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Million Dollar Webinar!


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Here's my answer and make my word I mean it:

Ellis,

I started this project to get you up and out again and to keep my promise to your wife Kathy to make sure you get him out and about. No one played together more than me and you over the years especially in the early 90s. I did the best I could, and I knew you had a lot to offer the gaming world. While at times I must admit I thought your ego got in the way a bit and was a bit quirky I thought it would work out.

This business model of lifetime membership does not work. It gets interpreted as, from this day forward anything you write or come up with must be given for free to all members. At least as far as I can see. Trying to generate revenue to support the forum, pay you for your time and spending countless hours marketing just does not pay any dividends to the business not to mention all the other costs associated with it. The only benefit is being able to expense out a trip here or there.

It seems all roads lead to some sort of ridicule for offering up different ideas not only by members but by me, or someone wants to claim the novelty for themselves instead of the group concept of continuous improvement. If no one can afford or wants to contribute to the ongoing support of the forum for whatever reason it cannot stay healthy and is doomed. We have members who joined in 06 at $500 as Norm always said, you do the math. We are endlessly trying to extract money for the business from current members just so the business survives (we have 377 NOR members) and it is a battle that is no longer worth it to me, quite honestly it never was. It doesn’t take any business experience or a degree to see that.

So you write about NOR and whatever else you see fit to but know that it will be for the love of the game only. Know that I will not offer any more seminars through BeatTheCasino.com. I’m done. I will not market it to try to get new members nor (no pun intended) will I do anything to support or otherwise enhance it. And most important I will not open myself up to this scorn trying to make a few bucks, so you aren’t getting paid unless we get new members or someone buys a BJ manual. Perhaps they will pay you directly with a donation for your time. If you feel like writing for hours daily, be my guest while everyone claims rights to everything we know or will come up collectively or individually.

I am so sick and tired of being threaten to be sued, (it’s an LLC by the way with no money but a few grand operating cash in it) constantly worrying daily if I can get two new members this month to send an old guy in AR a few bucks for his time cause his legs hurt so bad he can’t move or do anything else. Hesitantly trying to explain that yes we can do a seminar but when you have 10 -15 people at $250 sign up and it’s in Vegas we are operating it at a loss.

Begging people to refer people and not give them passwords to our videos and manuals (and by the way the statistics of the videos and file downloads prove this is rampant).

What we are guilty of is a stupid business model and there is nothing I can do to correct it. The asset of clients depreciating instead of appreciating as they will buy very little more due to perception of entitlement. There is no upsell possibility with the majority of members and that will not work. You need monthly income from members if you are supporting them on an ongoing basis. You cannot sustain that with new business only. If anyone else can come up with a solution let me know you can buy the place from me.

Oh, OK. But how come you're pissed at me? I'm doing my best to get you paid. And I think the guys are beginning to see the light. Nobody's gonna sue US. You only sue people that have money in the first place.

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Ellis,

You could try one of these:

http://www.brookstone.com/laser-projection-virtual-keyboard

That will never wear out....;o]

Speaking for myself what I've found to be the main issue is organization of the site. Particularly what I mentioned in my previous post (Teacher, Manual and Sample shoes) and a standardized location for all so that newbies can access using a common sense table of contents or the like.

When I joined my 1st impression was the site appeared to be hap-hazardly arranged. Other than the initial NOR manual all other questions had to be "dug up" by reading multiple threads. And the appearance of the ADOT, RD1 etc systems only added to the confusion. Are they viable systems still? if not why not archive them in an aptly named folder. If they can be incorporated into the latest systems, fine too. Same goes for the 2-2-1 Gaming Approach - is it something that can add value to the latest methods?

Lastly, I'm not blaming you for the way the 4D seminar turned out - I just really don't get how someone could have reviewed the final video cut and honestly say it was worthy of selling - as a 4D video. Yes, you covered Net Betting excellently, but with all the distractions / mistakes the 4D never got off the ground. I had such high hopes....

