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All,

Well, today was the day. I figured it was now or never and I believe I've run enough live and test shoes and should feel reasonably comfortable to start play on a Green table.

Was feeling pretty confident when we rolled into the casino this afternoon. Not a big crowd as they weren't giving anything away but strangely there were two players at my $10 table. I cashed in for $500 like usual and when she went to give me my reds and greens, I asked for all green. Even the table manager looked at me differently! Very odd.

Anyway, the girl dealing was super fast. I could barely keep my scorecard up to date and she was "last calling" us out. I finally talked with the other two players and said, "she's killing us (actually them) with this fast game. Let's hold off until we all agree we're ready and then put the bets down. She's not going to deal until there's money on the table."

Amazingly we all agreed and it went well after that. The dealer would call "last call" and there would be nothing out. She was dead in the water. We all made our normal bets and it moved nicely.

But I digress.

Now that we have the table speed under control, it was back to playing. I came in late to my first shoe and it obliged me with a B6 with me running RD1. Came out +5 in the first short shoe! Woo-hoo!

All betting was done at 1,2,1,2,1,2,etc as in RD1 but with a stop after 3 losses and wait for a Skip Circle to win then restart at 1. I also kept the SAP running score in the center of the card for reference.

Shoe #2 started off nicely but it was falling apart in the third column and I should have gotten out, but stayed for some reason. Wound up +2 in that one. Very disappointed in my discipline in that one.

Well, the shoes weren't being all that kind to RD1 tonight but the 1's were slightly out of whack and I'm dieing to try my own version of OTB4L Skip so I gave it a try. I could always swing back into RD1 anywhere.

And of course, right on cue, the shoe immediately goes super Z. Thirteen one's right off the bat. However this fits right into my OTB4L plan. I hit nine of those 13 1's and pull in 15 units right off the bat. Of course I was very late to start pressing the bets on the wins and only got brave at hand 13 where it promptly lost hand 14. Oh well, I'll take it!! That shoe went very nice with very few one's after that and a lot of two and a few streaks to end up +26 in that shoe! My first "real" +20!

As I'm on a nicotine high from the other two players and feeling pretty good, I elect to move on past my usual three shoe stopping point.

Shoe #4 plays pretty much the same as #3 but without the giant ZZ run anywhere. +24 in that one!

Shoe #5 plays out again smoothly and winds up at +13. RD1 would have won in the last three shoes also.

By now I'm getting worn out. Non-stop play since I've been in here so I'll go for a "quick 10 units" and call it a night. Shoe #6 goes back to RD1, which I find very easy to play, and hits +11 at hand 31 and I am so outta there!

Tracked down the wife, ate the free late dinner (it was close to 10pm by now) and headed home.

I know it won't always go like this, but we can always hope!

Once again, my thanks to all of you who contribute to the "greater good" and allow us all to tweak and refine the methods of play to fit our own styles. So far, for me, OTB4L coupled with RD1 and SAP is just golden.

MVS

Shoe #1 (late entry)

B623112212

B11121

Shoe #2

B24323331

B161142311

B1123111311122

P13115321

Shoe #3

B11111111111121221

B782111

B3161122211

P2112122

Shoe #4

B32121461

P1322471

P12172334

Shoe #5

B13222121411

B32322521

P411225113

B321131

Shoe #6 (early exit)

P213211331111

P64x

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All, Well, today was the day. I figured it was now or never and I believe I've run enough live and test shoes and should feel reasonably comfortable to start play on a Green table. Was feeling pr

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Hi mistermmb

Check out post 22 in new members start here

I think this might answer your ques

Dom

Edited by Norm A

Norm A

FOLLOW THE SHOE

WHEN IN DOUBT WAIT IT OUT

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Nice Job!

How were you able to hit 9 of the 13 1's with OTB4L in shoe #3?

mistermb,

Well, I elected to start the shoe running "my modified version" of OTB4L. It plays like normal, but when it runs into a ZZ pattern, it jumps on it until it runs out. The same thing for a run/streak of 3. It's a conglomeration of OTB4L, RD1 and a touch of TB4L but it always falls back to OTB4L after a loss unless the SAP count is pointing with large numbers to something else, generally RD1.

The shoe started P111111 etc and as I generally watch the first three hands to get some idea of what may come up, it led directly into chasing the ZZ until it lost at hand 14.

Normally OTB4L would get killed with a run like that, but that's why I made the modification of it to "catch" those ZZ's when they show up.

MVS

Edited by MVSeahog
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could you please show me the modified version of OTB4L, how is it played ? What are the rules ?

