Newbie here....Can anyone suggest the best method to learn the NOR System correctly?

[Quizzical1]

Hi All,

Just finished the NOR manual and Keith suggested I post a thread here to get suggestions on how to proceed from here. Can anyone please chime in?

Thanks,

Glenn

[MVSeahog]

Hi All,

Just finished the NOR manual and Keith suggested I post a thread here to get suggestions on how to proceed from here. Can anyone please chime in?

Thanks,

Glenn

Glenn,

Read. Read everything. Then keep reading.

Not just the new threads as they come up, but go back and read the older material.

Read, search and read it again.

Most people have found that going back in time and reading what the others have posted, both questions and answers, will make a lot of the material make a lot more sense.

It's something that has been said many, many times here.

READ as much as you can as often as you can.

I still go back to double check things that I need to remember or brush up on.

In fact, I just went back to check on a play method from 2009 to make sure it was being applied correctly to a few things today.

You really can't go wrong reading the material over and over.

MVS

[Quizzical1]

Thanks MVS,

Is there a sample score card you are aware of that I can reference that shows a play-by-play to see:

1. When to start betting (e.g @ + or -3 OR count).

2. When to change to OTB4L?

etc......

I think if there were example cards to view I could grasp the concepts even better.

Glenn

[Edgonsal]

Thanks MVS,

Is there a sample score card you are aware of that I can reference that shows a play-by-play to see:

1. When to start betting (e.g @ + or -3 OR count).

2. When to change to OTB4L?

etc......

I think if there were example cards to view I could grasp the concepts even better.

Glenn

If you go to the upper right hand corner and type "practice shoes" in the Advanced Search box - you should find some shoes there to learn from. Read everything that's offered and you'll be on the right track. Good luck!!!!

[Abby N]

Glenn,

Read. Read everything. Then keep reading.

Not just the new threads as they come up, but go back and read the older material.

Read, search and read it again.

Most people have found that going back in time and reading what the others have posted, both questions and answers, will make a lot of the material make a lot more sense.

It's something that has been said many, many times here.

READ as much as you can as often as you can.

I still go back to double check things that I need to remember or brush up on.

In fact, I just went back to check on a play method from 2009 to make sure it was being applied correctly to a few things today.

You really can't go wrong reading the material over and over.

MVS

I am a new member and have been reading and learning..I have found that I dream about playing bacarrat! It is getting clearer in my mind and the more I read, the more I understand! I've been playing on betphoenix with "fun money" and have found that now that I know how to play NOR and NOR+, I win most shoes. I'm going to a b&m casino Thursday and will post a report on how things go.

Thanks to everyone on this website! And Hello to Ellis - you are my new hero! Glad to hear you are feeling better! Rest up and we all hope to see your responses soon.

Abby N

[Quizzical1]

Thanks Abby,

Having read through it all, can you steer me to a good starting point? Or looking back is there a section you would have rather started reading first?

I'm still searching for sample cards that show each method to see how / when to start betting and when to shift methods (S40 to F etc).

For example, I have a copy of "72 hours at the Baccarat Table" which includes 600 actual shoes. If I start to play from the beginning of a shoe:

When do I start betting? Is it when the OR count is at least + a certain amount for S40 or - a certain amount for F or do you start with OTB4L until the OR count is above "x" either + or -?

Regards,

Glenn

[kachatz1]

Here's another tip to accelerate your learning curve, in addition to reading through the threads, as MVS suggested.

As you read through the threads, you will discover who the NOR players are...

Click on their name...it will give you the option to see all their posts.

Next, once you are on that NOR players " home page" and you are reading his/ her posts, as you identify a post of interest or something you are not sure about, click on that post and you will be connected to the thread in which that post appears, where there will be additional information on that very topic.

And always, when you see something of importance, write it in your manual next to the topic it applies to...that way you'll have everything in one place for future reference. Also, just the mere act of writing it down will help you remember it better...

[Quizzical1]

Thank you kachatz1,

Let me preface this by stating - I mean no disrespect to anyone - but I still have to wonder why the additional info you describe needs to be searched out and cherry picked vs just updating the manual as you go along to include the latest revisions / additions. Seems to me it would make learning the system a lot easier if it was all in one place - along with sample shoes played out to show the methods in action.

Regards,

Glenn

[Abby N]

Thanks Abby,

Having read through it all, can you steer me to a good starting point? Or looking back is there a section you would have rather started reading first?

Glenn - I won't be much help with specific questions - I see some of the experienced members have already given you great advice - which I plan to follow as well. I can tell you that I started reading all the information on the public forum - every page - before I became a member. There is a lot of information to be found and pieced together.