Thanks Glenn - I'll definitely get one and also thanks for your continued support and your ideas.

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Would you really want me to post your pm's about how badly you play and how you have asked me for help over the past few months trbfla???

Ya... I think you fall in the category of a member with more money than brains and join your friend Ruebel and gman7 now there's a real winner who doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about.

We all paid for what's inclusive to the NOR content... A lifetime membership and yet you guys just brush it off like it was nothing.

You guys are so weak. Pitiful followers who need help.

What I said was all FACTs but you can't handle the truth, that's why you are responding in such a manner as above.

BTW, thank you to all those members with their supportive comment in my pm box over the past 48 hrs. Especially about the member who purchased Twister and got burnt badly.

CC

I do not mind if you post my PM.....I am not moved by this at all. I am not ashamed at all to admit it.

I started my BTC membership Nov 28th and learned NOR and NOR+. Like all newbies, I encountered issues.

My local casino shoes were much different than others such as Gold Coast and Tunica. I did lose quite a bit trying to learn as we all do.

So I used the forum as it is intended and looked to network with other members in search of help.

This does not make me weak. It makes me humble and grateful. Many members here have helped me out and some continue to do so. They were very giving of their time and willing and eager to HELP OTHERS OUT since most people have been in the same place I was...new and just starting.

Some members continue to be a resource...its called relationship building and I am very grateful to the members who over the last 5 months who have helped me to improve my game and see that horses have no names when the 4d is rocking. THANK YOU GUYS......and gal.

Yes I did ask you for help. Yes, I did seek your guidance..but you flat out refused. You turned your back on others just starting only to feed your EGO.

and your arrogance. This is your right to do so.....I am happy that you have found a system that works. WHY are you still here?

I have heard your facts and really don't care one bit about them. I can handle the truth, what I cant handle is you continuing to try to imped others from learning by filling up forums with gossip.

You have issues with Ellis and continue to spew them here like a whiny gossiping 4th grader-this my friend makes you weak. Act like a man and handle your beef with Ellis like a gentleman would....if your capable of behaving as such.

I am here to learn and get better. You are already there congrads. We are all happy for you and wish you the best. We hope to one day be there as well.

I yell "winner winner chicken dinner on all naturals"

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Who are you threatening.if you're threatening kieth,you may as well be threatening all off us.if you're implying that you are one of the best bac players in the world.what would you want to be here wasting your time with idiots like me.you are to good for us.why are you wasting your time?

I noticed from this site that you are from canada.this is where obama got the great idea of free medical.canada has had it for many years.the problem with the medical is that it is not even half as good as what the usa has.get this now...............you don't have to pay for your medical you're entitled to it. Btc is not the canadian medical plan.why don't you just leave,you know everything anyway.

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Guys, no matter what direction this forum goes into now, please think about this. Ellis claims that what used to work to beat the casino baccarat game no longer works because of pre-shuffled shoes. So even how Ellis USED TO PLAY back in the day won't win anymore according to his argument. He even claims that NOR is obsolete now. His latest system or method is to learn how to win +5 units per shoe consistently and then progress your betting to reach a million dollars of profit within weeks (the time target does seems to be changing so who knows what it is now).

Wouldn't it make sense then for someone, preferably Ellis or Keith (the ones who are SELLING this idea) to test it out first to find out if what they say is even possible?

Would you pay for advice on how to become a millionaire in the CURRENT CONDITIONS of the stock market from somebody who just has a theory about how to do it? Or from someone who actually did it. Ellis claims he made gobs of money years ago playing baccarat, but according to him the game has completely changing sense then. It's quite comical really. If Ellis or Keith did the +5 unit a shoe million dollar program for real and were successful at it, then they could charge almost anything they wanted for access to the forum...but as it is, $10 a month was the last going rate I heard...how sad. But $10 a month is what you can expect for something that promises grandiose rewards with zero proof of accomplishment.