Thanks

Dom

Dom,

I believe I've posted them up somewhere around here but it would be easier just to post it here again.

It's pretty mechanical but does require a bit of watching for major events in the shoe. I was never a big OTB4L proponent, mainly due to the 1's beating it up but then TB4L gets killed by 2's so there had to be a way to get the best of both worlds.

My "current" method of play is to watch the first three hands. You can use any amount, but I chose three. If the shoe starts out P3 or B3, I'll jump in on RD1 or TB4L.

If it starts with a ZZ (P111 or B111) jump in on the ZZ until it ends.

Anything else (P12 or P21, etc) you'll start play with OTB4L. Why? Because we don't have tote boards here and it was either SKOR/z or OTB4L to start an unknown shoe for direction and I still needed two colors for SKOR/z so I went with OTB4L because they play so close with the wagers.

You'll play OTB4L until the previously mentioned ZZ comes up of 4 according to BTC notation, but it looks like this:

B242111.... The "111" signals a switch to betting the Z until it loses.

The same thing happens with a streak of 3. Jump on the streak until it loses and then back to OTB4L.

I stop betting after three losses. Losing a 1,2,1 or 2,1,2 bet stops play until a winning circle shows up playing whatever mode you were in. The betting then resumes at 1.

My personal shoe stop loss is -8 with an occasional "flyer" of one more bet to see if it stands a chance to recover. If I was flat betting it I would use a -6 as the stop loss.

I do keep a running SAP score in the middle of my scoresheet. It adds an element to decide whether to go back to OTB4L or stay on what amounts to an RD1 play once you switch.

I have practiced it strictly as a mechanical system and it does pretty well, but you would still want that extra information with the SAP or some other count to reinforce your choice of playing pattern.

I really wanted to use System 40 as one of my choices but I'm still not sure of where it would fit into the mix. I just love the symmetry of System 40 and would hate to have it fade away again.

Hope this helps and maybe it'll clear up any questions you may have about it.

MVS

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MVS

Makes good sense. Can you post up a card or two ? Show us what it looks like visually..... But good work ...You really got a handle on the systems you are combining and using them in a sensible way that keeps you out trouble and in the chips. Way to go !!!! :biggthumpup:

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Looks very interesting, MV, and following your posts here I'm sure you have run your share of practice shoes on this...

I'm wondering if Mensa could program this and see what outcome he has??

I'll copy your text and post over on his thread....

Edited by Audionut
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MVS

Makes good sense. Can you post up a card or two ? Show us what it looks like visually..... But good work ...You really got a handle on the systems you are combining and using them in a sensible way that keeps you out trouble and in the chips. Way to go !!!! :biggthumpup:

OK, I'll scan the casino card and when I figure out how to make notations on a "clean" standard sheet, I"ll get that posted up with it to explain just what I was doing in that shoe.

MVS

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MensaMadness

MVS

Congrats on moving to $25 units.

When I built my bankroll to $1250 (from a $500 bankroll using dimes), I decided to move to $25 units. I feel comfortable when my bankroll is 50x my unit size.

Anyhow, the next two sessions I got hit and are now playing $10 units again to get back to $1250.

I have a new rule as well:

If I lose two shoes in a row, I quit the session and go back to my program and try new ideas so that I don't lose two hands in a row.

Cheers

Ezza

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Can you post up a card or two ? Show us what it looks like visually

OK, here goes my best shot at this. I really didn't have anything to edit the scan with that looked like I knew what I was doing so I transposed the original scorecard to one of our own and will make the comment here for a running dialog of sorts.

The shoe starts off with a B111 so I start betting the ZZ with a 1,2,1,2 wager. Stay on that until it loses.

Hand 14 is the loser so we go back to the original OTB4L as we really don't know what we've got yet, just a bunch of one's!!

Hand 22 loses the 2 bet but is also a run of 3 Banks so you'll jump on the run basically with RD1 or TB4L, whichever you want to call it.

At this point in the shoe the only significant events are the 2's so far. That first ZZ run is not really a good indicator so you can discount most of it. At least that's what my brain was thinking about that time.

Hand 28 loses and ends the run of Banks. No 3's and only one "real" 1 so I'm back to OTB4L.

Hand 28, pencil broke! Fell back to the crappy casino pen. (Note, bring backup mechanical pencil)

Hand 30 loses but starts another run with a P3. Jump on the run until it ends.

Hand 36 ends the run, back to OTB4L and update the SAP count. Other than the streaks, there's only some 2's to deal with so it's OTB4L for now again.

