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The winning response to today’s random Baccarat games:

E. Clifton Davis’

All Out War

The only method that beats today’s random shoes

What we are up against today: In the ‘80’s and ‘90’s Casino Baccarat shoes often contained certain discernable trends exploitable by knowledgeable system developers and trend players. These trends were created either accidentally or purposefully by casino card prep procedures. All Baccarat systems to date attempt to exploit trends. Some past systems were successful to some degree. However, in their constant quest to optimize profits, casinos identified this weakness and promptly corrected it. Through their use of random shuffle machines and random card prep procedures, casino Baccarat shoes today are largely trendless and, for all practical purposes, random, rendering all systems to date obsolete.

There are many ways I can prove this to you but for now, let me ask you just one question: Whatever system you are playing right now, how’s it been working for you lately? Need I ask more?

Identifying the task: The first step toward any solution is to identify the problem. Pure and simple: Beat random shoes. That’s the name of the game today. Mathematicians argue amongst themselves on just about everything. But they all agree on one thing: random numbers cannot be beat. They even joke about it with comments like: â€That’s as stupid as trying to beat random numbers.†But is Baccarat truly random? I’m convinced that today, the selection between Bank and Player is, for all practical purposes, random. However, we are only looking at a slice of true random. To be true random, the game would need to have infinite selection. But it only has two, thank you very much. Either P wins or B wins. There is no C, D , and F possibilities. Only two, P or B. Forget T! If you still bet on ties, now is a good time to stop. I submit to you that the problem of choosing between only two possibilities can be solved by sufficient torque applied randomly. It took me years to discover exactly how to do this. I call it All Out War because that is exactly what it is. No timid system can beat today’s random game.

AOW Overview: We employ the Fibonaci progression because it has proven itself to be the most successful high torque progression ever developed. We marry that prog to net betting. Net betting, a previous creation of mine, has proven itself to be the most effective way of taming high torque progs. Net betting actually increases avg. win size while lowering avg. bet size and vig. This has proven to be an ideal marriage. We apply betting in a virtual random fashion that does not favor Player or Bank or Opposites or Repeats. Or, better said, we favor all of those equally. We fight random with random.

AOW Objective: To play the AOW successfully, it is critically important that you fully understand and appreciate our objective. Our objective is to either win the shoe at about +120 units or break even. All of the rules and all of the cash mgt. are designed to work harmoniously to achieve this objective. And it does, if you play correctly. We can afford to lose a prog IF we start over again at 1 vs. 1 immediately and complete the shoe. In 72 plays, we will end up close to even. The third sample shoe is an example of this. Fortunately, today, most shoes are somewhat longer than 72 plays (not counting ties) increasing your chances of achieving the break even part of our objective.

AOW early statistics: Thanks to Keith, we will soon have proven finite numbers on all aspects of AOW computer tested over thousands of shoes. Until then, I’ll give you the manual test outcomes. Manual testing indicates we will lose 7 progs in 24 shoes or about 1 prog every 3.4 shoes. Also, we will hit our stop loss twice in 24 shoes by hitting multiple losing progs in the same shoe, scoring about -80 in each of those losing shoes. This gives us an average of about +67 units per shoe overall. If these statistics are anywhere near correct, the AOW is the highest scoring system ever created by a country mile. We will know very shortly. Recognize that even if we lost a prog in 9 out of 10 shoes we would still walk away a winner.

What we lose to: We employ an 8 bet prog. Normally an 8 bet prog loses to a certain 8 play pattern. We don’t. The AOW loses to certain 9 play minimum patterns. You will soon note that the 8 play pattern we lose to in one instance, we sail right through the next instance. Therein lies some of our advantage. To lose to a pattern we must hit it wrong. As we test, we will identify losing patterns for informational purposes only.

The importance of playing correctly: Time and time again, we have found that AOW mistakes can be costly. If you miss a switch or fail to note that you have won your two bets, or go back to 1 early, you get into a condition we have come to call wrong footed. This inevitably ends up in losing a prog to a normally non losing pattern. Therefore practicing until you play flawlessly every time is imperative. Practice, practice, practice!