And if you think me as crass or ungrateful towards the BTC, just remember it wasn't that long ago the BTC was trying to sell a unproven "superbet" system for 5g's that very quickly unraveled into what we have left of the 4D today. Hell it isn't even being sold anymore, now that's a first ever sense I've been here.

Just be careful. That's all I'm saying.

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Ha, I still can't believe how these guys let themselves get led around by the nose by these Republicans.

How in God's name can they believe all this pure crap? Nobody is THAT weak minded.

When you get to be my age you can thank Obama that you have health insurance. Otherwise you wouldn't.

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Guys, no matter what direction this forum goes into now, please think about this. Ellis claims that what used to work to beat the casino baccarat game no longer works because of pre-shuffled shoes. So even how Ellis USED TO PLAY back in the day won't win anymore according to his argument. He even claims that NOR is obsolete now. His latest system or method is to learn how to win +5 units per shoe consistently and then progress your betting to reach a million dollars of profit within weeks (the time target does seems to be changing so who knows what it is now).

Wouldn't it make sense then for someone, preferably Ellis or Keith (the ones who are SELLING this idea) to test it out first to find out if what they say is even possible?

Would you pay for advice on how to become a millionaire in the CURRENT CONDITIONS of the stock market from somebody who just has a theory about how to do it? Or from someone who actually did it. Ellis claims he made gobs of money years ago playing baccarat, but according to him the game has completely changing sense then. It's quite comical really. If Ellis or Keith did the +5 unit a shoe million dollar program for real and were successful at it, then they could charge almost anything they wanted for access to the forum...but as it is, $10 a month was the last going rate I heard...how sad. But $10 a month is what you can expect for something that promises grandiose rewards with zero proof of accomplishment.

And if you think me as crass or ungrateful towards the BTC, just remember it wasn't that long ago the BTC was trying to sell a unproven "superbet" system for 5g's that very quickly unraveled into what we have left of the 4D today. Hell it isn't even being sold anymore, now that's a first ever sense I've been here.

Just be careful. That's all I'm saying.

Vic I'm not even going to read the rest of your post because it is pure crap. I've already explained in detail why the +5 works better than NOR in preshuffled cards. The difference with preshuffled is you are playing fixed cards where you can't depend on biases nearly as much as you can with regular cards. Can you not understand that? The +5 doesn't give a hoot about biases. It doesn't function on biases. So when any bias changes, we don't care. And one thing is for sure with preshuffled - the bias will change. Hundreds of players played this system for years. No table selection. Start every shoe at play 2 BECAUSE you don't have to wait until you detect a bias. The system doesn't care how a shoe is arranged so it makes no difference what the shoe designer had in mind or what the shoe does. This isn't NOR at all. We are simply betting that the shoe no matter how it's arranged can't beat a 9 bet 3 piece progression before you make +5. When your goal is only +5 its as close to a sure thing as you can get.

Changes the game has gone through are a big thing if you are trying to make +30. But they make absolutely no difference to a 9 bet progression. You can't have big losses because about 90% of your bets are only 1s and 2s.

This system has been proven thousands of times. The only complaint is it doesn't make many units. That is why we dropped it. And that is exactly why we increase our unit at predetermined levels - whatever you are comfortable with.

Vic, I didn't change the game. The casinos did. We can't keep playing as if the game was the same. That would be pure stupid. We have to pull back on the reins. If biases are no longer dependable, fine, we will no longer depend on them. We have to play what IS. Preshuffled cards are a fact of life.