Every evening I am on the members bacarat forum - mostly still reading the NOR thread. I have three notebooks of practice shoes and notes. It takes a lot of time. I'll see if I am on the right track when I go "live" at the casino. From all I've read so far and from all my practice, I should be able to walk away with 10 units per shoe, as long as I stay professional and use what I have learned.

I have to admit - even though NOR works for me in practice, I'm anxious to see if I can do it for real. I sure hope to make back my membership fee and then never look back! Casino Here I Come!

Abby N

[kachatz1]

Glenn - I won't be much help with specific questions - I see some of the experienced members have already given you great advice - which I plan to follow as well. I can tell you that I started reading all the information on the public forum - every page - before I became a member. There is a lot of information to be found and pieced together.

Every evening I am on the members bacarat forum - mostly still reading the NOR thread. I have three notebooks of practice shoes and notes. It takes a lot of time. I'll see if I am on the right track when I go "live" at the casino. From all I've read so far and from all my practice, I should be able to walk away with 10 units per shoe, as long as I stay professional and use what I have learned.

I have to admit - even though NOR works for me in practice, I'm anxious to see if I can do it for real. I sure hope to make back my membership fee and then never look back! Casino Here I Come!

Abby N

Abby-

Your membership fee will seem like nothing once you are playing NOR comfortably...

I would suggest you read up on things like session bankroll, lifetime bankroll, unit size and carefully evaluate using progressions versus flat betting, especially in the beginning of your endeavors

Also, especially until you get comfortable, recommend you do not take more to the casino than you could afford to lose in a single session....placing larger amounts of chips ($$$) on the table may earn you an extra small token comp here or there, but real casino conditions will likely leave you a lot more flustered than playing online...

Always, always remember Norm A.'s advice..." when in doubt, sit it out". ( or something to that effect!)

Reminder in BAC you do NOT have to play every hand, or even every other hand unless you are really comfortable with the table, the shoe, the casino conditions, your general attitude, how you feel that day , etc.

Just like a good poker player folds 70-90% of their hands, you will really understand what I am talking about once you Are at the casino using your real money...

Good luck to you and all!

[LOU30]

Hi Glen, i have just got to go to work for a few hours I'll be back on about 22.00 GMT,Hope i can help you then.

[Quizzical1]

Thank you LOU30,

I'm all ears...(eyes) LOL....

I have been doing some reading "from the ground up" so to speak and am curious:

1. Is the System 40 Advanced Manual from 1/7/11 still valid?

2. Is the Amazing System One still used (was it ever other than by Baccarat King)? Seemed like a nice way to play w/o using a detailed score card.

3. Where does ADOT and RD1 fit in since my manual only described F2, System 40 and OTB4L?

Regards,

Glenn

[bluetri]

Glenn, I look at the past systems as part of an evolution. As Ellis has alluded to many times, we can ALWAYS improve. Even NOR, the very best way to play

baccarat, is still evolving. That is where NOR+ and the newest improvements (s40 mode 1 and the new third bet rule) come from. As it is good to know where

we came from, it's more important to stay focused on where we are now and where we are headed. Your NOR manual and the peeps in the forum will "stop the bleeding", practice and more practice will lead to a level of competence where you will consistently win. Then, only you will decide how good your game will be.

[Quizzical1]

Thanks blutri,

I'm just trying to optimize my reading time w/o rehashing old techniques that are no longer used. I read the entire Amazing System One thread thru to its entirety only to find that it is now defunct?

It would be nice to have a clearer guidance as to what is most relevant to read to get me "on my feet" ASAP and what is nice reference material for later.

Regards,

Glenn

[LOU30]

Hi Glen, As you can see all the members are here to help you! There's not a question that hasn't been asked and answered before by members of the forum so your in good hands.

First off:Look for all the posts that start with(Hi am new here) that are dated this year 2013 because all us newbies generally ask the same questions and they will refer to the NOR Manual to date.

Some good posts: On page 2 of the NOR forum their are very good posts by Kphawaii on S40,F and OTB4L scenarios also NOR Manual Questions.

Example games: http://www.beatthecasino.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6665 (look for this link in the post nor manual questions)its for the 6 example shoes by Ellis.

Stick to the NOR Manual for now while you are learning all that's in it,Put in the study time and put the systems,modes and the mode changes in to play and see how they play on paper.Practice the shoes against the different systems to see how they compare,As Ellis said after a few practice shoes it will start to make sense.For now i would say stay away from NOR+ and 4D until you learn the basics of NOR stick to the rules and REMEMBER we can't beat every shoe!While you are practicing i can't state how IMPORTANT table selection is so be careful in the shoes you select to play and don't just play any old shoe!