Personal Scorecards: The AOW is difficult enough without the added complication of unfamiliar scorecards. My recommendation is to take our card or the card of your choice to a copy shop (if you do not have a copier) and have plenty of copies made on heavy gage light colored paper that you have checked for its ability to take your writing and erasures. Make sure you have sufficient room to play a full shoe on the same side of the same card without having to turn the card over or resort to two cards.

Scorecard legibility: As you play, make your circles as large as possible and try to draw them in horizontal ellipticals as I have on the sample games. We aren’t used to double digit entries on our card, let alone triple digit entries. Write your numbers as large and as clearly as possible. Nothing can ruin your day more than making mistakes because you couldn’t read your own writing.

The importance of conservative play: I have dropped the conservative prog because it lacks the advantage and win rate of the Fibonaci. I would much rather see you play nickels on a dime table in the interest of conservation.

The minimum bankroll requirements listed below are just that, minimum. While 100 units should suffice, Baccarat seems to be the very proof of Murphy’s law. I would much rather see you start with 200 units even if it means starting with nickel play until your Bankroll reaches $2000. Then go to dimes.

Advancing your unit: The same applies to advancing your unit. Many players have learned the hard way that advancing your unit is the most dangerous decision you could make. You get into position to advance your unit because you have won several shoes in a row. You are overdue to lose. However, the AOW presents opportunities to advance your unit quicker than any other system. If you choose to do this, don’t do it until you have 200 units minimum of the higher denomination.

Cash mgt. explanation: Once you have successfully completed your first shoe without a prog loss, cash mgt. is no longer much of a factor. Therefore, our cash mgt. is designed to get you to that point. The reason we hold off on the 55 bet until play 20 is because when you lose a prog in the first col. you are at your most vulnerable to lose two progs in the same shoe. You are also at your most vulnerable to hit your stop loss. The hold off on the 55 bet is an attempt to get you through this calamity with enough chips to continue play. Additional computer testing will pinpoint the optimum play to initially deploy your 55 with minimum exposure.

Casino heat: There is no question that the AOW will draw more attention than any system we have ever played. It will draw attention from the other players as well as casino personnel. Be alert to this. The last thing you want is to be asked to leave. Leave on your own before you are asked to. There are other casinos and other days. Now, we are ready for the AOW rules. Learn them well and practice as much as possible. When you have everything down pat practice until you can play automatically and confidently.

AOW Rules

12/07/05

1. Scorecard: Prepare your scorecard in ECD Bac fashion:

4 columns, 20 plays long, 5 lanes per column. Head the first two lanes P and B. The remaining 3 lanes are for your running score. The two extra score lanes are for future use should you want to compare progressions, systems, or variations. At each play, make your P and B entries according to the rules below. Circle the side that wins and enter your running score. See sample games.

2. Progression: AOW: 1 3 5 8 13 21 34 55

3. Betting: The AOW utilizes the ECD Bac net betting strategy:

Starting on the first play at 1 vs. 1, start your progression down both sides. Bet up 1 rung when you lose and down 1 rung when you win. Each play will have a P and B entry. Subtract the low bet from the high bet and table bet the difference on the high side. When the two entries are the same, we have no table bet that play.

4. Mandatory 3: The 1 bet, win or lose is ALWAYS followed by the 3. Accordingly, the first two plays are always 1vs.1 and 3 vs.3.

Our first table bet is always at play 3.

5. Objective: The objective of each progression is to win 2 bets either in a row or separated by 1 loss. (Win-Lose-Win) Once accomplished, that prog goes back to 1 and starts over.

6. Inserting the 2: Since we must have room for the two winning bets without decreasing to 1, whenever we lose the 1 and win the 3, we insert the 2. When we win the 2, we have won our 2 bets so we go to 1. When we lose the 2 we do not bet 3 again. We skip up to 5. If we win, that’s our two bet win so we go back to 1.

7. The lose 2 win 1 rule: Whenever we lose 2 bets (only 2) and then win, and that winning bet is 13 or higher, we take the 3 bet series over again. (we go down 2 instead of 1). As a conservative measure, once you are in the 3rd and 4th columns, I recommend that you employ this rule at the winning 8 bet level. This conservative measure protects us from the terrible threes, BBB PPP BBB PPP.

