Bet Phoenix "Cutting it short"

[Norm A]

I don't have a scanner so I won't be able to post any shoes.

I see, perhapes one of the other experanced Maverick players can play it and post the score card to see how it was played, with Maverick and Ultimate so that I see the differance.

Thanks

NormA

.

Thanks

NormA

[Baccplay]

MVS, I think it's time for you to demonstrate your skill on Maverick, if you have time, please play the shoe I posted so that others can see. Thanks so much.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Baccplay

[Mreteuya]

From: E. Clifton Davis

That is all VERY EXCELLENT advice Mark. But how many can remember all that during the heat of casino play?

I'm thinking we can use a SAP chart to simplify and automate a lot of that.

One other thing, you mentioned that if all your SAP numbers tie, don't bet. That was a good idea when playing SAP but here is something I've noticed. In a dead neutral shoe, OTB4L is quite strong. Remember? I called that "overlap".

I think Ellis finallly sees how it hard it would be. He is so smart that, doing all of that is so easy for him, that I figure its hard for him to relate to how difficult it would be for us.

My response was:

Aha ~ exactly my point. You hit the nail on the head. How can anyone learn 4-5 different systems, and SAP and then on top of that try to incorporate that into live play?

That is exactly why I listed the Exploit Options in Maverick is for advanced members only. There is no way a new person could start playing that way.

However, a new person certainly CAN learn RD-Hybrid (only 2 rules) and F-2 (only 2 rules), and they only lose to one thing each.

Then simply keeping an eye continously on the last 7 plays, keeping an eye out for

really only 3 things to determine when to switch between the two.

• What has won the majority of the last 7 plays? RD-H or F Series?

• Disparity - Player/Banker and RD-H chart. (If P/B disparity is > 4 = F-series)

• SAP Chart. (If 2's are > 3s = F3. If 3's > 2's = F2)

I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone when I say we would love it if there was a way you

could find some simple, practical way to tweek Maverick to avoid losing 4 in a row. That is why

we all signed up here in the first place, was for your expertise.

Maybe, (now no one rush out and do this) after a loss, perform Maverick Evaluation, (which includes the SAP chart)

to determine which 'side' to resume on and which system.

Ellis replied: "Right, a very good point. It is good for beginners to start with something simple like F2-3 or OTB4L.

And its good to have a simplified version of Maverick for that purpose."

I think he said he is going to try and see what he can do to come up with a simple, practical, duplicatable solution. I for one am anxiously waiting.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Mreteuya

[ECD]

From: E. Clifton Davis

That is all VERY EXCELLENT advice Mark. But how many can remember all that during the heat of casino play?

I'm thinking we can use a SAP chart to simplify and automate a lot of that.

Etc

Mark, I don't think you are giving yourself enough smarts credit. Remember, I've had 30 years to digest all this stuff. You've had what? Two. I just reviewed your Maverick Mechanical. That is quite a piece of work. Think of it as seen thru the eyes of someone that just learned how to spell Baccarat yesterday. You look like a freaking genius. I remember how lost you were on YOUR first day.

Look, you are already requiring a SAP chart to play Maverick correctly anyway. So lets assume the Maverick players have already gone back and learned how to set up their SAP chart.

Maybe we need a quick review of that under Maverick if you haven't already done that.

But a SAP chart is extremely simple to set up.

So youre already having them go thru those gyrations.

But then you're telling them its only for F2.

I'm thinking that since we've gone through the effort of learning and constructing a SAP chart anyway, why not use it for more. Every item that can be decided by the SAP chart is one less item that needs to be committed to memory.

I think the hardest part of Maverick is all that you are asking them to decide from the last 7 plays. That is easy for you but the last 7 plays will be Greek to some with less understanding of the overall picture.

I'm thinking that it might be easier for some to let the SAP Chart dictate these decisions since it is already there in front of them. I'm thinking we might simplify everything by elaborating on the meaning of the SAP Chart entries and the meaning of the C/S count as it applies to Maverick similar to the way you began to do in your previous post. I think the more we eliminate judgement calls the better off we are.

