Keith Smith Posted August 9, 2015 Report Share Posted August 9, 2015 I think this captures all the rules pretty well http://www.screencast.com/t/xEjTCInj6b password: BeatTheC@sinoI hope you all enjoy itKeith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Smith Posted August 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 LIke it?Sucks?No Comment hahahanything?KS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Users zabocr Posted August 10, 2015 Users Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 Being new to MDB forum I thought it was very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trillion Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 Keith and WAY2FAST if I read the triggers correctly, after 2 different ZZ of 4 bet, that the next ZZ of 3 stays @ 3 and does not go to a 4 ZZ.However on screencast, the way that you demonstrated you indicated that the 2 zigzags of 4ZZ or more is a trigger.According to the FULL WAY2FAST RULES posting #7, indicates that after 2 different zigzags of 4 ZZ without a 3 ZZ between this trigger stays a 3 ZZ. Example 5114 or 3114 Is this the correct way to play this trigger????Has anyone played MDB+ successfully @ a casino that deals regular cards????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Users brad01 Posted August 10, 2015 Users Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 Have played it with mixed success. I still combine with NOR and don't use the 124 progression.Maybe I just need to be better at adjusting to the shoe at hand - still practising Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglasb53 Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 Great Job ! I think this is a really good learning tool.How about a once week lesson on playing a shoe w/ MDB? I was thinking that a shoe could be posted in a line (B43211124212122.....) so that the members could look at it and play it like they think it should be played. Then a screenshot could be made on how it "should " be played with explanations. A library could be logged for future training and review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Users ECD Posted August 10, 2015 Users Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 Keith and WAY2FAST if I read the triggers correctly, after 2 different ZZ of 4 bet, that the next ZZ of 3 stays @ 3 and does not go to a 4 ZZ.Yes Trillion, that's what the rule says, and that is how I play it.However on screencast, the way that you demonstrated you indicated that the 2 zigzags of 4ZZ or more is a trigger.I have not had the time to watch it yet, but will soon. I think it has been explained several times in the forum, but I prefer to play it as 4ZZ, NOT as 4ZZ or more. Maybe it works out fine playing "or more", but that is not how I like to play it. The reason is that I do not want to be betting for a single 1 (3ZZ) in a perfect TBL shoe. For example, 4511111113445111143. There are two 4ZZ or mores in this shoe -- but do you really want to be betting that this shoe is about to start throwing out single 1's? I don't. The whole idea of MDB is to catch those nice random patterns throughout the flow of the shoe. 3124122112331124. Now that is the kind of shoe you want to play the ZZs in. Some of the rules are designed to make sure you don't get suckered into poor bets in high biased situations. Following the rules, MDB does just fine in biased shoes -- despite the often-repeated myth that it doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baccarat Hall of Fame Member kachatz1 Posted August 11, 2015 Baccarat Hall of Fame Member Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 Yes Trillion, that's what the rule says, and that is how I play it.I have not had the time to watch it yet, but will soon. I think it has been explained several times in the forum, but I prefer to play it as 4ZZ, NOT as 4ZZ or more. Maybe it works out fine playing "or more", but that is not how I like to play it. The reason is that I do not want to be betting for a single 1 (3ZZ) in a perfect TBL shoe. For example, 4511111113445111143. There are two 4ZZ or mores in this shoe -- but do you really want to be betting that this shoe is about to start throwing out single 1's? I don't. The whole idea of MDB is to catch those nice random patterns throughout the flow of the shoe. 3124122112331124. Now that is the kind of shoe you want to play the ZZs in. Some of the rules are designed to make sure you don't get suckered into poor bets in high biased situations. Following the rules, MDB does just fine in biased shoes -- despite the often-repeated myth that it doesn't.Way2 will watch the video, and comment.I Was shocked Keith put it so simply.So did you.The Keithster has shown us ( as never before EZ to understand/implement) just how powerful this site can be as a tool to BTC players.Never. Ever . Before.Thing about MDB is it just closes the gap that NOR or 4D does not.You get all 3 in your arse(nal)And you will be in the top 99.99 % of all players Singapore to Montreal, Bahamas to Monte Carlo, Atlantic City to Macau.Throw in Vegas, and you can go all-in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Users