8. Switching on winning 1’s: The progressions do not continue betting straight down. This would cause us to lose shoes that strongly favor one side or the other. To keep our progressions relatively even and to keep our high bets to a minimum, whenever we win a 1 bet, (with the exception of the first play of the game) the resulting 3 bet goes on the other side. The other progression accommodates by also switching sides. The two progressions remain on the switched side until the next winning 1. Recognize that the win 2 objective follows its progression. Example: We win

a 1 bet on Player. The resulting 3 bet goes on Bank. If we win that 3 bet we have satisfied our 2 bet objective so that progression goes back to 1, on Bank. If we win that 1 bet we would switch again. If we lose the 1 bet the 3 goes straight down. You may want to color code your two progs on your first couple of practice shoes.

Cash mgt. : Don’t go passed the 34 in the first 19 plays. At, and including play 20, play the whole prog. Should you lose the whole prog, start over at 1vs 1. This way the AOW tends to break even when it loses a prog. The only way we can lose is to lose multiple progs in the same shoe. This is rare about 1 shoe in 12.

Overall stop loss: However rare, since it is possible to lose multiple progs in the same shoe, do not make a bet that could take you beyond -100. This makes your worst case scenario somewhere around -80. Not bad, since your avg winning shoe is about +120.

Minimum bankroll required: 100 units min.

Note: The stronger your starting bankroll position is, the better your odds of success. We seldom lose a session after winning our first shoe.

Practice: It is imperative to practice beforehand at the stakes you intend to play. We get into some high bets that could be just about anything. You must automatically know the correct number of chips to bet and on which side to bet them.

Playing $5 chips on a $10 table : For low bankroll concerns and perhaps for your first casino game of the day (until you get your Baccarat brain in gear) consider playing $5 units on a $10 min. table. Since 1 bets are very rare simply treat 1 bets the same as a no bet. Once you have reached $2000, you can elect to advance to $10 units, but not before then.

Max Unit: I would think twice about going higher than $25 units. You now have the best Baccarat system of all time. The LAST thing you want to do is get ejected.

Tip: Should you find yourself at a consistently choppy table, it is a good idea to drop the every other bet rule and always go for 2 consecutive wins. This makes the system extremely strong in chop but at the expense of streak strength.

Sample games: The two sample games below are recent Las Vegas games. The same two sample games are shown for both progs for comparison purposes.

Sample games: AOW

Sample game #1

http://beatthecasino.com/aow/sample_game_1.jpg

Sample game #2

http://beatthecasino.com/aow/sample_game_2.jpg

Sample game #3 (single prog loss)

http://beatthecasino.com/aow/sample_game_3.jpg

Note the oddness of this shoe: Super chop to super streak. Those 3 scores in the wrong col. in col. 2 was a mistake. The phone rang.

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Hi,

Very interesting but the critical sample shoes don't seem to be at those links. Could you just post them for us?

Definitely not a conservative way to play but I would like to see a little more.

Thanx for posting about it.

Best regards,

Jim

No problem. Yes it does seem interesting. It was a very old post that someone brought up in the public forum... I figured I would repost it here because it wouldn't get noticed there. Maybe someone has those example shoes. I followed it mostly, but it's impossible to get it 100% without examples or extra clarification.

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Yes , i was the one who inquired on this topic ,(AOW), All OUT War...... Was thinking of using this system with MDB+ at the right time to place a strong bet and really make a killing at the tables.

Yes its a larger bank roll . But at the same time if your averaging over 60 points a shoe . I'm willing to do it .... then add MDB+ to the betting pattern ... well for me it opens up a whole new can of worms for profit , and at a faster rate . Depending of course on your starting bank roll....One Bank Roll for AOW , And one for MDB+... Combine the two and , ( hopefully ) , the casinos will be paying you to stay away...LOL....

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Yes , i was the one who inquired on this topic ,(AOW), All OUT War...... Was thinking of using this system with MDB+ at the right time to place a strong bet and really make a killing at the tables.

Yes its a larger bank roll . But at the same time if your averaging over 60 points a shoe . I'm willing to do it .... then add MDB+ to the betting pattern ... well for me it opens up a whole new can of worms for profit , and at a faster rate . Depending of course on your starting bank roll....One Bank Roll for AOW , And one for MDB+... Combine the two and , ( hopefully ) , the casinos will be paying you to stay away...LOL....

To each his own I guess...