Yes, I realize you went from 4 losses to two but I'm questioning the whole practice of using ANY set number of losses to base important decisions on only when the SAP chart is telling you differently and I have no idea of how often that will come up. But I know that the SAP chart was pretty darn good at decision making as we were using it to play SAP. I'm hoping it will be more accurate than our own judgement when it comes to the question of which system is best right now regardless if we won the last bet or not. I'm hoping we can use it for that purpose since we already went through the effort of constructing it. SAP had a very high hit rate even when flat betting.

I'm also hoping we can enlist Andrea's help since he was the most knowledgeable SAP player we had.

A SAP Chart can only have so many variations and each variation points to ONE optimum component system regardless of the number of losses incurred. Can it tell us everything? I doubt it but I think it can tell us a lot esp in conjunction with the C/S count.

[wolfat]

Hi guys!

about what Ellis said, I'm ready to help, but I need to know more, I mean what are you looking for? What are we trying to fix?

...Last but not least I'm still playing ADOT with success!

andrea

[Mreteuya]

Hi guys!

about what Ellis said, I'm ready to help, but I need to know more, I mean what are you looking for? What are we trying to fix?

...Last but not least I'm still playing ADOT with success!

andrea

wow, amazing. I don't know how you do that? I thought you were still playing NU-SAP? Are you mostly in OTB4L mode? and or incorporating SAP on quite a few of the plays, because with the AD part isn't it just so random isn't it? I mean there is no identifiable winning or losing situation/pattern correct? Every time I played it, or anyone like the average person play, the results were sporadic to say the least. But then again, I also know that you are definitely not just the average player. You are one of the best in the world

[ECD]

Thanks Andrea! I'm happy to hear of your success with ADOT. Even though I invented SAP, you were always the best SAP player. Also. our friend PJ was always the best at using the SAP chart for system selection. So I'm hoping PJ can help too.

Mark has done an excellent job of creating Maverick and messaging it into a workable system. You will need to review the Maverick threads. Mark has done a good job at selecting strong modern component systems for Maverick that blend together well. Personally I would like to see more incorporation of Sys 40 as I know it to be the strongest chop system in the world. But Mark has come up with perhaps the very best uses of F2-3 and RD1 which are also very strong streak systems. This blending of our strongest streak and chop systems gets us to the point that there is a best system to be playing at every point in the shoe if we react fast enough.

It's all new technology except I consider using a set number of losses to trigger a switch as old technology.

I'm thinking the system selection method could be stronger. You can get what I'm trying to propose in this thread. I'm hoping we can use the SAP counts together with the C/S count to pinpoint the optimum system immediately after every event whether we have sustained losses or not. Recognize that Mark is already incorporating SAP and C/S anyway.

The objective is this: We want to use the system selection triggers that incur the fewest incidences of 4 or more losses in a row. Can we invoke the SAP chart to do this best? THat is the first question of the moment but it brings up our second question. How? AND, can we make the whole thing simpler than it already is in the process? Recognize that I'm not trying to invoke SAP to dictate the next play - only the best system to be playing after every event. I'm looking for the same kind of innovative thinking we went through when we perfected SAP.

I'll bet you are sorry you turned your computer on today. Also, can you get PJ to help us?

I'm thinking this may end up being extremely important work.

Edited July 13, 2010 by ECD

[Baccplay]

Ellis, I've posted up one shoe for you to demonstrate. In case you missed it, here's the shoe again:

B1122171131

B5121121214

B21113151212

P123

Plus, SAP is not perfected. If it is, there will not be more versions like SAP-Hybrid, NU-SAP. You get kill if you play SAP on neutral shoes. Please note, I'm talking about the SAP when it was developed 2 years ago and claimed that it's finished.

Anyway, I think we are all dying to see a sample shoe from you Ellis.

[ECD]

Demonstrate what? Do you think a SAP Chart method of System selection is going to strangely appear out of thin air?