brad01 Posted August 11, 2015 Users Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 Hi way2fast and Ntr19 - I challenge you to a friendly debate on MDB+ play on biased shoes and I will post 3 real shoes that I played and post them and you can show how you would have played them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baccarat Hall of Fame Member kachatz1 Posted August 11, 2015 Baccarat Hall of Fame Member Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 Brad01You have been an immense asset to the forum, especially helping out the newbies, roulette commentary, posting on virtually every thread far-and-wide!Back at it, and the last thing you'll ever see me do is tell someone how to play a shoe that has already been played.The problem is, you show anyone here on the forum a whole shoe, and ask them how they WOULD HAVE PLAYED IT, and you'll get a whole lot of different answers.Nothing compares to sitting in the hot seat, betting real $$ ( oh, dare I say YourMoney?), at casino speed ( or your own)Way2 and N9 are GREAT players, but you're not offering up a fair fight...What is their bankroll?What progression?What hand will they start at?Would they leave mid-shoe?Etc.Etc.With what I saw from Keith earlier this evening ( THE VID), I think we are really on the right track...I'll bow out with this shoe from the REdRock this evening...played LIVE, as soon as I drove back into townB21113111112551115111116151114111313131111 tieTBL, Yowzah.Played with a man named Michael Godard...check him out on the web...incredible artist...tats and all....Check him out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Users brad01 Posted August 11, 2015 Users Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 Hi Kevin,I understand what you are saying about seeing a shoe - you only have to glance through it and you can get a picture of what works and doesn't work but I guess my debate was over MDB+ for biased shoes.I have not had bad MDB+ results with the shoes I play but just not great results.Not good enough to risk a 124 progressionI'm willing to admit that maybe that's on me in not adjusting to the shoe at hand and I need more practise and understanding of how to really optimise MDB+I don't question way2fasts use of MDB+ - the results speak for themselves but I guess there is still a little scepticism in me that the shoes I play regularly are not super MDB+ performersI will pick 3 at random as the shoe types I play are all biased and lets see how many MDB+ signals / wins we can find that's all - not trying to bait anyone into an unfair situation.I guess just a little experiment for all the guys who have that scepticism in them.Hey I really hope that I'm wrong as I would love nothing more than to go to the casino knowing I can adjust MDB+ to any shoe - even biased ones that I play. At the moment I'm 50/50 MDB+ vs NOR in fact would probably rather take NOR into battle over MDB+ with the shoes I play and my ability with MDB+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Users brad01 Posted August 11, 2015 Users Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 You make me laugh Kevin. Do you get much attention from the casinos playing there so often and being a consistent winner?Sometimes its not what you do but the way that you do it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ntrl9 Posted August 11, 2015 Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) Duplicate post Edited August 11, 2015 by Ntrl9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ntrl9 Posted August 11, 2015 Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) Hey Brad-It's easy to say how you would play a shoe in hindsight.. I can tell you that when I play MDB+ online (hand-shuffle biased cards) I play to win 2 or 3 units in a shoe. However, If I see from the very beginning of the shoe a strong bias I will most definitely sit out until I see a trigger win before diving in. But typically I won't take certain triggers in certain situations. For example P2211111111311122311111222 at this point I would not take a 3- 2's for the next 2 going 3. In fact, I would play S40 and not look to force MDB on this shoe period. I think the biggest mistake you can make is forcing a system on to a particular shoe. You need to flex with the shoe, if you are going to be so inflexible then you are going to have a tough time. That being said I gravitate towards S40 shoes, I will seek out nice choppy shoes and play S40 always it's just my preference.... I know other people I play with see runs and love playing that shoe type betting straight repeats. What I won't do is impose S40 on a perfect TBL or OTBL shoe. It's been said a ton of times and it's really common sense but you need to play the shoe in front of you, recognize the shoe type and play the bias until it changes and then leave or wait until you can identify what is going on. I think its easy to say but with experience you start to be able to sense when a shoe is changing (not all the time and definitely not if your distracted/not 100% focused). That element of play is something that can't be taught it comes