Hand 44 has us losing our first "three in a row". 2,1,2 lost so we now Skip until a winning circle appears.

Hand 46 has the winning circle and we continue on with OTB4L at 1 unit.

Hand 47 loses AND is the third Bank so we jump back on the Bank streak, we hope.

Hand 51 loses and ends the streak, back to OTB4L and immediately lose the three in a row.

Hand 54 is marked "played wrong" but that's incorrect. It was played correctly because if you'll look at hands 51,52,53 you'll see that they are the start of a ZZ run so the bet at 54 is correct.

Hand 57 WAS played incorrectly though. With the winning hand at 55, you go back on OTB4L. I cost myself 2 units there with that mistake.

Hand 64 has us losing still another three in a row so with Skip until a winning circle.

Hand 66 is another incorrect OTB4L bet. I think my brain slipped into RD1 mode or something.

Hand 67 wins the circle and you continue on with OTB4L to finish the shoe.

Although this shoe had three losing runs of three for -13 units, it still produced a profit. Granted most of them will NOT be this large but the lack of three's and three HUGE streaks really put this one over the top for me.

You can see from the casino card that the paperwork isn't overwhelming and if you understand the notation of SAP, it kind of falls into place once you get settled in.

Hope this helps someone with the way I'm playing at this point in time.

Now let's hope I can get these three graphics to post up!!

MVS

post-2595-14500261265738_thumb.jpg

post-2595-14500261266143_thumb.jpg

post-2595-14500261266376_thumb.jpg

Edited by MVSeahog
Various spelling and brain dead typing mistakes
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Congratulations MVS,

Very good job. I like you application of OTB4L, SAP and RD1 with the change up rules. I'll test some shoes this way. It looks like it will be very easy to use in actual play. That's what I like about any system.... is it easy to play and does it win!

Thanks for showing the example shoe.

PJ

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What is your result if you flat bet? Are you getting same result as you bet 1, 2, 1? Can you share with us your % win rate?

Thanks,

Baccplay

To answer a few questions that came in here and via PM......

I kind of made the change from flat betting to 1,1,2 to the current 1,2,1 when PJ showed us his 1,2,1 play with RD1. I was winning a lot of shoes at 1,1,2 but it was painfully slow. Yes, I'm a conservative player but I could see the value in the 1,2,1 and after looking at about 30 shoes, it came out that the actual "Hi Bets" were still 2's and it was picking up a lot of those free 1,1 lose/win plays with another unit. Losing the full three bets only resulted in an extra 1 unit but only when you lost the 2,1,2 bet and not the 1,2,1 bet so I started looking at the 1, 1.5, 2 and the 1,2,1 as previously mentioned. The 1, 1.5, 2 was just a bit cumbersome to paper play although it would have been easy on a $10 table, on a $25 it would be a pain and once again, the apparent difference in the money was negligible. That's why I'm currently running 1,2,1 as in the RD1 system.

Win percentage rate? I'll assume that the amount of winning shoes to losing shoes. In practice I'm getting three out of four shoes as winners, but I don't have enough live casino play to make an accurate statement about it. I do know that the first five shoes played came out 4 wins and 1 loss. I'll be practicing at least three shoes a night for the forseeable future and will have a better trend by then. Having the stop loss at -8 should negate any really horrible shoes that might show up.

Another question was the wager amounts at hands 12, 13, 14 and 15. I thought this was a "2-Hi" system!!

Well, those bets should have been made about 4 hands earlier on the run. 1,2,1,2,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6 etc or whatever WINNING progression you would normally use would go in there. No sense in wasting a run of 10 or 15 by betting low all the time. That's why there are a pair of 3 wagers and the 4 bet at Hand 14.

MVS

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MVS,

Thanks for posting up those shoes with detailed explanation. Makes perfect sense to me so far....now I'm scared for you! :147:

I'm not going to give up until I have used all the smiley guys !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :approve:

P.S. Where else in the World can I go " I was playing nickles at Bph and bailed to BOC to hassle KLZ while playing OTB4L" and I don't end in the rubber baccarat room.

Now all you got to do is come up with a cool name for your system.....I'm sure you can do better than Kitchen Sink....Hey, I was pressed for time.

New rule for me. Never attempt to post before 3rd cup of coffee.

Edited by TomM
Weekly change of Smiley Guys and of course spelling again
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PJ

Remember when we were trying to think of a name for U2HISAP and I think you said call it anything but USAP. Not good for marketing purposes.