I started out thinking as you do and then the guy I regarded as the best (outside of Ellis) took me in hand after I posted a shoe where my bets were reaching as high as 7 units. It was Norm (may he RIP)...Six words in a short PM..."7 units...You must be INSANE!"

WOW!...That was some slapdown considering the respect that I had for the guy.

He asked me if I was looking at making a living from my Casino winnings...and I answered in the affirmative

He then explained it this way...

7 units may not sound so bad if your base unit size is under $100...but ...if I ever hoped to graduate to his current base unit size ($5K) that it might be worth thinking it through

Can I ever see myself being in a position of being willing to make a 7 Unit $35,000 bet?...especially given that the total progression loss risk would be 28 Units ($140,000)

What size bank would I require before risking that sort of money?...Nuff said

His theory was that you need to start out as you intend to continue and just increase your unit size in a gradual progression as your bank increases ...(always remembering that if you hit a bad run that you can always reduce your unit size)

That's when he introduced me to the 2H Loop that he favoured...which suited my conservative nature down to the ground...a 2 unit high bet was much easier to handle

He also had further advice..."When you find what works for you...stick to it and just try and refine your own method of play...Don't jump around trying various systems"

I incorporated the 2H into my own method of play which involved a 2 unit Maximum bet playing U1D2 Netbetting and the 2H Loop when I switched to OTB4L or S40

It worked well...but not as well with Pre-shuffled cards

Then I picked up on Ellis's comments about the much shorter Bias's with Pre-shuffled cards...OK...Simple enough...hop on the Bias...make a few units...and hop back off again and wait for my next opportunity

I was doing pretty well but then on checking my records...I found that even though my profits would have been lower...my player advantage would be higher if I had just FLAT BET

So that's what I do now...Except when I'm Netbetting...I Flatbet single $500 Units only (which I'm about to up to $1000 Units in the near future)

For me a bad day is an 18% to 20% return when Flatbetting and that is easily achievable for anyone who wants to put in the hard yards

Look at it logically...Baccarat is close to an even money game

Baccarat does still have Bias's albeit not as long in the main as it once did

BTC teaches you to recognise those Bias's

For me...I watch and wait...and look for the opportunities

I watch for 1's and 2's for S40...but I don't want to see a perfect S40 ZZ shoe because as the old sayings go..."if it looks too good to be true, it usually is" and "all good things come to and end"... I've found that in the main...perfect bias's seem to end their sequences sooner )

2's...3's and 4's for OTB4L... as above except I don't want to see a run of 3 consecutive 2's because those perfect OTB4L runs seem to end earlier than say a run of 2's...3's and 4's

1's and 4+'s for S40M1

zz 1's ...possible solitary 2's with 3's and 4's for Netbetting

Not forgetting what I regard as the safest bet in Baccarat..."STRONG SIDE F3"

Again...Baccarat is 50/50...BTC gives you an edge...It's up to each individual as to how they use it

Norm's best advice was "When in doubt...wait it out"

Look...In my opinion, Ellis is caught between a rock and a hard place...He has to design systems that do not take all that much effort to learn because he has to appeal to so many different types...those for whom English is their second language...those who aren't genius's (moi)...we can't all be Maths professors and the terminally lazy who believe that because they have forked out a pittance that Ellis should present them with the "HOLY GRAIL" of Baccarat.

And then there are just the ordinary Joes...who are prepared to work their butts off to succeed...and I'm thinking (hoping) that there are heaps of them out there in BTC land...These members methinks are the most likely to hit the heights

For those that really want it...Ellis has already given you the tools ...but he can't hold your hand forever (FFS the poor old bugger struggles to pour his own scotch)

Ask yourself..."How badly do you really want it?"

Oz

Another bit of wisdom from NORM... He lived by the code that he would rather miss out on a big win than take a loss

I miss the guy...truly one of nature's gentlemen

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Thanks for the info Oz..

Right now my casino uses new cards that are hand washed and machine shuffled .... NOR has done me quite well at this casino ...

As for AOW... have been re-doing all my old cards over again as per AOW rules ..... Yes , some bets get high . But that is the nature of the system .... have only had one losing shoe ... ( NOTE: I do not bet over a certain amount of points ). All of the other shoes have produced over 75+ points ... two shoes were at 30+ points .... for me to not look into this more , I feel i might be missing something . For that i'm willing to give a try at it .