with experience and unfortunately losing. Lastly, you can learn all the systems out there and play them in your sleep, but if you can not recognize what system fits the shoe best and when a shoe is changing you will still get into trouble.I hope this helps....NTRL9 Edited August 11, 2015 by Ntrl9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Users ECD Posted August 11, 2015 Users Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 Agree with NTRL9 comments. I don't see why there needs to be some challenge or debate on the topic. Brad, I would also add that if you are skeptical, or at all unsure, than you shouldn't use MDB. Even more importantly, if you are having success with NOR, or any other method, then stick with it. Learn how to make it even better for you. The goal is for YOU to have success, using whatever method is necessary. There are MANY ways to win -- no one system is "best", as long as you provide the discipline, sufficient capital and adequate brain power. IMO, the biggest two "problems" with the "old" BTC were the use of hindsight instead of teaching observation and anticipation, and the regular abandonment of good ideas in favor of finding the next holy grail. Hopefully we can move BTC to a different place by breaking the mold of the past. I applaud Kevin and Damian's posts below, and Keith's fantastic use of screencast as a teaching aide, as they all speak to and demonstrate the future direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baccarat Hall of Fame Member kachatz1 Posted August 11, 2015 Baccarat Hall of Fame Member Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 You make me laugh Kevin. Do you get much attention from the casinos playing there so often and being a consistent winner?Sometimes its not what you do but the way that you do it!Last night, while I was playing, I turned around and noticed my casino host standing behind me..the table was pretty full, so while I knew someone was " back there" , I had no idea who it was until I turned around.....Seriously, I do not play big $$ every hand, so I really don't get much attention, except for the fact that everyone wants to know WTF I am writing down after each hand!But a few things I do will never, ever get me kicked out of a casino.1) I am never afraid to play alone. in fact, I prefer it.2) I am very talkative when I play. I ask the dealer, the pit boss and others playing about their children, what they do in their time off, etc...it is NOT the discussion of somebody trying to take advantage3) I engage the dealer by tipping them extremely well, and often....Look at it this way...pretend you are sitting in the dealer's chair, making $xx/ year, watching people from all walks of life come up and squander small fortunes right in front of you...and come back and do it again...or, they win small fortunes and boast about it...perhaps in a language you do not understand...How would you feel?? So while I know they share the tip $$, what's the big deal if I place a side wager for $10 or $20 ( sometimes much more)'next to my $200 or $500 wager? I win, and that $10 gets them $20...I lose, and instead of losing $200, I lost $210...most definitely not going to hurt me ...but, I guarantee you that now they know you are a respectful, honest, caring person....and while they cannot influence the cards coming out of the shoe, believe me they will be rooting for you to win....and when you create good karma, it follows you...4) Fist bumps, high 5's and even me jumping up mid-shoe and giving a player a quick shoulder -massage. Shows everyone I want them to win, just as much as I do...remember, you are not playing against anyone, including the dealer, you are just playing against yourself, and your ability to. Decide judiciously how much to bet, and when....show a little kindness, and you will be well liked and respected by virtually everyone...and that will give you confidence and courage to play at the top of your game.5)No matter what, win or lose, leave the table quietly, and with dignity. Don't curse if you've lost, don't gloat if you've won. Hey, I KNOW ILL BE BACK, just like Arnold Schwartznegger says ..I'm sure others have some insider secrets, but don't worry about getting banned...it is much, much tougher than it might seem!!!Oh, and that part about the casino host? I got up , gave her a big hug, and we chatted briefly...holding up the game in the process...not sure what everyone else thought...not sure they cared...but Everyone knew she was with the casino...and win or lose, I want as many of the casino staff on my side as I can get!