At this point its just an idea. It needs to be developed. I'm sorry you had trouble with SAP at your local casino but sometimes you need to go by what does best at a given casino at a given time. That is how I play and teach. That is one of the reasons it is always good to have multiple systems down pat. All of the guys playing it on the Vegas trip won as Andrea can confirm. But at Gold Coast it was far too choppy for SAP. So we played Sys 40 and killed them. I liked SAP for night play at my casino but not for morning play - too choppy. But I'm not talking about the SAP system, I'm only talking about using the chart. The SAP chart is just an organized way of counting events and comparing them to normal occurrence and each other. But every system in Maverick has its own event likes and dislikes. Those likes and dislikes appear loud and clear in the SAP chart. For instance, OTB4L likes high 2s and 3s and low 1's while SYS 40 likes high 1's and 2's with low 3 or mores. F2 likes streak and everything but 2s. F3 likes everything but 3s. RD1 likes high repeats and so forth. The SAP chart tells us all those things with dead accuracy and renews the information about 32 times during the shoe. The C/S count tells us whether we should be favoring the chop systems or the streak systems and to exactly what degree. Or we could go by a certain number of losses.

Rather than sit back and appraise only when we are already in trouble, why not appraise throughout the shoe? But I don't want to argue the point. That is for lesser forums and not what BTC is about.

Edited July 13, 2010 by ECD

[Baccplay]

Ellis, I know exactly what my local casino is doing and trust me, my experience on SAP is no lesser than PJ or Andrea. I know we'll need to switch when certain counts from the SAP chart is hinting us but how many of the members here can do what you said? Just because a few of us can do it doesn't mean everyone can do it. I know there are still certain members that have joined your forum for couple years now and still having trouble with SAP. Is this what you want, to develop and sell some systems that only a few can play?

As with your idea now, how long does it take for your idea to turn into something practical this time? Since you are the master and with the most experience on Baccarat, isn't it you should already have something in mind which is playable before you throw out your idea?

[gablaw]

Something strange at BPH just now. The joker came out in a streaky shoe (6 4 16 12) at play 38. Then a full-fledged wash in the middle of the day. Methinks they're looking for chop! I guess no regulation in CR.

[TomM]

Something strange at BPH just now. The joker came out in a streaky shoe (6 4 16 12) at play 38. Then a full-fledged wash in the middle of the day. Methinks they're looking for chop! I guess no regulation in CR.

Did you see the whole shoe ? The reason I'm asking is a morning shoe today started 11:44 am EST today had a glitch and at hand # 8 I had just recorded and was about to bet and I looked away and when I looked back the board was erased and the history too. I don't recall exactly what I thought at the time as I was just sippin coffee and getting going. But I continued recording as if nothing had happened and the shoe went SAP 11, 10, 16, 24 and the shoe ended on hand #68. Had I not seen the beginning of the shoe erased I would have figured it as a 60 hand shoe. It was a nice balanced streaker as it was, longest straight run 7R, three 5's a 6R and a 4R . It was an easy shoe for RD-H the whole way even with the four lone 1's.

I haven't seen any short shoes lately but plenty of washing, some double team washes and occasionally a single dealer will wash at any time of day. I don't know their criteria for the shuffle changes now. Even though I have not seen a short shoe lately they may slip one in on occasion. Play cautiously if you do not see the whole shoe.

The nickel table froze up on me this morning so I turned on fun mode and played T-2 ( the $500.00 minimum job.) Both shoes pretty good. I flipped into my conservative progression and both shoes ended at +14.5. Really bumped up my fun account in a big hurry. Also the game moved along at the normal pace of about 1hour and 10 or 15 minutes per shoe. Maybe that was because the other table was down the whole time and they had more bandwidth to run the single table. I don't know. T-1 is back up and running now.

UPDATE: Oy, I just dropped into the nickel table at Bph and it is a about ½ way done. Has a nice OTB4L start then 13 Banks in a row followed by a bunch of players right now. 7:20 pm EST. Check it out !