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Quizzical1
Vic I'm not even going to read the rest of your post because it is pure crap. I've already explained in detail why the +5 works better than NOR in preshuffled cards. The difference with preshuffled is you are playing fixed cards where you can't depend on biases nearly as much as you can with regular cards. Can you not understand that? The +5 doesn't give a hoot about biases. It doesn't function on biases. So when any bias changes, we don't care. And one thing is for sure with preshuffled - the bias will change. Hundreds of players played this system for years. No table selection. Start every shoe at play 2 BECAUSE you don't have to wait until you detect a bias. The system doesn't care how a shoe is arranged so it makes no difference what the shoe designer had in mind or what the shoe does. This isn't NOR at all. We are simply betting that the shoe no matter how it's arranged can't beat a 9 bet 3 piece progression before you make +5. When your goal is only +5 its as close to a sure thing as you can get.

Changes the game has gone through are a big thing if you are trying to make +30. But they make absolutely no difference to a 9 bet progression. You can't have big losses because about 90% of your bets are only 1s and 2s.

This system has been proven thousands of times. The only complaint is it doesn't make many units. That is why we dropped it. And that is exactly why we increase our unit at predetermined levels - whatever you are comfortable with.

Ellis,

Are you saying NO table selection is needed? That's what I was hoping for from the 4D. If the new +5 system can do this - while being easier to maneuver than 4D - that would be a huge leap forward.

Regards,

Glenn

"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration...do your homework" Thomas A. Edison

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Guys, relax! The war is over. Shake hands and forget it. Keith asked for suggestions. Some guys made some already and so have I. That's the name of the game right now. We need a plan everyone can live with. We need a new approach and a new forum. Somehow or other we need to pay for that. I'm thinking the simpler the better. I'm thinking a one time charge is the simplest way with the least book keeping. If you want to do it over time on your own credit card, that is totally up to you. I'm thinking everyone can live with $150 and I think that number is more than fair. If you want a Webinar included, fine, we can do that too. We might have to break it up into several Webinars because we can only have so many at each session. At least that gives everyone a choice of various times. I think thats a good idea anyway because it gets everyone started on the same footing.

The Webinar itself can be free and non mandatory. What do you guys think?

BTW, that reminds me. On line casinos. I can't play them from Arkansas but as far as I know they are all still using regular cards. Is that right? I'm betting they always will because preshuffled is definitely not popular among players. That gives on line a leg up. It also gives NOR a major purpose. Some of the new guys are only interested in on line. Some of the old guys too.

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BaccDJ126

OK I'm away for a day and all hell breaks loose so!!!! was the atlantic city seminar cancelled due to insufficient attendance?? Are we having our Million Dollar Seminar on Monday April 19? why was the million dollar forum pulled? WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE lol!!!!!!!!! i read Keith lost it in Ellis pm. So where do we stand? is there or isnt there a seminar on the +5 method Ellis can you explain whats happening here..

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BaccDJ126

Damn if i would have waited 20 seconds more to post i would have gotten my answer...Ellis you can Join Bet Phoenix MVSeahog swears by that site and funding is easy you can use western union and if you deposit 300 they refund your sending fee....also dont get the bonuses they make you win a ridiculous amount before they release your money...once a month you can request a check for free to withdrawal

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Ellis,

Are you saying NO table selection is needed? That's what I was hoping for from the 4D. If the new +5 system can do this - while being easier to maneuver than 4D - that would be a huge leap forward.

Yeah, I thought about you when I wrote that. Me and Ann have played this thing a zillion times and we never used any table selection. We always started at play 2. We might be able to improve on that just a little. We might want to wait for a 2 to start. I'll have to give that some thought.

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Vic I'm not even going to read the rest of your post because it is pure crap. I've already explained in detail why the +5 works better than NOR in preshuffled cards. The difference with preshuffled is you are playing fixed cards where you can't depend on biases nearly as much as you can with regular cards. Can you not understand that? The +5 doesn't give a hoot about biases. It doesn't function on biases. So when any bias changes, we don't care. And one thing is for sure with preshuffled - the bias will change. Hundreds of players played this system for years. No table selection. Start every shoe at play 2 BECAUSE you don't have to wait until you detect a bias. The system doesn't care how a shoe is arranged so it makes no difference what the shoe designer had in mind or what the shoe does. This isn't NOR at all. We are simply betting that the shoe no matter how it's arranged can't beat a 9 bet 3 piece progression before you make +5. When your goal is only +5 its as close to a sure thing as you can get.