As for bank roll . I worked out that issue and it has never gone negative for the shoes i have replayed .... again , its another positive sign for me to look into this a little more ...

Was wondering if the posted examples could be reposted so i can compair my understanding of the rules to their examples .

Yes , Norm was a Baccarat Player and has helped many others ... His posts have helped me and given me a stronger willingness to beat this game for all its worth . Big bank roll OR small bank roll .. which everway i finally decide to play ...

Was never good at typing or spelling ... sorrry for my errors ...

mike .................

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  • Baccarat Hall of Fame Member

AOW brings up an interesting concept... Using a $20000 bankroll, one could play AOW with $100 units or play MDB+ with $1000 units. For Vegas preshuffled touch shoes, this might be viable. Doubling the bankroll in 5 winning shoes is the foundation for my million in 30 day plan. If AOW is averaging 50-100 units per shoe, than it is certainly on track. Considering this could be attempted with $25 units at some smaller casinos with a $5000 buyin, it is quite tempting.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.  Figure out a way to win at baccarat that fits your lifestyle, you don't have to eat fish anymore!

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Yes it is interesting . Very interesting for me .... I can only get away to a casino once every two months for a week of play .... So working on my casino with NOR , ( New cards, then hand washed , then machine shuffled ),to build my war chest up ... Take that trip to Vegas every two months , when i have the time . And play where they heve multiple tables ... Win 5 shoes a day at different casinos , for 5 days ..... six trips a year total .... YOUR IN THE MONEY.... End of story ...... Just need those examples to have a better understanding of the directions at certain stages of the progression ...

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The winning response to today’s random Baccarat games:

Sample games: AOW

Sample game #1

http://beatthecasino.com/aow/sample_game_1.jpg

Sample game #2

http://beatthecasino.com/aow/sample_game_2.jpg

Sample game #3 (single prog loss)

http://beatthecasino.com/aow/sample_game_3.jpg

Dear Mr Keith,

Why majority of the "Link" Sample/Manual files are missing or not found???

Tsen

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Dear Mr Keith,

Why majority of the "Link" Sample/Manual files are missing or not found???

Tsen

Tsen,

I'm thinking that those graphics got lost during the infamous Egyptian attack of a few years ago.

We lost a lot of files, graphics and threads in that one and I'm betting that's why the links aren't working now.

I do remember that system play and when it was "ON", it was really a blazing piece of work.

I'm sure if enough guys mulled it over, they could work out the details again but it was a very volatile system play for sure.

I thought I had the original sample files here on my computer but all I've got is the original description that is already here.

MVS

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Thanks MVS... I was hopeing that wasen't the case for the lost items .... What is ... is ....

Either way . From reading the other posts in some of the other threads . I don't think the posts will materalize any time soon ... MDB+ is the main topic with NOR for new people joining B.T.C. .

I'm kind of Broken Hearted . Because of my limited time to play at the casino's . I'm Sure other have the same problem as me ... I can't go everyday or just on weekends ... Just one week every 2 Months . And lucky to get a seat to boot ... So when i get a seat . I want to play for blood . And get every drop i can .. My above 6 week trip would be ideal for me with this system ... and i'm willing to take the losses . Because right now , the wins far out number them from what i can tell ..

And yes . You are correct about working it out .... Am almost there ... Just a few more tweeks to do when i have the time . Then i'm going to go to WAR AT MY LOCAL CASINO .... Then take it to Vegas .....

Again , Thanks for responding MVS...

mike...

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Everyone should realize that this is like reading the NOR Manual for the first time ... You say to your self , "what the F _ _ _ ". But as time goes on . And the more reading you do , and re-reading with a whole lot of practice shoes ... things fall into place ....

As for me . I'm going to practice and practice while re-reading the diretions ... With that , i think things will fall into place.... ( In my spare time ).

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Everyone should realize that this is like reading the NOR Manual for the first time ... You say to your self , "what the F _ _ _ ". But as time goes on . And the more reading you do , and re-reading with a whole lot of practice shoes ... things fall into place ....

As for me . I'm going to practice and practice while re-reading the diretions ... With that , i think things will fall into place.... ( In my spare time ).