Edited July 13, 2010 by TomM

[Mreteuya]

Demonstrate what? Do you think a SAP Chart method of System selection is going to strangely appear out of thin air?

At this point its just an idea. It needs to be developed. I'm sorry you had trouble with SAP at your local casino but sometimes you need to go by what does best at a given casino at a given time. That is how I play and teach. That is one of the reasons it is always good to have multiple systems down pat. All of the guys playing it on the Vegas trip won as Andrea can confirm. But at Gold Coast it was far too choppy for SAP. So we played Sys 40 and killed them. I liked SAP for night play at my casino but not for morning play - too choppy. But I'm not talking about the SAP system, I'm only talking about using the chart. The SAP chart is just an organized way of counting events and comparing them to normal occurrence and each other. But every system in Maverick has its own event likes and dislikes. Those likes and dislikes appear loud and clear in the SAP chart. For instance, OTB4L likes high 2s and 3s and low 1's while SYS 40 likes high 1's and 2's with low 3 or mores. F2 likes streak and everything but 2s. F3 likes everything but 3s. RD1 likes high repeats and so forth. The SAP chart tells us all those things with dead accuracy and renews the information about 32 times during the shoe. The C/S count tells us whether we should be favoring the chop systems or the streak systems and to exactly what degree. Or we could go by a certain number of losses.

Rather than sit back and appraise only when we are already in trouble, why not appraise throughout the shoe? But I don't want to argue the point. That is for lesser forums and not what BTC is about.

Not too much fun is it when you get criticized?

How do I say this without sounding like an ass-hole? I don't think there is a way, so I'll just be blunt and truthful as always.

ACCOUNTABILITY.

Thats all anyone here ever wanted. For you to be accountable for what was promised.

For you to actually follow through when you say you will do something. Not a half-ass job that keeps everyone waiting.

You said you would give it a shot. Thus far, the posts I have seen only asks the your other paying customers to help you, or do the work for you.

You have like what, 20+ different systems on here, yet there isn't even a consensus of what to play, or how to play for that matter, by the oldest of members on here. What does that say?

Yes Andrea maybe was the best at SAP, but he is not even playing it anymore. Nor is he playing NU-SAP which requires one to Master multiple systems, yet he knows them all.

Papa Joe know all of them as well but he is off doing is own thing, claims to be making +10 per shoe in his 'private forum', yet he hasn't shared anything with the rest of the forum, and you haven't threatened him with a law suit.

I'm sure the other members are wondering why both of them hardly post anymore here. Maybe they are all part of PapaJoe's 'private-forum'. Thats fine. Nothing wrong with that.

But what about the rest of the members who have already PAID YOU and those who are STILL PAYING YOU?

Accountability.

I went and posted the "How to Win" thread on YOUR free forum, to help YOU get more members that PAY YOU. They joined, PAID YOU, because of what I said I would do for them.

I have have followed through and did what I said I would do. I remained accountable for following through and I did, without much support from you I might add.

All anyone here is asking is that you do the same. I hope we all won't be disappointed.

Accountability.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Mreteuya

[gablaw]

Did you see the whole shoe ? The reason I'm asking is a morning shoe today started 11:44 am EST today had a glitch and at hand # 8 I had just recorded and was about to bet and I looked away and when I looked back the board was erased and the history too. I don't recall exactly what I thought at the time as I was just sippin coffee and getting going. But I continued recording as if nothing had happened and the shoe went SAP 11, 10, 16, 24 and the shoe ended on hand #68. Had I not seen the beginning of the shoe erased I would have figured it as a 60 hand shoe. It was a nice balanced streaker as it was, longest straight run 7R, three 5's a 6R and a 4R . It was an easy shoe for RD-H the whole way even with the four lone 1's.

I haven't seen any short shoes lately but plenty of washing, some double team washes and occasionally a single dealer will wash at any time of day. I don't know their criteria for the shuffle changes now. Even though I have not seen a short shoe lately they may slip one in on occasion. Play cautiously if you do not see the whole shoe.