( yes, I do understand what their job is...and I do understand my job is different...but, we can all " win")Really?Yeah, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOU30 Posted August 11, 2015 Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) What a GREAT POST... A truly honest and thoughtful person! It would be a pleasure to meet and know you in person Kevin... Maybe one day soon. Best wishes Lou. Edited August 12, 2015 by LOU30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Users brad01 Posted August 11, 2015 Users Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 Some really good posts there.A lot of valuable information for MDB+ members to read and learn (the quiet ones)Yes I don't want to turn this into a debate, I understand MDB+ has its place as well as NOR and everything else on this site.Well maybe good energy or something but just played this and made +7 flat betting being very aware of adjusting to shoe at hand:B313123112233113121311121132won a MDB+ after 4 x 2iar apart from that just NOR betsThanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Users LittleJim Posted August 11, 2015 Users Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 Keith Thanks for the video, It helped clear things up.Keep the Videos coming.LilttleJim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baccarat Hall of Fame Member kachatz1 Posted August 11, 2015 Baccarat Hall of Fame Member Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 OKeith and WAY2FAST if I read the triggers correctly, after 2 different ZZ of 4 bet, that the next ZZ of 3 stays @ 3 and does not go to a 4 ZZ.However on screencast, the way that you demonstrated you indicated that the 2 zigzags of 4ZZ or more is a trigger.According to the FULL WAY2FAST RULES posting #7, indicates that after 2 different zigzags of 4 ZZ without a 3 ZZ between this trigger stays a 3 ZZ. Example 5114 or 3114 Is this the correct way to play this trigger????Has anyone played MDB+ successfully @ a casino that deals regular cards?????????????Trillion- Took a quick look through some 4-5 year old cards, all played live B4 the advent of preshuffled...YES, I think it looks just as valid, especially so long as you use a progression.Random events are just that...RANDOM ( but you can still detect biases in parts of the shoe...)Biased shoes are just that...BIASED ( but you will often spot good MDB betting ops in parts of that shoe)And even with ShuffleMaster technocrats figuring out what to dish up for tonight's baccarat dinner, I still find NOR and MDB ops ( both of them) in many shoes.Good luck and hope this helps...as soon as I can get my laptop back from The Geek Squad, I'll show you how to play BOTH in the same shoe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashout Posted August 12, 2015 Report Share Posted August 12, 2015 I think what Brad is trying to say is there is a set of rules for MDB+ that Way2fast posted however is there more modifications thenjust going by those rules. Meaning if you see the shoe coming out a certain way you will not bet on certain triggers. His experience playstrictly by the rules have not been to favorable for him. I understand what he is saying. I also know that the best players on this forumare not playing strictly by the rules. They have taken things from the forum and modified them to were it wins consistently or more winsthen losses. Also I think he is asking what is a good starting bank roll, how many losing progressions average per how many shoes played. Exampleplayed 10 shoes and two shoes lost progression.. These are things to contribute if you are a successful player to help other players become better players. P.S. Hey Kevin whats up buddy.. I hope all is well. Still practicing the 4d.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Users brad01 Posted August 12, 2015 Users Report Share Posted August 12, 2015 I guess its human nature to assume whenever we cant get something to work for us we don't want to admit that maybe more practise and understanding is required and that the people that it is working for have just had this incredible stroke of luck in that the shoes they are playing are extremely well suited for MDB+ and we are so hard done by and the shoes we are playing are so not suited to MDB+In reality I think way2fast is right - MDB+ is based on mathematical randomness and it should work equally as well for biased shoes as factory preshuffled and the difference between the people that cant get it to work and the people that can is the fact that they have seen something we haven't and we just need more practice in adjusting to the shoe at hand.I have taken from this not to shoot down MDB+ or NOR in any circumstance but accept each has their place and can work together and its the player who must make them work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LENNY181 Posted August 13, 2015 Report Share Posted August 13, 2015 Keith,I am definitely in the "Like it" camp. I think that new tool screencast really makes a nice, easy to understand presentation. My only concern is--How will you find more interesting & useful topics for future presentations?? I am confident you will!!Lenny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVSeahog Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 LIke it?Sucks?No Comment hahahanything?KSKeith, Just got home from an extended western states vacation and watched the video tonight. Very informative on the triggers. It actually simplified some of the notes I have laying around here all the time. Thanks. MVS Quote What's an MVSeahog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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