after 3 or 4 events at least , I usually want to be able to determine what system to play. This works similar to 3Em triggers . if i can see which system would be winning I will start with that system. if the shoe starts with a 4iar ZZ or ST , I will start betting on the run. and plan to play S40M1. I see some shoes that I can't figure out what is going on. I should pass these or wait. I see very few random shoes(suitable for MDB+) . I pretty well have to put MDB+ out of my mind in a biased shoe,because the MDB+ triggers will affect my judgement. Ideally , I will get to my stop win before the bias changes.

Hi William, I personally have stopped using the o/r count and use SAP high 1's and 2's to select S40, High 2's and 3's to select OTB4L. If you are going to use a negative progression , I would not go beyond a 123 4. If I don't see F or SS early i usually miss it. I usually play a 121 2 progression. this is very low risk and almost as effective as 123 4 . the 121 is up as you lose. if I win the 3rd bet (1 unit) I can optionally make a 2 unit bet to recover the loss of the first 2 bets . this can get you past more tough spots with less risk than a 123 4.... negative prog. I jave also found that quite often may losing 2 bets equal my winning 2 bets , leaving me with the result of my 1 bets , effectively flat betting.

HI William, Well, there you go. I thought that you did not care to play progs, so my intent was to demonstrate that NOR could win without the risks associated with using up as you lose progs. I think that up as you win progs also deserve some consideration. It is unfortunate that you don't have access to all the information in the premium forum. I hope that you find something that you are comfortable with and achieves your goals. wendel

Hi William, Ihope you don't mind my taking up your challenge to play this shoe with NOR. I have illustrated my play using Try's 4D analyzer. it works great ! Thanks Try I started the shoe at play 5 with S40 and switched to OTB4L after the 23 starting at play 6. for illustrative purposes I flatbet the entire shoe . In reality I would probably have made some 2 bets , but the bet placement would have been the same. my flatbet total was +8. I am attaching the printout in 2 PDF's. I hope this works WL 1 of 22.PDF WL 2 of 22.PDF

Good thought Try We should put "you can't win every shoe" in a prominent place on the "cheat sheet". I, for one need to be reminded time & again.

I have the same issue. I think it is a general problem as opposed to specific to me

Thanks trillion, I only mentioned it because I think in a MDB+ context , the 1 in 313 is part of a 3zz event the 11 in 3113 is part of a 4zz event we can certainly look at the 1's as events in Brad's context.

I understand what you are saying and agree, but I could have worded my question better so I will try again to clarify what we are saying a 313 is three events a 3113 is three events it doesn't really matter what the bookends are long as they are confirmed. and they can be anything but ones a 311 is confirmed 3 and the 11 is part of an unconfirmed event

is a three 111's in a row (111) 3 events or 1 event ?

HI Brad, I won 20 units on Friday afternoon , averaging 10 units per shoe, playing standard NOR. Took the rest of the weekend of to watch curling.. Wendel

I do a similar thing, copying the casino's marquee into a BTC format scorecard. If there is a lot to copy , I record the first part of the shoe in BTC shorthand (i.e. P1123....etc) up to the last 3 events or so, which are copied onto the scorecard. This way, I have the most current data on my scorecard and the complete shoe for reference. Then it is not very hard to calculate the current sap totals between hands.

Hi Zeckam, I wouldn't even bother with netbetting right now if I were you , unless you are playing something like 4D that specifically calls for net betting and has proper guidelines for its use in that application. Getting in and out of netbetting may be a real hassle. I think that netbetting is still a "work in progress" and NOR should serve you just as well for the time being, That being said, i guess there is no harm in tinkering with it and developing and testing your own parameters for its use. Wendel ndel

or, If you prefer to play s40, or your casino favors s40 look for the s40 sections in your practice shoes and start there. If you prefer Otb4L and your casino favors OTB4L look for OTB4l sections In the casino look for the game type you prefer.

Hi William, flat betting with NOR is not the easiest thing in the world to do and win at, I think that table selection, table entry and appropriate stop wins and stop losses might be the keys to doing this. I don't know what playing conditions you have . I.e. tables to select from and seats available so this observation may be mute. But, before you enter a table look at he marquee and determine in your mind which of the 3 nor approaches will start to win immediately. If you can't do that , move on to the next table and repeat. If you are practising from old score cards , try this .... scan them for sections that you know you can beat select a Nor approach and pretend that you entered the table there. Mind your stop wins and losses See if your results improve.