The nickel table froze up on me this morning so I turned on fun mode and played T-2 ( the $500.00 minimum job.) Both shoes pretty good. I flipped into my conservative progression and both shoes ended at +14.5. Really bumped up my fun account in a big hurry. Also the game moved along at the normal pace of about 1hour and 10 or 15 minutes per shoe. Maybe that was because the other table was down the whole time and they had more bandwidth to run the single table. I don't know. T-1 is back up and running now.

UPDATE: Oy, I just dropped into the nickel table at Bph and it is a about ½ way done. Has a nice OTB4L start then 13 Banks in a row followed by a bunch of players right now. 7:20 pm EST. Check it out !

I didn't see the beginning of the shoe so I suppose that could have happened. The good news is I was on that 13 run--the bad news is that I bet mostly single units on it. So I tried to fib the next run once it hit 5-no luck. Btw, this shoe was the second after their big deal 2 dealer wash.

[ECD]

Mark, nobody is busting on you. Why are you busting on me? I was trying to help you but it is very plain to see that you do not want my help. Fine. So be it. You are doing an excellent job by yourself anyway.

As I said earlier in the coffee talk lounge I have very serious ongoing family problems right now. I'm sorely needed elsewhere. Spending all my time in hospitals these days.

[Guest 400pounddaddy]

As with your idea now, how long does it take for your idea to turn into something practical this time? Since you are the master and with the most experience on Baccarat, isn't it you should already have something in mind which is playable before you throw out your idea?

Um that would be never as it turns out.

[ECD]

Ellis, I know exactly what my local casino is doing and trust me, my experience on SAP is no lesser than PJ or Andrea. I know we'll need to switch when certain counts from the SAP chart is hinting us but how many of the members here can do what you said? Just because a few of us can do it doesn't mean everyone can do it. I know there are still certain members that have joined your forum for couple years now and still having trouble with SAP. Is this what you want, to develop and sell some systems that only a few can play?

As with your idea now, how long does it take for your idea to turn into something practical this time? Since you are the master and with the most experience on Baccarat, isn't it you should already have something in mind which is playable before you throw out your idea?

They won, you lost. Mark does not want my help. You seem to be implying that I don't contribute enough. Very strange. I have 3200 posts on this forum plus another 10,000 on WinningWays which was the name of this forum before Keith changed it. Plus I've published 13 books on the subject. Mark has 675 posts and you have 126. My post avg about a page in length . The avg Bible has 1272 pages. If BTC had a dollar for every hour I've apparantly wasted on the phone with you trying to teach you something it would be the biggest month BTC ever had. I even sent people to your casino to help you. They told me you were hopeless. You gave me impossible playing conditions to work with. Nobody can win under those conditions. I told you that up front. Plus you have a severe gambling problem. Well, you are Mark's problem now. I'll only take so much abuse for a dollar an hour. If you'll excuse me I have important family matters to attend to.

Edited July 14, 2010 by ECD

[Baccplay]

They won, you lost. Mark does not want my help. You seem to be implying that I don't contribute enough. Very strange. I have 3200 posts on this forum plus another 10,000 on WinningWays which was the name of this forum before Keith changed it. Plus I've published 13 books on the subject. Mark has 675 posts and you have 126. My post avg about a page in length . The avg Bible has 1272 pages. If BTC had a dollar for every hour I've apparantly wasted on the phone with you trying to teach you something it would be the biggest month BTC ever had. I even sent people to your casino to help you. They told me you were hopeless. You gave me impossible playing conditions to work with. Nobody can win under those conditions. I told you that up front. Plus you have a severe gambling problem. Well, you are Mark's problem now. I'll only take so much abuse for a dollar an hour. If you'll excuse me I have important family matters to attend to.

You are correct, you have tons of methods here, each can win if apply correctly. One thing that you don't know is, I've been winning consistently and I've won all my money back from the days when you taught me how to beat my casino, but sadly it's not something you teach me. You did help me a lot before but one thing that you don't know is, I got countless email saying that you are not contributing enough to the forum, and even have doubt if you can ever help improving whatever is available here. You spent all your time in BaccaratForum to get members here only wanting to learn Maverick. If you know Maverick needs improvement, why are you waiting til now to suggest? And now you are accusing us that we don't need your help? What an excuse?