Changes the game has gone through are a big thing if you are trying to make +30. But they make absolutely no difference to a 9 bet progression. You can't have big losses because about 90% of your bets are only 1s and 2s.

This system has been proven thousands of times. The only complaint is it doesn't make many units. That is why we dropped it. And that is exactly why we increase our unit at predetermined levels - whatever you are comfortable with.

Vic, I didn't change the game. The casinos did. We can't keep playing as if the game was the same. That would be pure stupid. We have to pull back on the reins. If biases are no longer dependable, fine, we will no longer depend on them. We have to play what IS. Preshuffled cards are a fact of life.

Ellis if you had taken the time to read my post you would of seen that I agree with you. I think that your +5 is wonderful, why then won't you put your money where your mouth is and just play it? Surely the system creator is willing and ready to play his own system? If you did then your financial shortfall would be over and the pressure off to constantly trying new ways to make money from this forum. Surely playing +5 you can more money with that then you ever could with this forum. What am I missing here?

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BaccDJ126

Ellis there is free webinar recording software is really easy to record one session and make it available to everyone...with all the members here someone has to have that tech knowledge and look at all these you tube videos just use a video camera and take a you tube video is very simple and free

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Quizzical1
Ellis there is free webinar recording software is really easy to record one session and make it available to everyone...with all the members here someone has to have that tech knowledge and look at all these you tube videos just use a video camera and take a you tube video is very simple and free

Agreed - otherwise there's a helluva lot of rich 14 yr olds making videos....;o}

Regards,

Glenn

"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration...do your homework" Thomas A. Edison

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OK I'm away for a day and all hell breaks loose so!!!! was the atlantic city seminar cancelled due to insufficient attendance?? Are we having our Million Dollar Seminar on Monday April 19? why was the million dollar forum pulled? WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE lol!!!!!!!!! i read Keith lost it in Ellis pm. So where do we stand? is there or isnt there a seminar on the +5 method Ellis can you explain whats happening here..

Well first we waited until you were away. Basically we need a way to pay for a new forum. That's what it is all about. The dust is settling nicely but lets wait for it to settle completely for scheduling of events. Somebody really pissed Keith off. He's not as used to flak as I am. Might have been me but I think he just sounds that way. If I did, I certainly didn't mean to.

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Ellis there is free webinar recording software is really easy to record one session and make it available to everyone...with all the members here someone has to have that tech knowledge and look at all these you tube videos just use a video camera and take a you tube video is very simple and free

Yeah, Keith has been experimenting. I don't know if he's got the one he likes best yet or not.

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Ellis if you had taken the time to read my post you would of seen that I agree with you. I think that your +5 is wonderful, why then won't you put your money where your mouth is and just play it? Surely the system creator is willing and ready to play his own system? If you did then your financial shortfall would be over and the pressure off to constantly trying new ways to make money from this forum. Surely playing +5 you can more money with that then you ever could with this forum. What am I missing here?

Oh, OK my bad. I'm really getting too old to play. Can't walk much anymore. For me, the fun went out of it a long time ago. I'd really rather teach others even though that doesn't make nearly the money it used to.

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Quizzical1
Oh, OK my bad. I'm really getting too old to play. Can't walk much anymore. For me, the fun went out of it a long time ago. I'd really rather teach others even though that doesn't make nearly the money it used to.

Hell Ellis, if you give a system that wins consistently I'd gladly mail you a cut of it every week. That way we all win. I can't speak for anyone else on here but I personally was trying to have a goal to be able to leave my job at some point to pursue an income from this.

Pipe dreams? Maybe...

Regards,

Glenn

"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration...do your homework" Thomas A. Edison

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Hell Ellis, if you give a system that wins consistently I'd gladly mail you a cut of it every week. That way we all win.