The only part of the rules that I do to get is "switching on winning 1's". Wondering how there are ever 1 bets if we are net betting the high side. Any ideas?

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The only part of the rules that I do to get is "switching on winning 1's". Wondering how there are ever 1 bets if we are net betting the high side. Any ideas?

Hi Ztomsk,

I wondered the same thing but if you win enough on one side you get down to a 3 bet then you win you are at a 1 bet against like a 13 bet or so or maybe an 8 if you win the same side again then you win the 1 and lost say the 8 then I believe that is when your 3 bet goes on the side where the 8 bet was and the 13 bet goes on the side where the 1 was won.

At least that's how I did it in one of my shoes I was working on.

Hope this helps,

Jim

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  • Baccarat Hall of Fame Member

A.O.W.

AllOutWar.

Has anyone of us actually been on the front lines, in a REAL " all out war"?

( I mean shooting at others, living in a " foxhole" , unable to sleep for fear of never waking up, yada, yada)?

Well, I know for sure I have NOT experienced this, but I HAVE spent many, many hundreds ( dare I say thousands?) of hours playing Baccarat over the last 20 years. So has Ellis. So have many of you, few of whom comment on the experience...

Was hoping Ellis would have put a definitive " ka-bosh" or " ka-boom" on this AOW Fibber-Nacci stuff, before some of our newer members got killed

That's what I said. Killed.

Look, in today's Internet world you can read all about Marty Gale, Fibber Nacci, D. Alembarresed and some of the other great "Liar's Poker" players of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries.

Just GOOGLE it...

Many great and powerful lessons can be learned from their exploits and dream-weaving ways, but becoming an overnight Baccarat sensation ( or even a Millionaire) was/

is definitely not in their cards.

Was hoping Ellis would step in and get this Forum refocused on how to win with NOR or MDB+, rather than having its membership chasing rainbows like Baccarat Forum or Gambler's Glen and disintegrating into the "baccarat bog" ( like QuickSand) with AOW, TheTalesOfMarty, or other pie-in-the-sky systems long proven wayyyyyyyyyyy past their prime.

Hey, you all owe it to yourself to read up on what these great men of DaysGoneBy had to say about Gambling and Gambling Systems, before you waste one more minute testing a few shoes and thinking you might be onto The Holy Grail...

Sorry to bust up the party, but somebody has to...

If you really understand NOR, NORSAP, and MDB+ you have a license to steal from the casino.

If you are still working on your " learner's permit" for same, like many among us are, be-ware that you will ultimately become the proud owner of your own LethalWeapon(s) ... Just be careful to learn how not to shoot-yourself in the foot in the process of drawing your weapon...( PS...this means pay just as much attention to your stop-loss, stop-win and money management skills...as you do to choosing whether to bet on Player or Banker)

As always, I wish you all the best, and anyone wants to look up what the word " FIB" means ( hmmnnnn, kind of sounds like Fibonacci?), I think you'll save yourself a whole lotta' dough...

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I'm just using my old cards to try it out ... no harm there .. If you use this without looking in to it , YOUR an idiot ..

But the odd thing is , Will it work or won't it ? ... That realy hasen't been answered yet has it ...

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  • Baccarat Hall of Fame Member
I'm just using my old cards to try it out ... no harm there .. If you use this without looking in to it , YOUR an idiot ..

But the odd thing is , Will it work or won't it ? ... That realy hasen't been answered yet has it ...

Purrfect reply!!

It has been answered, just where does one find the answer?

But, perhaps you ( or maybe 100's of other BTC players) have 100's, maybe 1000's of cards to " test" this concept on.

- Think the TalkingHeads at the Casino have overlooked this one?

- Does anyone really think individuals will really take the time to go and accurately, " back-test" 100's or 1,000's of cards?.....

Exact response I expected.

It's a nice dream, but if it were reality, we'd all be living large, and Ellis would no longer be holding luncheons in Las Vegas to discuss new and improved...

Point is simple, Maxxy.

A few cards, or even 10-20-30-??

YES, YOU CAN WIN in the short term.

But Fibby, or Marty or " " will bury your ass in the long term.

Just when you thought it was safe to go " long and deep"

Just when you thought it was safe to go" back in the water"

Just when you thought you'd discovered the HolyGrail...