I think this calls for a system naming contest. Putting on thinking cap...

P.S. I am still moving grannies stuff... have had the manual system zero is in loaded in my scanner for days now. Looks like a neglected child. I was playing Bph all night and tried System zero on some real crappy short shoes with a 1, 1.5, 2 unit negative progression and it did good through a bunch of junk and SKOR base knocked off more units in the 2's mixed 1's crap. Kind of fun to have something to default when your half alive and still pick up a few units... low risk.

Grannie will be 82 next week and still has her spurs in my side to move more stuff around and sell coo-coo clock and everything else. If she had a place in the country I would consider grabbing photo albums and coo-coo clock and wait for lighting to strike. She has buried more men than Arlington !!!!!

Edited by TomM
note to self try downloading spell check again
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PJ

Remember when we were trying to think of a name for U2HISAP and I think you said call it anything but USAP. Not good for marketing purposes.

HA! I remember! We were trying to come up with a great name and Ellis said it had a self adjusting progression and was universal because it beat any kind of shoe. That's when I popped off with "please don't name it USAP.. that miught not be good for marketing... Ellis never responded to my post, but we dropped the "U" real quick. LOL!

Edited by ECD
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Now all you got to do is come up with a cool name for your system.....I sure you can do better than Kitchen Sink....Hey, I was pressed for time.

Well, on my internal testing sheets, it's "officially" known as OTB4L Sys 3 because of the proliferation of three's involved. 3 Z's, a streak on either side of 3, stop betting after 3 losses.

The mind does strange things in the wee hours of the morning when you're running sheet after sheet and that's what my brain called it.

I guess we could also try OTB4L S3 as kind of a secret code or something.

MVS (only the Shadow knows, bwuuuuuuhhhhahahahaha)

Man, I need some sleep.

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Hi MVS,

If changing the ZZ run from 11 to 111 then it will lose to the sporadic 1's. Anyway, that's just my two cents.

I came across a very interesting shoe today live in the casino. If you could play this shoe out and post it here, I will be greatly appreciated.

P411112222112

B1131131112122

B3113112121111

B112112121

I still manged to come out ahead even when I use your modified OTB4L version together with Tom's KS concept. But all the losing pattern that you don't want to see do come up in this shoe and it's quite a lot too. Please play the way you would play, I just want to ensure I did it right. Plus this will be a very good sample shoe for other members too.

Thanks in advance,

Baccplay

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MVS:

I woke up in the middle of the night and thought MVP = Most Valuble Progression....would maybe fit. It would be quite memorable... esp to sports fans.

Now that I'm awake I have to fiqure out if I want to surf over to BOC an hassle the ladies and/ or engage the guys in a political discussion. Last time there I had Giovanni or another guy dealer agreeing with me that Bush was first retarded American president. LOL...So many website to visit... so little time. Oh Well ! :bad: Tom

P.S. I might even try scanning System Zero into a folder. There may be a way to twist system zero around a little to fit into you system when the 3's start pouring out.

I'm with you on the 1.5 betting thing unless you are betting a significant unit size like $50.'s or black....even though $10.'s are OK... but to keep it real in brick and mortar joint and online when like a dublinbet dealer on puppy uppers is smoking cards across the felt so fast you can barely get one chip down before you are locked out.

Edited by TomM
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  • Baccarat Hall of Fame Member
Well, on my internal testing sheets, it's "officially" known as OTB4L Sys 3 because of the proliferation of three's involved. 3 Z's, a streak on either side of 3, stop betting after 3 losses.

The mind does strange things in the wee hours of the morning when you're running sheet after sheet and that's what my brain called it.

I guess we could also try OTB4L S3 as kind of a secret code or something.

MVS (only the Shadow knows, bwuuuuuuhhhhahahahaha)

Man, I need some sleep.

Hi guys,

I read with lot of attention the explanation of MVS system (OTBL S3?) and found it very interesting.

Lately I played a lot of shoes deploying Sys.TBL+ with a good success but I like this version of automatic play. I've noticed that you should play it both in OTBL/TBL version so to get the best of two. I'm still experimentering and found 2 ways to decide what's the mode to apply.

a) looking at 2s if they're or not at average or recent

B) looking at an OT count: I'm trying this: when we lose 3 times in a row we suspend table betting till a paper plus (as stated rules); at this point, before resuming table betting I look at the OT count and enter the mode that it's shown.

Remember that generally we make 2 bets in the current mode and the 3rd opposite that mode so we have a parachute even if we miss the right mode.

Comments?

andrea

bacclover

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