Ouch. That seems to suggest that NOR and all the other systems haven't been winning consistently. Ah the good o'days back in 2010-2012 when NOR used to kick ass. I miss them.

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This is sad for all us loyal followers. As I said in post #32 - (Realize that Ellis and Keith can abandon us at will). Well it is starting to happen.

Some of our Forum "antagonists" are idiots. There is a gold mine right in our back yard, and we cannot even see it. The potential money we can make far exceeds the cost required to learn and keep learning.

As Ellis said "guys that are overly concerned about $150 to learn what I've learned over 30 years don't have the money to play anyway". I'll add to that; if you cannot comprehend the cost of doing business, how in the hell can you comprehend a winning strategy.

I strongly believe in the First Amendment (free speech) but not when there are "antagonists" it is pure rudeness.

Every, lets start to behave as winners.

I think I will start taking trips to Tunica now, instead of Biloxi. Ellis, I hope to run into you at the table.

Be a Tracker and Hunt wisely!

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speculator9

After reading this thread, I sent Keith & Ellis a PM to express my support for their continuing to make available new methods of baccarat, even if they have an additional subscription price or monthly fee. I am now posting an edited version of that letter. I hope other members of like mind will speak up and encourage Ellis and Keith to continue. Education at any level has a cost (Colleges charge for each and every course taken to get a degree, not a flat everything included fee) and my opinions are stated below. If you cannot make back every penny these education costs, many times over at the baccarat table, then I suggest those members go find themselves another game to lose at.

Keith & Ellis

For what it is worth, I think that some of the comments recently posted on the Million Dollar Webinar topic were way out of line, especially those from (unnamed). I do not agree with any of them, and it is my opinion that these members suffer from Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

(here is the Wikipedia link if you are unfamiliar with it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder)

I have never found any of these complaining or the "I know something you don't know" posts to be either useful or of any value. That being said, I was dismayed both your post (although I can understand it) and that the 04/21/14 seminar link is now inactive.

As you know, I have attended, almost without exception, all the baccarat seminars that have been held in Las Vegas since I joined in 12/2011 and as well most of the webinars. Although several of them have been chaotic (the 4D was the worst) I have always come away with useful information and feel that the prices charged to NOR members have always been fair.

Please consider all the above as a somewhat rambling prelude. What I am trying to say is that I have always supported you and Ellis financially, through the BTC Forum, and had planned to continue to do so. If you can see your way clear to ignore the boorish people that seem to inhabit certain types of cyberspace, and reinstitute the planned BTC activities, that would be great since I would hate to lose out on any of the further systems that Ellis is developing.

However, if you feel the need to move on to a new forum, with a different financial structure, please let me know. If they are not priced out of my reach (Macau definitely was, but most others have been very reasonable), you can count on one regular attendee and subscriber. I never had any problem with the proposed $10 monthly subscription fee or one that might have been somewhat higher. As a retired CPA and tax attorney, I agree with your analysis that your "Lifetime" business model could never have worked and that you deserve compensation for the new methods that you teach.

Should you reconsider and ignore those BTC idiots, I would love to be a member of the new subscription forums and I am sure you would find enough of the 377 current members that agree with me to make it worthwhile for Ellis. Or start another forum, subscription only, and allow those people who are truly interested in what you and Ellis teach to migrate there from BTC.

No matter what you and Ellis decide, I hope it is in the direction of continue to teach those who want to learn. I have learned more about playing baccarat in the last two years from Ellis, than I learned in the previous 20. I am still not the player I want to be, nor at the betting size level I would like, so I hope to continue being a disciple.

Thanks for everything.

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OK, with that issue I partially agree. But, keep in mind the cost they already spent renting the space to impart their knowledge.

Both Ellis and Kieth were unable to teach and get up to speed with mostly an audience of newbies.

Be a Tracker and Hunt wisely!

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