( lots of this stuff works in the short term..but if you ever, ever placed your whole hand on a stove burner that was turned on, you learn once and for all never to go near THAT again..)

Long live the Fibby!

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I'm just using my old cards to try it out ... no harm there .. If you use this without looking in to it , YOUR an idiot ..

But the odd thing is , Will it work or won't it ? ... That realy hasen't been answered yet has it ...

Purrfect reply!!

It has been answered, just where does one find the answer?

But, perhaps you ( or maybe 100's of other BTC players) have 100's, maybe 1000's of cards to " test" this concept on.

- Think the TalkingHeads at the Casino have overlooked this one?

- Does anyone really think individuals will really take the time to go and accurately, " back-test" 100's or 1,000's of cards?.....

Exact response I expected.

It's a nice dream, but if it were reality, we'd all be living large, and Ellis would no longer be holding luncheons in Las Vegas to discuss new and improved...

Point is simple, Maxxy.

A few cards, or even 10-20-30-??

YES, YOU CAN WIN in the short term.

But Fibby, or Marty or " " will bury your ass in the long term.

Just when you thought it was safe to go " long and deep"

Just when you thought it was safe to go" back in the water"

Just when you thought you'd discovered the HolyGrail...

( lots of this stuff works in the short term..but if you ever, ever placed your whole hand on a stove burner that was turned on, you learn once and for all never to go near THAT again..)

Long live the Fibby!

Fibonacci!!!
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Guys, for the millionth time: there is no purely mechanical system that wins long term.

That is why NOR, including TB4L, is based on biases.

MDB+ is based on random cards which is a bias in itself.

Net betting is based on counts - the count closest to zero.

You must have a mathematical reason to play the system you select

System selection is everything once you know the systems

THAT is how you get an edge,

You can't expect to win playing only one system.

There are no short cuts.

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A.O.W.

AllOutWar.

Has anyone of us actually been on the front lines, in a REAL " all out war"?

( I mean shooting at others, living in a " foxhole" , unable to sleep for fear of never waking up, yada, yada)?

Well, I know for sure I have NOT experienced this, but I HAVE spent many, many hundreds ( dare I say thousands?) of hours playing Baccarat over the last 20 years. So has Ellis. So have many of you, few of whom comment on the experience...

Was hoping Ellis would have put a definitive " ka-bosh" or " ka-boom" on this AOW Fibber-Nacci stuff, before some of our newer members got killed

That's what I said. Killed.

Look, in today's Internet world you can read all about Marty Gale, Fibber Nacci, D. Alembarresed and some of the other great "Liar's Poker" players of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries.

Just GOOGLE it...

Many great and powerful lessons can be learned from their exploits and dream-weaving ways, but becoming an overnight Baccarat sensation ( or even a Millionaire) was/

is definitely not in their cards.

Was hoping Ellis would step in and get this Forum refocused on how to win with NOR or MDB+, rather than having its membership chasing rainbows like Baccarat Forum or Gambler's Glen and disintegrating into the "baccarat bog" ( like QuickSand) with AOW, TheTalesOfMarty, or other pie-in-the-sky systems long proven wayyyyyyyyyyy past their prime.

Hey, you all owe it to yourself to read up on what these great men of DaysGoneBy had to say about Gambling and Gambling Systems, before you waste one more minute testing a few shoes and thinking you might be onto The Holy Grail...

Sorry to bust up the party, but somebody has to...

If you really understand NOR, NORSAP, and MDB+ you have a license to steal from the casino.

If you are still working on your " learner's permit" for same, like many among us are, be-ware that you will ultimately become the proud owner of your own LethalWeapon(s) ... Just be careful to learn how not to shoot-yourself in the foot in the process of drawing your weapon...( PS...this means pay just as much attention to your stop-loss, stop-win and money management skills...as you do to choosing whether to bet on Player or Banker)

As always, I wish you all the best, and anyone wants to look up what the word " FIB" means ( hmmnnnn, kind of sounds like Fibonacci?), I think you'll save yourself a whole lotta' dough...

YEP...Been there...done that if Vietnam counts.

Even let out the humdinger of all farts on what I reckon was the quietest night ever...I swear blind that I could hear the Cong laughing...It's debateable as to whether my fart saved a few lives that night

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