Plus who the heck did you send to my casino to help me? The only one that I've met in this forum came to me to learn SAP where you are having trouble fixing it. I haven't called you in months now and all you remember was the trouble I had BEFORE I used to called you regularly. Do you know why I don't call you anymore? It's because you don't keep your promise, you know what I'm talking about.

I helped you test tons of systems in the past but none of them hold up, I won't be this mad if I'm totally disappointed on you. Is this how you treat your customer?

Edited July 14, 2010 by Baccplay

[ECD]

I said you are Mark's problem now. I've got no use for anyone whom I've personally tried to help and then jumps on me when I'm down with other problems. If you are winning why are you so pissed off? You certainly don't sound like a winner. His name was Steve. How quickly we forget.

[Mreteuya]

Ellis, I’m sorry if you feel I’m busting on you, and we are all sorry that you have these medical issues with you and your last two family members who are deathly ill.

Maybe I over-reacted to your posts on the “Bet-Phoenix-Cutting it short” as well as the “Maverick” thread because I interpreted them as you saying instead of Maverick, we should go back to switching between multiple systems, and the way you wrote it, I sure felt that it seemed as you were busting on me. So I felt after all I have done to support you and your forum, posting to help you get more members to increase your bank account, not mine, to have you bust on me was pretty hurtful. Actually to now hear about PapaJo’s, private forum right here on your site, it makes me wonder how that would make other members here feel, who are paying and struggling? I know I was never invited to this forum.

If I am mistaken, I am man enough to admit it, and I apologize right here and now. I AM SORRY.

If you could do me the favor of trying to see it from my and many members stand point for just a quick second. I for one have struggled with winning consistently here until I developed Maverick. I’ve gotten similar feedback from many here. From a new member stand point, look at what happens:

You sign up with your hard earned money because of something you saw on the free portion of the forum, or from promotion on the ‘Baccarat Forum’. You are probably even skeptical at first, but you are hoping that it all works out. Then when you sign up you are pretty much left on your own to try and learn how to play. (Because you are busy as is understandable. We all get busy.) Everyone almost always gets directed to OTBL first. But then as you look around the forum, no one is playing it and there is no active thread going on. In fact you can't tell what anyone is consistently playing and winning with. All the recent activity seems to be on whatever ‘new system’ is going on at the time thread. So of course you don’t want to be left out, so you try to jump on that thread and learn that system as fast as you can.

Then you try your darnest to make that work, and it goes on for awhile and it doesn’t seem to be working. You are waiting for input from Ellis, the leader of the place who you have already placed great trust, admiration, and given credit to, and the status is he is still working on things. In the meantime you start to look at other things around the forum to play and win with.

All of a sudden, a new thread pops up, or the leader you were counting on, the reason you joined the forum in the first place, appears with a new system that seems like “We’ve got a tiger by the tail here.” The new system pops up or it’s a revision of an older one. A flurry of excitement and activity starts again. Someone has a good shoe with it. It gets really active again, and the cycle starts all over again.

You still find yourself back to not knowing what to play, how to play it and what to do as you are still not winning. A month goes by, then two, then three. Before you know it, it’s been six months and there still is no consensus on the forum on how to play. The leader that you are counting is not around that often but you see him promoting his business on other forums. You wonder why he is not spending more time on his own place, trying to bring everything and everyone together playing the same way and winning?

Now in your defense, let’s face it you obviously don't have the time to spend with all the new members that sign up here, you have family problems and are needed elsewhere as you said, plus you have to spend time on ‘Baccarat Forum’ marketing and defending yourself. In addition, it makes good business sense that the more time you spend selling yourself elsewhere, the more people join your forum, and the more money you make. No one can blame you for that.