Hope this helps you.

[Quizzical1]

Thanks LOU30,

I appreciate all you - and the others on here - are doing to help me.

Glenn

[CdnChamer]

Hey Glen, I know how frustrating the learning curve can be as we were all at the same place as you one time or another. As you practice and then play live, you will continue to learn and believe me, you will make mistakes just as I did and some will be costly, it's all in the learning curve.

Study study study, practice, I'm sure you heard it all before.

Don't give up, before you know it, you will operate quickly with confidence in due time. A word of caution....you need to also control your confidence as well. It will catch you off guard one day.

Hope you do well and keep at it.

CC

[Quizzical1]

Thanks CC,

The more I re-read the manual it is starting to become clearer though I'm sure I'll be posting more questions in a bit lol...

Glenn

[LOU30]

Hi Glen, Here's a good post on the 3rd bet rule by Ellis.

Default Re: Nor+

Quote Originally Posted by Rich333 View Post

Hey guys, sorry to bring this up but i tend to overthink things...3rd bet rule again..ughh.

For example if we are playing in mode 2 ,..lose 2 bets..go OTR for 3rd bet and win it...we remain in mode2, and only switch to mode 3 when we lose that OTR bet? Is this right? Am i trying to make this too difficult...lol

Well, you are right as far as you go but I don't think you are yet grasping the big picture of the 3rd bet rule.

The 3rd bet rule is simple enough: When you win your 3rd bet you are in the right Mode. When you lose your 3rd bet you are in the wrong mode - so change modes then and there for the next run.

BUT, recognize that your 3rd bet is your 3rd bet regardless if it was OTR (mode 2) or ATR (Against the run) (Mode 3).

It isn't ANY 3 bets - It is the 3rd bet from the start of a new progression.

So what constitutes the start of a new progression?

Well first, you can't start a new progression OTR. You don't count any OTR bets.

Your first bet is after any winning ATR bet - you are now starting a new progression.

But also any time you are coming off a run, you are starting a new progression regardless whether you won or lost your OTR bet.

Your first bet is ALWAYS a regular system bet. OTR bets do not count, win or lose.

I think this may be why players are thinking long runs are the end of the world with OTB4L. They are not a problem when played correctly. Watch my lips: OTB4L has no problem with runs when we stick to the rules.

OK, lets say the worst happens: Lets say we hit a long run in mode 3 - a 14iar

Lets say we lose a 2 bet along side of the first circle of the 14 - draw this out.

So OK, we are betting 3 on the second circle of the run (We ALWAYS Win the 2nd circle of a run with OTB4L)

Now we lose the 123 against the run because we are in mode 3.

Then we win the 4 OTR at the 6th circle of the run. But we are now in mode 2 because we lost our 3rd bet.

So we lose our 2,3 ATR and win our 4,2 OTR (We stay OTR for 2 bets in mode 2)

Then we lose our 1,2 ATR and win our 3,1 OTR. Then we win our 1 ATR.

Now count your score starting with the winning 3 bet on the 2nd circle.

You'll see that you are at +4.

So much for your fear of long runs.

So OK, you would have done better if you stayed OTR. But how often do you see 14s? In fact, how often do you see runs longer than 6?

Join us from the above links

BeatTheCasino.com

[LOU30]

More Good Work By The Boss,

Quote Originally Posted by BacPlayer View Post

Does it mean because we are in Mode 3 we should continue 3 times in the losing side before going to OTR side?

Yes, in all 3 NOR systems modes are played exactly the same way:

Mode 2 means go OTR after 2 losing bets and stay OTR for 2 bets if you win the first OTR bet until staying OTR for 2 bets proves wrong.

Recognize that in all 3 Nor systems, the only way to lose 2 bets in a row is against a run. Now the question is, do we go OTR (Mode 2) or do we bet against the run one more time (Mode 3)???

Mode 3 means go OTR after 3 losing bets but stay OTR for only ONE bet because you got on the run so late. But again if staying OTR for only 1 bet proves wrong it is best for the next run to stay OTR until you lose.

Now, which mode to be in is controlled by the 3rd bet rule which simply says if you lose your 3rd bet whether it be OTR (Mode 2) or ATR (Against the run) (Mode 3) you are in the WRONG mode nomatter which mode you were in so change modes for the next run.

However later in the shoe, once we have attempted several OTR bets, we go with which ever way won the 3rd bet the most times.