But try to remember that there are people who are counting on you. New members and old members alike who are still struggling to find a way on here to consistently play and win. So now everyone is frustrated, and it’s been brewing especially with the old members for a while now judging by all the e-mails I have been getting. Maybe this is why PapaJoe said he started that private forum with Wolfat and Norm so that they wouldn’t be bothered by newbie questions and they could brain storm ways for a uniformed way to play and win easily, as maybe they are all playing differently themselves.

In my opinion, from a business and marketing standpoint anyway, the best defense is to have a good offense, and the best offense is to have a good defense. If you were to have a bunch of people consistently winning with the same way you play, they will do ALL the marketing and defending for you.

If you could just stick to teaching the same method or style of playing, so that the average person can play with and win consistently, take a look at what would happen:

1- Your marketing would take care of itself. Your mass of winning members would take over. Look at how Maverick got to Baccarat Forums in the first place. I never promoted it there. That place is a waste of energy.

2- You wouldn’t have to constantly defend yourself on other forums. Again your mass of winning members would totally pummel garnabby and archer. The best defense is to have others defending you. It is more credible. When the other people on BacForums see how many people come to you defense who are winning, watch membership rise.

3- Your old members would return with a vengeance. Especially once they start winning consistently. Then look at what would happen when they step in the casino. Other players would ask where the learned and you would get referrals.

4- Teaching new members that you get to join, would be easy because you would be teaching the same methods, and you would have a whole bunch of followers who are able to help because its all the same.

The quandary here as it has always been, that it has not been made clear to members new and old alike what system out of your 20+ should we play, or how you prefer us to play so that we can win consistently.

Now today you have just stated:

… my last two family members are deathly ill and require all my time plus Keith has committed me to two new manuals I'm trying to get out.

I have decided to go back to teaching only my style of play anyway. From all I've seen on this forum and others I'm totally convinced that it is the best way Baccarat can be played from the standpoints of winnings, consistency, risk and simplicity of play. Multi component systems wear me out and overall make less than matching the right base system to the right table just as we demonstrated in Vegas. To me, that makes the most money at the least risk while affording you far greater staying power due to the simplicity of it.

I take this to mean that you believe that the only way to play is to continually match the system to the shoe in front of you, and then constantly switch based on the SAP chart.

All anyone wants here is accountability because the fact of the mater is we are all counting on you. In the past when it was said that this manual or that manual was forthcoming to fix this or that, unfortunately due to Murphy’s law or whatever, shit happens right? Can’t help it.

But remember there are new members and old members alike who are still waiting, counting on, and in fact depending on you to follow through. I am one of them. That’s why they keep paying, or have not asked for a refund yet. But after awhile, you start to feel let down… can you feel me here?

At least now you have made it perfectly clear where you are coming from, what we can expect from you and your style of teaching. That is good. At least we all know now, and it’s made upfront to everyone, so they come in with eyes wide open.

I believe this is what you are saying but I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Again, if I am wrong, I apologize.

Even though in your own words this way or philosophy is complicated, as per your quote responding to remembering all the options playing multiple systems:

That is all VERY EXCELLENT advice Mark. But how many can remember all that during the heat of casino play?

You still feel that “I’m totally convinced that it is the best way Baccarat can be played from the standpoints of winnings, consistency, risk and simplicity of play.”

What you want us to realize is: If that is the case and its complicated, so be it. That is the nature of the beast. It would be futile to fight it so we shouldn’t. We must learn it this way to win, so the bottom line is learn it. So as the most solid base foundation to play baccarat per Ellis, here it is:

ELLIS'S PHILOSOPHY AND METHODS.

YOU MUST LEARN THIS FLUENTLY AT A BARE MINIMUM

SAP- charting of events

OTB4L

TB4L

System 40

Not sure if you want everyone needs to also learn the below:

O/T count?

C/S count?

NET Betting?

F2?

AD/OT?

RULES

Game start - Wait for 4 events to decide which of the above systems to play, unless you see a 4 in a row, then bet the run will continue.

Swtiching- the all impotant process. As I understand it….

After EVERY play (not event or loss) consult your SAP-chart to see if you should bet opposite or repeat based on if that very play creates a situation where:

IF 1's and 2's are > than 3's and 4's, THEN Switch and play Sys 40 for that next play only.

IF 1's and 4's are > than 2's and 3's, THEN Switch and play TB4L for that next play only.

IF 1's and 3's are > than 2's and 4's, THEN Switch and play TB4L or Sys 40 for that next play only.

IF 2's and 3's are > than 1's and 4's, THEN Switch and play OTB4L for that next play only.

IF 2's and 4's are > than 1's and 3's, THEN Switch and play OTB4L for that next play only.

IF 3's and 4's are > than 1's and 2's, THEN Switch and play Repeats for that next play only.

IF all events are = or tied, then OTB4L or Net Bet

After every play repeat process checking the SAP-chart for frequency of events.

Once you see a 4 in a row, you need to decide if you are to stay on the run betting it will go to 5+ or betting it will stop at 4, based on what happened in the past events.

If this is close, is this where one would start?

Edited July 15, 2010 by Mreteuya

[ECD]

I have no medical issues of my own at the moment except perhaps mental. But I am in no condition to teach anybody anything at the moment.

No I don't think my way is the only way to play. But 30 years has proven to me that it is the best way.

Therefore I intend to write an extensive manual on the way I play and post it on this forum as my last contribution. This will take some time because Keith has committed me to a BJ manual first and has already sold presubsciptions. This has happened at the worst possible time for me. I will do these last two things and then I'm committing all my time to my book The Player.

Oh, I have also been working behind the scenes on another system called the 4D with one of our members. It automates the way I play. It is a multi count systems that pinpoints the exact strength of every possible bias in the shoe at hand. Test are indicating a 100% win rate whether U1D2M2 or flat betting. The idea is to play this system with a huge unit size. I'm not sure what we will do with it, perhaps just play it. But it would make a good sign off to a fun career.

Watch for my manual. I don't think you guys will be hearing from me for a while. I just have more pressing things to attend to right now. Good bye for now and good luck!

[Mreteuya]

I have no medical issues of my own at the moment except perhaps mental. But I am in no condition to teach anybody anything at the moment.

No I don't think my way is the only way to play. But 30 years has proven to me that it is the best way.

Therefore I intend to write an extensive manual on the way I play and post it on this forum as my last contribution. This will take some time because Keith has committed me to a BJ manual first and has already sold presubsciptions. This has happened at the worst possible time for me. I will do these last two things and then I'm committing all my time to my book The Player.

Oh, I have also been working behind the scenes on another system called the 4D with one of our members. It automates the way I play. It is a multi count systems that pinpoints the exact strength of every possible bias in the shoe at hand. Test are indicating a 100% win rate whether U1D2M2 or flat betting. The idea is to play this system with a huge unit size. I'm not sure what we will do with it, perhaps just play it. But it would make a good sign off to a fun career.

Watch for my manual. I don't think you guys will be hearing from me for a while. I just have more pressing things to attend to right now. Good bye for now and good luck!

Okay Master Ellis - looking forward to it.

Ellis has just said that he is working on a New Final Manual. So, personally I will wait for that to come out before I try any attempt to play that way.

In the mean time, I will continue to play my Maverick and Maverick Ultimate which are both consistently pumping out on average +20 units for me.

MaverickUltimateMark@gmail.com

Edited July 16, 2010 by Mreteuya

[ECD]

No apology necessary Mark but Accepted anyway.

[gablaw]

This shoe at BPH scored +47 from play 9 with RD straight through Wish I played it! What happened to chop?

B33111111161

B3112215221

P331114331

P39212

[Norm A]

This shoe at BPH scored +47 from play 9 with RD straight through Wish I played it! What happened to chop?

B33111111161

B3112215221

P331114331

P39212

Hi Jerry

If you have time could you please post this shoe in scorecard format to show how it would be played to get +47

and what would have made you go RD at hand 9

Thanks

Norm