Now, sometimes our 3rd bet rule is wrong every time. In S40 this happens when 3s are exactly interlaced with 4+s. In that rare case we pick the mode that won the most and simply stay in that mode no matter what.

Another guideline is that Mode 2 is best for streaky shoes (long runs) and Mode 3 is best for chop. (short runs)

All of these Mode rules are simply so you don't have to go back and count runs. But they amount to the same thing as counting 3s (Mode 3) vs 4 or mores (Mode 2) in S40 and:

4s (Mode 3) vs 5 or mores (Mode 2) in OTB4L.

We think the 3rd bet rule is easier and it gives you the exact same result. The 3rd bet rule automates SAP (counting runs by length) but a handful of players prefer to use SAP since they understand it. But for most of us the 3rd bet rule is simplest. You either won your 3rd bet (right mode) or you lost it (wrong mode)

Now, we say "3rd bet" rather than "3 bet" because once you graduate from NOR's 123 4 prog (where all winning bets go back to 1) up to NOR+'s U1D2 betting, (You go down 2 after a winning bet) your 3rd bet is not always a 3 bet.

Yes, Mode rules seem very "tangled" the first time or two BUT, once you see HOW they work and more importantly WHY they work and have a few shoes under your belt, Modes will become automatic for you and all of this initial confusion will seem funny because Modes are really simple once you get the hang of our simplified rules. 3rd bets decide EVERYTHING and there are only 2 things that can happen - you either win them (stay in same mode) or lose them (change modes) and the 3rd bet rule is right no matter which side you bet it on. A little practice goes a long way.

The only thing I didn't cover is which mode to start with???

If you are starting mid shoe, which all new students SHOULD be doing, You can tell the correct mode from the shoe history.

But as you get better, especially after learning to use prior shoe history, You find yourself starting ealier and earlier - even before we have 3rd bet history. It is somewhat arbitrary but experience has taught us to start OTB4L in mode 3 and S40 in mode 2 until the shoe proves otherwise.

F strong side, Starting in Mode 3 is right most often.

F because of long straight runs on BOTH sides, Mode 2 is right most often.

But here's the thing: right now you are not yet seeing the overall picture. Once you do, The whole Mode thing becomes very obvious.

(Glen all so refer to the new mode starts just to bring this post to date)

[Quizzical1]

Thanks LOU30

[ECD]

I just purchased the NOR manual. I have to say....it is quite confusing. Does anyone have any recordings of a class?

[Guest]

I just purchased the NOR manual. I have to say....it is quite confusing. Does anyone have any recordings of a class?

Hi McVince! Welcome to the forum. Everyone is totally confused the first few days and your manual won't make much sense at first. Browse around the forum and get a handle on how it's set up. You'll be getting emails daily alerting you to new postings. The guys can tell you better than me how to get started. As you get used to our lingo, go back and reread the manual now and then. The light bulbs will start turning on soon enough.

[Quizzical1]

Thank you Mr Davis,

And glad to see you are feeling better.

McVince - I was also confused at first. What helped me immensely is to reread the manual and make separate "cliff notes" on all the main points so you can reference them at-a-glance. I have it down to two sheets. The light bulb will start to come on. Then pull up the six sample shoe located here:

http://www.beatthecasino.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6665&page=2

that LOU30 posted (thank you LOU30) on this thread a few days back. Compare them to your notes as you follow along noting that marks in RED are when they go into OTR Mode 2 or 3 as indicated.

Play them thru a few times and you will start to get it. I'm nowhere near proficient yet (only joined a few days ago) but am starting to get the rationale of the Method.

Hope this helps,

Glenn

[CdnChamer]

Thank you Mr Davis,

And glad to see you are feeling better.

McVince - I was also confused at first. What helped me immensely is to reread the manual and make separate "cliff notes" on all the main points so you can reference them at-a-glance. I have it down to two sheets. The light bulb will start to come on. Then pull up the six sample shoe located here:

http://www.beatthecasino.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6665&page=2

that LOU30 posted (thank you LOU30) on this thread a few days back. Compare them to your notes as you follow along noting that marks in RED are when they go into OTR Mode 2 or 3 as indicated.

Play them thru a few times and you will start to get it. I'm nowhere near proficient yet (only joined a few days ago) but am starting to get the rationale of the Method.

Hope this helps,

Glenn

for easier notation I use red pen for 'OTR" bet units for easy identification for looking back to see if the 2nd OTR bet won or not. This is useful information for future bets of OTR. I also use RED pen for negative integers for all score tracking for NOR and 4D.

CC